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Perception should cap at the same ranks stealth does roughly on a mob.
COLLECT/FORAGE should stop teaching perception at like, 150-200 ranks if that.
I understand it has non-combat applications but it is by and large a combat skill and should be treated like one.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
THAYET
WILTONQU
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/19/2016 09:32 PM CST
The problem is there is so few ways to train perception. In areas that have water the hunt verb does not work, also some dry hunting areas it does not work in as well. I understand the reasoning behind asking for this, however changing it without coming up with a better or more uniform way to train perception would be a bit one sided, also leaving you with a perception trainer <hunt> with a timer vs being able to just kill the critter and get a fresh one.
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/19/2016 09:43 PM CST
>> The problem is there is so few ways to train perception.
It's a combat skill. Let's stop pretending perception is not a combat skill. You should need to train it in combat and the caps should work like other combat skills do.
>> In areas that have water the hunt verb does not work, also some dry hunting areas it does not work in as well.
Oh well? I can't train stealth in certain areas either. Hunt in a different area if you want to keep perception up, just like I need to pick and choose my hunting grounds if I want to keep stealth up or get boxes for locksmithing or any other number of things.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
It's a combat skill. Let's stop pretending perception is not a combat skill. You should need to train it in combat and the caps should work like other combat skills do.
>> In areas that have water the hunt verb does not work, also some dry hunting areas it does not work in as well.
Oh well? I can't train stealth in certain areas either. Hunt in a different area if you want to keep perception up, just like I need to pick and choose my hunting grounds if I want to keep stealth up or get boxes for locksmithing or any other number of things.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/19/2016 09:53 PM CST
>Oh well? I can't train stealth in certain areas either. Hunt in a different area if you want to keep perception up, just like I need to pick and choose my hunting grounds if I want to keep stealth up or get boxes for locksmithing or any other number of things.
Should perception be compared to locksmithing? I feel it ought to be thought of exactly like Shield, Evasion, or Parry. DR doesn't support not learning one of these defenses anymore, should it support not learning perception?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
Should perception be compared to locksmithing? I feel it ought to be thought of exactly like Shield, Evasion, or Parry. DR doesn't support not learning one of these defenses anymore, should it support not learning perception?
Your search-fu is pig dung!
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/19/2016 10:00 PM CST
>> I feel it ought to be thought of exactly like Shield, Evasion, or Parry.
No, it should be thought of like Stealth. Because Perception is the skill that contests Stealth, and it is precisely as optional as Stealth. Which is why I'm asking it be treated like Stealth. If you never fight anything that uses Stealth, you actually never have to worry about Perception, beyond the relative handful of environmental things that key off of it.
I'm fine with throwing people a bone up to like 100-200 ranks, but beyond that? Yes, it's a combat skill, it should be treated like one.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
No, it should be thought of like Stealth. Because Perception is the skill that contests Stealth, and it is precisely as optional as Stealth. Which is why I'm asking it be treated like Stealth. If you never fight anything that uses Stealth, you actually never have to worry about Perception, beyond the relative handful of environmental things that key off of it.
I'm fine with throwing people a bone up to like 100-200 ranks, but beyond that? Yes, it's a combat skill, it should be treated like one.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
URITEL
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/19/2016 10:18 PM CST
I'm torn on this because of there being actual applications of stuff outside of combat that perception helps with beyond stealth. Unless you consider trees and rare metals to be stealthy. Which, they kind of are, just unintentionally.
Maybe instead tier collecting on what's being collected? Like.. shouldn't still be locking perception at 900 ranks just because you were able to collect dirt at a farm. But collect bones of a particular creature? Or.. yeah.
NINEVAH1
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 07:09 AM CST
Perception has other uses outside of combat than just vs. Stealth. It plays a big part in opening boxes and gathering materials, also, as well as some other obscure things I can't think of at this moment.
As a stealth user I don't understand this honestly. You can train Stealth way above combat caps of most critters (unless they are blind) as well as Perception. If you are having problems with being able to hide around people at level with you then train Stealth more. This has never been an issue to me.
