Previous
>Oh really?
>Added feedback about how well you learned (same order as APPRAISE <critter>) so non-guilded Thieves have an idea where they are relative to the item
There's a new line after every theft. It will say something like, "You learned quite badly from this nearly trivial theft."
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
DR-JAVAC
BADGOPHER
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/02/2016 10:24 PM CDT
>With 19 in thievery perfume marks as more than easiest, yet trains less than other items that mark as easier.
Mark is an appraisal check, basically. So if your ranks in appraisal are low, it's going to be erratic?
Mark is an appraisal check, basically. So if your ranks in appraisal are low, it's going to be erratic?
SEMYON
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/02/2016 11:19 PM CDT
>Mark is an appraisal check, basically. So if your ranks in appraisal are low, it's going to be erratic?
Appraise and perception are both >10 ranks above thievery and I got the 'highly confident' messaging, so I don't think that's it. And thievery is really the major determinant in mark (I only get uncertains on items harder than I can steal), and it's usually pretty consistent for the same item.
I'm going to sleep and test some more shops in the morning though, see if I can do it again.
Appraise and perception are both >10 ranks above thievery and I got the 'highly confident' messaging, so I don't think that's it. And thievery is really the major determinant in mark (I only get uncertains on items harder than I can steal), and it's usually pretty consistent for the same item.
I'm going to sleep and test some more shops in the morning though, see if I can do it again.
DEFOL
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 02:41 AM CDT
<< And... I'm assuming this makes all the Stealing lists on Elanthipedia useless.
No, triviality ranks remain the same, if i remember correctly.
Edit: Ok, i think they were technically removed but you just stop getting exp at that point even if i doesn't give you the trivial item message.
Item difficulty did however change. That means popular scripts like progressive stealing is now indeed pretty useless, or at least the item ranges it provides out of the box.
No, triviality ranks remain the same, if i remember correctly.
Edit: Ok, i think they were technically removed but you just stop getting exp at that point even if i doesn't give you the trivial item message.
Item difficulty did however change. That means popular scripts like progressive stealing is now indeed pretty useless, or at least the item ranges it provides out of the box.
MORBIOUS
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 11:27 AM CDT
This is probably unrelated to the new shoplifting tweaks (which are a great boon for me, thanks), but I've never noticed an item change materials like that before. Quite a change in difficulty.
H>mark doublet
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a pleated woolen doublet.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should not prove difficult for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be easy to avoid attention.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
A breeze through the door brushes against the silver bells on the wrought iron stand, causing a soft chiming melody to echo about the shop.
HR>
>steal doublet
Moving stealthily, you manage to grab a soft coral silk doublet right from underneath the seamstress Miakoda's very nose.
You learned exceptionally well from this nearly impossible theft.
The seamstress Miakoda points to where you lie concealed and begins to shout loudly for help.
You come out of hiding.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
You put your doublet in your sailcloth pack.
H>mark doublet
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a pleated woolen doublet.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it should not prove difficult for you.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it should be easy to avoid attention.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
HR>
A breeze through the door brushes against the silver bells on the wrought iron stand, causing a soft chiming melody to echo about the shop.
HR>
>steal doublet
Moving stealthily, you manage to grab a soft coral silk doublet right from underneath the seamstress Miakoda's very nose.
You learned exceptionally well from this nearly impossible theft.
The seamstress Miakoda points to where you lie concealed and begins to shout loudly for help.
You come out of hiding.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
You put your doublet in your sailcloth pack.
ABSOLON
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 01:49 PM CDT
Did a couple stealing runs yesterday on my Thief with 192 now 193 ranks. Here's my two cents.
1. Experience differences exist between the messaging levels, but because the exp per steal is relatively small it can feel a bit underwhelming. This is just a perspective thing, and not actually a mechanical issue, however, so I don't think it needs to be adjusted much if at all. E.g. the message says I learn exceptionally well, but only gain a single mindstate. Now in comparison, if I learn poorly or even adequately I might not even get that mindstate, so it's relative, but taken on its own there can be a perceived disparity between the message and the experience gained.
2. Stealing multiple items is important. The first steal is crappy experience no matter the difficulty. The second steal gives more, the third even more, and so on. This has to be balanced against the difficulty. I found that a good judge for me when to stop is to based the number of steals on the quality of experience I was getting. E.g. if I learned exceptionally well then I could steal twice. If I learned adequately then I stole 4 times. If I learned anything less then I stole 6 times. After that many attempts, the risk became too high and I got arrested more often than not.
3. Marking only allows you to do it 3 times without risk. 4 with a bit of risk. I didn't tempt 5 or more. This can be frustrating, especially during this figuring your new items out phase. I'm not sure how to make this better without trivializing the risk, though. And I can't even decide if trivializing the risk isn't a bad thing or not.
