>Can I ask what the intention is for stealth-based characters to counter stacked magic?

Intention and DR PvP do not belong in the same discussion. If anyone ever drew up a basic balance spreadsheet or counter diagram it was years too late.

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"Warrior Mages don't bother covering up their disasters.

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I don't really have any original ideas on it. I can compare it to other muds I played with stealth. The best designed one I felt was stealth was only used for the initial attack and gave you some extra damage at the start of the fight. However, the guilds were a lot more balanced so stealth was only a minor part. It wasn't so integral like it is. I think the main problem is survival prime without stealth is just lackluster when it comes to PVP.

In my opinion, stealth should be split into two things: how much you are hidden and how much an opponent is aware of your presence. This could be splitting "stealth" (opponents awareness of you) and "invisibility" (opponents ability to actually see you, whether in hiding or not) like Armifer suggests. These should be tracked on sliding scales rather than straight binary on/off values.

So then your "stealth" provides a +OF to you and your "invisibility" provides a -OF to your oppoennt, based on those sliding values. That keeps stealth having dual purposes in offense and defense.

Then various abilities and actions could modify the various "stealth" and "invisibility" levels. Spells like Eye of Kertigen or Divine Radiance could be debuffs to invisibility. Any sort of action taken would affect the "stealth" level, meaning you could still have powerful alpha strikes based on it but it might take time to recover. Watch could provide a debuff to the stealth level at the cost of not allowing spell preps or something. With sliding scales acting as + or - modifiers there's plenty of room for abilities or actions to have an effect.

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So basically we're breaking stealth into the cleric spell Malediction coupled with HydraHex?

That would be fun. Especially if you could adjust your sliding scale as a hider (more focused on the OF side or the DF side) and the victim.

Interal cooldown on offensive stealthy attacks, much like many other systems in the game. Ambush, Backstab, Poach, Cast, or just plain Swing.

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"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh

>>Cool, same applies to TM, debil weapons, tactics and shield bash.

Heavy TM spells and combat maneuvers, which have accuracy/damage bonuses much like the stealth maneuvers, do indeed have a significant cooldown.

Debilitation abilities slowly build resistance in the target and become less effective with every subsequent use.

Stealth provides massive benefits as both the best offense and defense in the game currently and there are no drawbacks besides needing to maybe rehide again, or possibly getting spotted and having to fight on even ground, like everyone else.

I will say that survival guild abilities currently rely way too heavily on stealth IMO and they could use some serious non-stealth-related buffing to their abilities.

>>> Stealth is absolutely determined by proximity - it is harder to hide on someone at melee than at missile, and many many MMOs absolutely allow you to re-enter stealth whilst engaged, and those that have a CD, as I just mentioned, typically have a very very short CD.

I can't say that I have played a huge number of MMO's, but in my experience the exact opposite of what you say is true. Unless the following games have changed since I last played them:

1) WOW - one alpha strike and a long (>1 minute) CD to re-enter stealth. Otherwise you need to leave combat.
2) SWTOR - one alpha strike and a long (>1 minute) CD to re-enter stealth. Otherwise you need to leave combat.
3) ESO - One can enter stealth at any time, but it is not invisibility per se like DR and the above MMO's. Invisibility is spammable but costs mana and last for a very short time.
4) GW2 - Stealth lasts for a limited time but players can re-enter stealth after a short delay after they attack
5) Rift - one alpha strike, IIRC you need to leave combat to re-enter stealth

In all of the above games the stealth classes have abilities to survive after leaving stealth and are pretty hard hitters even when visible. In SWTOR and, IIRC, Rift one the tank classes happens to be a stealth class. Personally I don't think that the right solution is to make an alpha strike, immunity, alpha strike pattern the default strategy. Thieves and Rangers need to be able to hold their own to at least some degree outside of stealth if they already cannot.

>WOW - one alpha strike and a long (>1 minute) CD to re-enter stealth. Otherwise you need to leave combat.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Vanish

>SWTOR - one alpha strike and a long (>1 minute) CD to re-enter stealth. Otherwise you need to leave combat.

Works the same as WoW, except also has LoS detection (higher chance to see targets in front of you)

>ESO - One can enter stealth at any time, but it is not invisibility per se like DR and the above MMO's. Invisibility is spammable but costs mana and last for a very short time.

Yup, but it's also usable whenever.

>GW2 - Stealth lasts for a limited time but players can re-enter stealth after a short delay after they attack

Yup, and it is also usable whenever.

> Rift - one alpha strike, IIRC you need to leave combat to re-enter stealth

Nope, same deal as in WoW, the two stealth specs for Rogues allow perma-Stealth, and it breaks targeting.