As a stealth user I don't understand this honestly. You can train Stealth way above combat caps of most critters (unless they are blind) as well as Perception. If you are having problems with being able to hide around people at level with you then train Stealth more. This has never been an issue to me.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 07:55 AM CST
>>It's a combat skill. Let's stop pretending perception is not a combat skill.
eh, that's like saying athletics is a combat skill because of web attacks.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
eh, that's like saying athletics is a combat skill because of web attacks.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ZETHIN01095
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 08:26 AM CST
I think the only issue here is just that it doesn't respect caps in combat. I don't care if people are learning perception through foraging/mining/locksmithing, but when I can lock perc with 800 ranks in Spirit Dancers while backtraining weapons something is off.
Perception should cap at the same time Stealth does for a critter.
Perception should cap at the same time Stealth does for a critter.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 12:39 PM CST
I'm with THAYET on this one - if the primary purpose of a skill is to contest another combat skill, it's a combat skill. Perception is used in a handful of old world movement checks, but other than that, it's not really anything but a combat skill.
NINEVAH1
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 12:47 PM CST
>>Perception is used in a handful of old world movement checks, but other than that, it's not really anything but a combat skill.
Opening boxes, gathering crafting materials, and foraging herbs is combat?
Opening boxes, gathering crafting materials, and foraging herbs is combat?
ZETHIN01095
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 12:52 PM CST
>>Opening boxes, gathering crafting materials, and foraging herbs is combat?
If you consider skinning a combat skill then so is lockpicking.
Yes there are other uses for Perception outside of combat, but it's still primarily a combat skill.
If you consider skinning a combat skill then so is lockpicking.
Yes there are other uses for Perception outside of combat, but it's still primarily a combat skill.
NINEVAH1
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 01:09 PM CST
If the definition of a combat skill is going to become any skill trained in combat then I guess Appraisal, Scholarship, and Athletics are now combat skills.
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 01:57 PM CST
I get that people reeeeally love their free perception train via HUNT, but it is absolutely ridiculous and needs to change.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
DINERGRRL
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 02:01 PM CST
I think capping how high it teaches via HUNT is a good idea, but I also agree that it's not purely a combat skill.
ZETHIN01095
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 02:20 PM CST
>>If the definition of a combat skill is going to become any skill trained in combat then I guess Appraisal, Scholarship, and Athletics are now combat skills.
Does Athletics respect critter skill caps? Appraisal does. So should perception via hunt.
Does Athletics respect critter skill caps? Appraisal does. So should perception via hunt.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 03:46 PM CST
I think we need to acknowledge a few things:
1) Perception gain via HUNT could be capped earlier than it currently is, but we shouldn't act that perception via HUNT means you can sit in goblins and cap out until 1750
2) Perception is not a full combat skill. At best, it's a full PvP combat skill and an occasional combat skill for the rare critters that use stealth
3) We shouldn't act like Perception isn't used more often for foraging, mining/lumberjacking and opening boxes, with the latter two probably being more risky than anything that happens in combat these days.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
1) Perception gain via HUNT could be capped earlier than it currently is, but we shouldn't act that perception via HUNT means you can sit in goblins and cap out until 1750
2) Perception is not a full combat skill. At best, it's a full PvP combat skill and an occasional combat skill for the rare critters that use stealth
3) We shouldn't act like Perception isn't used more often for foraging, mining/lumberjacking and opening boxes, with the latter two probably being more risky than anything that happens in combat these days.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 05:27 PM CST
My question is, how much perception training via hunt did some of these people do that now want it capped? Sometimes things are just best left alone to let resources be allocated where real issues exist.
SCHULTZS3
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 07:26 PM CST
>If you consider skinning a combat skill then so is lockpicking.
I consider it a combat skill only because there's no other way of training it except a dead critter, or scraping the skin of a dead critter which teaches abysmally. Or classes, of course.
I don't consider Locksmithing one, because the skill is trained outside of combat, even if you get boxes through combat. A hunter can give a Locksmith half a dozen boxes to open for them and the boxer will lock locksmithing just fine without having to step into combat. That is, indeed, pretty much the point of an entire collective of players through the Locksmith Union.
Perception, on the other hand, is used and trained extensively outside of combat.
Boxes
mining
logging
foraging
COLLECT
preventing theft (Which no one here has even brought up, which is NONCOMBAT PvP)
That said, I would not be opposed to some sanity to it, such as capping HUNT at what Tactics does (since that seems to be somewhat about the rest of combat caps), and tiering COLLECT off the difficult of the item and how many are gathered.
But I am against the outright neutering of it, especially given its primacy as theft detection and prevention. That does still happen, you know.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
I consider it a combat skill only because there's no other way of training it except a dead critter, or scraping the skin of a dead critter which teaches abysmally. Or classes, of course.