Overall, I like the changes as they are. I was able to lock stealing using about half the shops I was required to before the changes and didn't even have to go to Arthe Dale, let alone Leth Deriel like used to be required.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
1. Experience differences exist between the messaging levels, but because the exp per steal is relatively small it can feel a bit underwhelming. This is just a perspective thing, and not actually a mechanical issue, however, so I don't think it needs to be adjusted much if at all. E.g. the message says I learn exceptionally well, but only gain a single mindstate. Now in comparison, if I learn poorly or even adequately I might not even get that mindstate, so it's relative, but taken on its own there can be a perceived disparity between the message and the experience gained.
2. Stealing multiple items is important. The first steal is crappy experience no matter the difficulty. The second steal gives more, the third even more, and so on. This has to be balanced against the difficulty. I found that a good judge for me when to stop is to based the number of steals on the quality of experience I was getting. E.g. if I learned exceptionally well then I could steal twice. If I learned adequately then I stole 4 times. If I learned anything less then I stole 6 times. After that many attempts, the risk became too high and I got arrested more often than not.
3. Marking only allows you to do it 3 times without risk. 4 with a bit of risk. I didn't tempt 5 or more. This can be frustrating, especially during this figuring your new items out phase. I'm not sure how to make this better without trivializing the risk, though. And I can't even decide if trivializing the risk isn't a bad thing or not.
Overall, I like the changes as they are. I was able to lock stealing using about half the shops I was required to before the changes and didn't even have to go to Arthe Dale, let alone Leth Deriel like used to be required.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
DR-JAVAC
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 03:04 PM CDT
>No, triviality ranks remain the same, if i remember correctly.
Triviality ranks still exist, and message. They also changed.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
Triviality ranks still exist, and message. They also changed.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
DEFOL
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 03:16 PM CDT
<< the message says I learn exceptionally well, but only gain a single mindstate.
You're right, the messages do look a bit weird this way but i guess we all advocated for this change. I think most of us agreed that things would be better if we didn't have to travel around so much and the only way to cut down on traveling was to add more round times in the mix. i.e. force people to steal more items in every shop. Imagine if you could get 5 mindstates for stealing one difficult item -- it's a 5 second steal vs 5 x 5 second steal.
I guess having to steal more items compensated a little bit for cutting travel but i still think we're not there yet and probably wasn't ready for live yet either. In my case around 5 and a half minutes for a lock, a little too fast IMO.
You're right, the messages do look a bit weird this way but i guess we all advocated for this change. I think most of us agreed that things would be better if we didn't have to travel around so much and the only way to cut down on traveling was to add more round times in the mix. i.e. force people to steal more items in every shop. Imagine if you could get 5 mindstates for stealing one difficult item -- it's a 5 second steal vs 5 x 5 second steal.
I guess having to steal more items compensated a little bit for cutting travel but i still think we're not there yet and probably wasn't ready for live yet either. In my case around 5 and a half minutes for a lock, a little too fast IMO.
THAYET
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 03:18 PM CDT
I'm noticing I get caught pretty consistently at my third grab on "acceptably" items myself.
Thieves seem to have a major edge. Or I need to stick to "poorly" items and rely on the exp mod. Not sure yet.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thieves seem to have a major edge. Or I need to stick to "poorly" items and rely on the exp mod. Not sure yet.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
ABSOLON
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 03:26 PM CDT
<<Thieves seem to have a major edge.
I suspect it is urban bonus, confidence and plunder that does this.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I suspect it is urban bonus, confidence and plunder that does this.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
FENRUS-KOR
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 03:28 PM CDT
Loving the changes, thanks for working on this Javac.
DEFOL
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 03:30 PM CDT
<< I'm noticing I get caught pretty consistently at my third grab on "acceptably" items myself.
Yea, i think "acceptably" is a pretty wide range. With some items i get 3, others 4 but i have not yet been able to reproduce the results JPIZ posted earlier.
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/Survival%20Skills%20-%20Stealth/view/3565
Fiona
Stole 6 Eleven Telos (Not Difficult; trained acceptably), caught on the 6th. Went from 11/34 to 18/34.
Stitchery
Stole 8 adjectiveless gowns (Not difficult; trained acceptably), caught on the 8th. 18/34 - 27/34.
Yea, i think "acceptably" is a pretty wide range. With some items i get 3, others 4 but i have not yet been able to reproduce the results JPIZ posted earlier.
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Abilities,%20Skills%20and%20Magic/Survival%20Skills%20-%20Stealth/view/3565
Fiona
Stole 6 Eleven Telos (Not Difficult; trained acceptably), caught on the 6th. Went from 11/34 to 18/34.
Stitchery
Stole 8 adjectiveless gowns (Not difficult; trained acceptably), caught on the 8th. 18/34 - 27/34.
BADGOPHER
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 05:55 PM CDT
>I'm noticing I get caught pretty consistently at my third grab on "acceptably" items myself.
You mentioned it, but my thief is getting 5+ acceptably thefts most of the time, so it may be a primary bonus, or may be boosts as Absolon said.
You mentioned it, but my thief is getting 5+ acceptably thefts most of the time, so it may be a primary bonus, or may be boosts as Absolon said.