EVE even has cloaking, but it isn't possible if someone has locked onto you. You can break target, but that's a different matter.

>In all of the above games the stealth classes have abilities to survive after leaving stealth and are pretty hard hitters even when visible. In SWTOR and, IIRC, Rift one the tank classes happens to be a stealth class. Personally I don't think that the right solution is to make an alpha strike, immunity, alpha strike pattern the default strategy. Thieves and Rangers need to be able to hold their own to at least some degree outside of stealth if they already cannot.

Rift adheres to the Trinity + Support, and has made the choice that each of the four classes be able to do everything, so, yes, there is a Rogue class that tanks, but no, it is not also a stealth spec. In all the games you listed, Stealth is used for alpha strike, but it is also certainly the fundamental way that class/spec plays out. They aren't supposed to be exchanging blows, they're supposed to be stealthing, striking, repeating. It's indeed one of the very reasons AoE and CC are effective - it breaks stealth or prevents them from hitting you.

>What should stealth be in our videogame? I mean, should it be a setup for powerful alphas? Low-CD state for a more diverse set of offensive skills? Should it be a defensive stance instead?

For me (I played a thief for longer than I've played a paladin), it's always been about the alpha. In my mind, stealth combat in 3.x should involve an alpha strike, then some unhidden flavor depending on guild (e.g. switch weapons, apply debilitations, use ranged attacks, etc.), then some more stealth attacks off cooldown. The current method is backstab/snipe/cast, hide/invis, backstab/snipe/cast, hide/invis, repeat. The only strategy falls around making that work, and making the biggest attack while minimizing damage by staying hidden.

FWIW, I don't have any problem with never being able to find someone hidden when they're not actively attacking me, and there should be tools available to stealthies for being effective without stealth.

Note: I'm trying to temper bias because I recognize part of my problem with the DR stealth paradigm is a paladin problem. Paladins don't have any good anti-stealth or effective way of attacking at range sans debilitation, which can lead to a lot of frustration. I often can't see/attack someone who's attacking me and knows how to leverage all his/her tools (incl. stun-hiders, invis/EM, stealth/perc debils, etc.). I mean, it's not at all rare to eat a big hit and notice invis/EM/stun-hider trigger before I get the chance to reciprocate. I've also fought a lot of very good stealthies who know/knew how to leverage their other abilities (e.g. shadowstep against pulsing anti-stealth) to land their attacks without taking much damage in spite of Watch. You can be very effective if you know how to exploit cast RT and pulse times against guilds where that was necessary. Can't win 'em all, especially against strong clerics/bards, but you can be effective.

>FAMEBRIGHT: I can do this as a WM. Who seriously uses TM in PvP though?

I think you know as well as I do that you can do that by either preparing and casting VeI, or preparing and casting AC. Neither of those represent costless actions, and indeed, AC has some serious downsides itself.

>Warbie: Paladins don't have any good anti-stealth or effective way of attacking at range sans debilitation

Across the guilds, it seems to me that Paladins have the worst capacity for dealing with stealth, simply by virtue of having only SmH as an AoE, and no AoE SvS. I suppose they can always try to BoT, but that's hardly a solution.

>DIMINISHEDANGEL: STALK, AMBUSH, POACH, SNIPE, and BACKSTAB represent extensions of stealth. Yes, they are not granular within a single skill (they still require weapon ranks or what-not versus just the weapon skill) but then stealth is an entire form of combat, and offers defensive versatility that CCM or tactical combos do not.

Stalk is not really relevant, and Ambush, Poach, and Backstab are all 'attacks from hiding'. Snipe/Vivi are 'attacks from hiding and stay hidden'. They're not the equivalent of Slice vs Chop vs Weave, and again, the point is that Stealth is a binary - you are either successful in remaining hidden, or you are not. Conversely, if I hit someone with a sword or spell, I can do anywhere from zero damage to them, to quite a bit of damage to them.

>I'm not sure what you're referencing that isn't rank-based. Even WATCH still relies on base ranks to get the job done.

WATCH is not based on anything - it is merely a free +Perception specifically against the Stealther. My point is that there is no equivalent like this in the game - self-cast barriers and buffs are determined by the casters skill in Magic.

>Yeah, and you also get a massive bonus to doing it at range, which frankly needs to change before I agree with removing WATCH. Outside of WATCH stealth heavily favors the hider because of this silly penalty to perception.

I'd be interested in hearing confirmation that there's a BONUS to doing it at range. AFAIK, non-engaged or ranged hiding attempts are the baseline, and there is a penalty as you get closer to your target.

> WATCH isn't penalizing hiders, it's equalizing the playing field, though I dislike it's use as a bandaid in place of what should be a more cohesive solution, like the proposed "heat" system.

I disagree - WATCH is specifically penalizing hiders because it is negating the possibility of hiding. The issue to a broken system (binarized stealth) is not to say 'ok no more stealth', but to fix what isn't working. Similar to all the rebalancing that has occurred with other systems. I.e., if CL was doing too much damage, the solution wasn't to shut down CL, it was to fix the amount of damage CL does. Remember when TKT used to murder anything dead, irrespective of TM ranks or mana used? They didn't scrap TKT, they fixed it.

>>> re: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Vanish

isn't this ability exactly as I described it: "one alpha strike and a long (>1 minute) CD to re-enter stealth"

You claimed:

>>> and those that have a CD, as I just mentioned, typically have a very very short CD.

I guess it depends on your definition of a very very short CD. I would define it as no longer than 10s and definitely as long as 90s. Currently without watch DR has a CD of whatever the RT of the attack is (2-6 seconds depending on weapon and attack used). Just out of curiosity sake would you be happy no longer being able to enter stealth in combat at will if you win a skill check but having a vanish ability? Of course most of the stealth classes already have that if they use their invisibility spell / khri so that would really be a negative change. And after that we would have the marked increase in difficulty actually training stealth.

>>> I'm not sure any of these games really compare though.

I agree completely; stealth in DR is its own entity. My point was that DR's stealth is probably less restrictive than an of those five MMOs. Consequently, saying that "many many MMOs absolutely allow you to re-enter stealth whilst engaged, and those that have a CD, as I just mentioned, typically have a very very short CD" and therefore DR should make rapidly re-entering stealth easier is not a logical argument. Unless, as mentioned above, we put a 60-120 second delay on it. But then we don't have our current stealth system at all.

>I feel that the counters to stealth shouldn't be 'never let the stealther use stealth', but rather, rely on AoEs or increase your own defenses in anticipation of an impending stealth attack. Some of those counters exist in DR-land, but presently the entire stealth system is basically handled as a binary. There's nothing wrong with Survival Primes being shoehorned into Stealth, just like there's nothing wrong with Magic Primes being shoehorned into TM, but it's rather silly that literally everyone has access to the anti-Stealth tool that is WATCH.

Is it really that bad, though? Pre-nerf, watch was really bad and I supported its removal. After the watch nerf, I've struggled to see someone with maybe 70 ranks more stealth than I have perception. The same person could take ~15% vit with one backstab and I had 250+ more base ranks in all armors than the individual had in BS, roughly equal (tert) evasion to BS, and 350+ more ranks in shield than the individual had in small edged skill. Meanwhile, I struggle to hit someone with average defenses roughly equal with my weapon skill.

I'm not saying someone shouldn't be able to do that with a BS. I want BS to be strong. My point is it's silly to be able to do that back-to-back-to-back-to-back with relatively little risk.

The frustration is even worse against rangers [for me]. Between re-triggering HB web, EM/stun-hiders and the ability to do their most damage at range, it's laughable how little control I have against an even level opponent (i.e. weapon skill = weapon skill) in spite of watch + GoL.

I love PvP, but I stopped participating because of issues like these and others (low to 0 damage in even level combat, barriers, uneven OP spells/abilities, virtually non-existent melee combat, etc.) If you're in that sweet spot around 300-500 ranks, then maybe watch is more OP than I've experienced, but PvP is generally more enjoyable at those ranks in any case and there are ways around watch, when it actually works, because I've witnessed them first hand. At the very least, watch is no less frustrating for the stealther than stealth is for the non-stealthy opponent, but I don't think that's the case. I think the scales still tip in favor of stealth due to various auto-hide/invis items and abilities and passive bonuses that stack with mundane stealth.

>The mechanics of DR being what they are, I would consider that a nerf, in the same way that I would consider, say, only being able to use TM or Weapons for the first 10s of a fight, and being unable to use them for another minute and 20s.

My problem with this is that it treats "stealth" as its own attack rather than something that makes attacks or defense more effective. IMO stealth shouldn't be the same this as weapons or TM. Stealth isn't a damage ability. Stealth modifies that damage ability. The equivalent is saying "you can only cast this one powerful TM spell in the first 10 seconds then need a cool down" or "you can only swint mega sword o'doom once then need a cool down.

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Armifer,

In an effort to delve into the substance of stealth some in lieu of this current discussion, I've reposted some old suggestions in the thief folder. I think it would help alleviate the problem some and may perhaps inspire an idea if I'm lucky. Anyways, there's more there if you like.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.

Thanks! And yeah don't burn out on anything. Life is too short for that kind of stress.

Monster Elec

You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.