BADGOPHER
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 06:11 PM CDT
So, for my own experiments, mark seems wonky.
Shop: Malik the True Bard, Instruments and Picks
Item: lyre
Weight: 15 stone
Appraisal cost: 250 kronar
Shop cost: 270 dokora
Dims: 5x3x1
Item: mandolin
Weight: 15 stone
Appraisal cost: 625 kronar
Shop cost: 631 dokora
Dims: 5x3x1
Skills: 302 stealth, 212 thievery, 330 appraisal, 423 perception
The mandolin 'should' be at least half as easy as the lyre since they share every metric the same except cost. But they mark exactly the same?
Marks:
HR> mark mandolin
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a mandolin.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it may be troublesome to lift.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
HR> mark lyre
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a lyre.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it may be troublesome to lift.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Shop: Malik the True Bard, Instruments and Picks
Item: lyre
Weight: 15 stone
Appraisal cost: 250 kronar
Shop cost: 270 dokora
Dims: 5x3x1
Item: mandolin
Weight: 15 stone
Appraisal cost: 625 kronar
Shop cost: 631 dokora
Dims: 5x3x1
Skills: 302 stealth, 212 thievery, 330 appraisal, 423 perception
The mandolin 'should' be at least half as easy as the lyre since they share every metric the same except cost. But they mark exactly the same?
Marks:
HR> mark mandolin
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a mandolin.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it may be troublesome to lift.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
HR> mark lyre
You begin to carefully size up your chances at nabbing a lyre.
Considering actually grabbing the item, it may be troublesome to lift.
Regarding getting away with the theft, it'll be troublesome to be unnoticed.
You feel highly confident in the accuracy of your judgement.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
ABSOLON
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 06:25 PM CDT
Having done a few more shoplifting runs today, I've noticed that it's a lot more manageable to do without needing a script. Simply due to not needing the sheer volume of items that we used to need before. I don't actually mind going around to the 6 or 7 shops and manually stealing the stuff I need to lock. Before, there was no well I would manually do a stealing run because I would quickly lose interest and/or patience with the number of items needed to steal.
I am much preferring this new system. Thanks!
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I am much preferring this new system. Thanks!
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
HEATHCHRISTINE
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 06:38 PM CDT
>I'm noticing I get caught pretty consistently at my third grab on "acceptably" items myself.
I don't steal more than 2 at acceptably. I did a lot of runs on test and had to shy away from items that were more difficult that acceptably. Even with acceptably I'd be getting caught nearly once a run.
Jalika
NECKHOFF
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 07:13 PM CDT
With 303 ranks of stealth and 125 ranks of thievery, I am not learning any stealth from stealing while hidden on items that state: "You learned acceptably from this theft."
Is this expected behavior?
Is this expected behavior?
ABSOLON
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 07:30 PM CDT
<<Is this expected behavior?
Likely, given the disparity. I learn just fine with Stealth about 25 ranks less than my Thievery, fwiw.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
Likely, given the disparity. I learn just fine with Stealth about 25 ranks less than my Thievery, fwiw.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
THAYET
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/03/2016 10:11 PM CDT
Please make shoplifting award Stealth experience based on the difficulty of the grab instead of comparing it straight to your Stealth ranks. It is silly that I can do something risky and expensive and still not learn the skill, even though it's clearly being contested.
>> I don't steal more than 2 at acceptably. I did a lot of runs on test and had to shy away from items that were more difficult that acceptably. Even with acceptably I'd be getting caught nearly once a run.
Yeah, this just seems to be the case for non-Thieves then. Just worth noting I suppose.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>> I don't steal more than 2 at acceptably. I did a lot of runs on test and had to shy away from items that were more difficult that acceptably. Even with acceptably I'd be getting caught nearly once a run.
Yeah, this just seems to be the case for non-Thieves then. Just worth noting I suppose.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
CASHAV3
MIKEYROCKS
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
06/05/2016 04:37 PM CDT
For giggles I ran everyone's favorite progressive stealing script. Previously I wouldn't get mind locked even after hitting Xing, Arthe, and Leth. I locked BEFORE even going over to Leth with only 3-4 items because difficult enough that I received the message:
Considering actually grabbing the item, it may give you some difficulty to lift.
Regarding getting away with the theft, perhaps it's a little risky.
and
You learned rather well from this difficult theft.
Now that so much travel isn't required I will likely write my own script and streamline. Just wanted to say thank you for making this happen!
Also, I second the request to have this train stalking as well. If the item is teaching thievery than it is taking a bit of stealth to be successful.
Thanks again
DR-JAVAC
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
08/11/2016 06:50 PM CDT
This somehow slipped through the cracks and never made it into The Fallen. It is there now.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
BADGOPHER
Re: Shoplifting EXP Tweaks in Test
08/11/2016 07:20 PM CDT
I'm shocked Javac isn't perfect!
Anyway, thanks again for the stealing tweaks.
Anyway, thanks again for the stealing tweaks.