I don't consider Locksmithing one, because the skill is trained outside of combat, even if you get boxes through combat. A hunter can give a Locksmith half a dozen boxes to open for them and the boxer will lock locksmithing just fine without having to step into combat. That is, indeed, pretty much the point of an entire collective of players through the Locksmith Union.
Perception, on the other hand, is used and trained extensively outside of combat.
Boxes
mining
logging
foraging
COLLECT
preventing theft (Which no one here has even brought up, which is NONCOMBAT PvP)
That said, I would not be opposed to some sanity to it, such as capping HUNT at what Tactics does (since that seems to be somewhat about the rest of combat caps), and tiering COLLECT off the difficult of the item and how many are gathered.
But I am against the outright neutering of it, especially given its primacy as theft detection and prevention. That does still happen, you know.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
BENNETTJ13
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 08:54 PM CST
I like the thought of gutting the free perc. Cap it with tactics. Also allow a failure. Terrain modifiers. All that. And please change the collect exp to what you CAN collect. It's a joke that I can lock my perc next to a newb who can collect rocks too. Free perc for all these years has already neutred stealth enough. It really does need fixed... And pretty badly.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
BENNETTJ13
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 08:57 PM CST
Also anyone but a newb complaining about theft is ridiculous. Deposit your coin and close your pouch. In a world filled with thieves and worse, its silly to think you should be able to safely walk around with coin in your pockets. I don't steal from people, but people like you make me want to start. Just knowing there are still people silly enough to think they can/should be able to walk around with plats is funny.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
SLHUBBARD
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/20/2016 09:32 PM CST
>>I get that people reeeeally love their free perception train via HUNT, but it is absolutely ridiculous and needs to change.
This. I really hate HUNT, both because it is stupidly free Perception experience, and because it makes Scouting pretty useless as an ability.
I feel like HUNT was added during an era were fixing critter spawn wasn't as high a priority. Do we even still need it? Maybe HUNT is easier, but HUNT # is MUCH more difficult for non-Rangers?
GENT
This. I really hate HUNT, both because it is stupidly free Perception experience, and because it makes Scouting pretty useless as an ability.
I feel like HUNT was added during an era were fixing critter spawn wasn't as high a priority. Do we even still need it? Maybe HUNT is easier, but HUNT # is MUCH more difficult for non-Rangers?
GENT
BENNETTJ13
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 12:40 PM CST
To be fair, the last thing we need is to go back to juggling. That was the most ridiculous thing I've ever done for skill training.
Ohhh we could pass out eye charts! Etopz.... Lol
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Ohhh we could pass out eye charts! Etopz.... Lol
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
DR-NAOHHI
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 01:37 PM CST
Gonna just turn off the exp altogether. (I'm joking, maybe.)
---
NaOH+HI
---
NaOH+HI
SHADOW7988
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 03:42 PM CST
That would be an AWESOME april fools thing, exp gain off. Huh April Fools!
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
ILLIENA
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 03:46 PM CST
> That would be an AWESOME april fools thing, exp gain off. Huh April Fools!
Remember the hue and cry when the experience display accidentally had the 1s and 10s digits transposed?
Remember the hue and cry when the experience display accidentally had the 1s and 10s digits transposed?
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 04:02 PM CST
Juggling was terrible and needed to die a painful death. HUNT is just...too much in the other direction, and so is COLLECT. In the past there were ways to train stealth to infinity by way of certain NPCs (shadowling) and those were removed due to being unbalanced, so I'm not really sure why these were implemented in this way.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
TEVESHSZAT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 04:26 PM CST
>>I'm not really sure why these were implemented in this way.
Until 3.0, stalking was learned via HUNT as well as perception was.
In the end, perception is not a dedicated combat skill, so while lowering the cap on what specific critters can train it to is a reasonable suggestion, it's should never stop being something you can reasonably lock outside of combat, anyway.
Disclosure: It's essentially impossible to train perception via HUNT in Plat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Until 3.0, stalking was learned via HUNT as well as perception was.
In the end, perception is not a dedicated combat skill, so while lowering the cap on what specific critters can train it to is a reasonable suggestion, it's should never stop being something you can reasonably lock outside of combat, anyway.
Disclosure: It's essentially impossible to train perception via HUNT in Plat.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 04:31 PM CST
Stealth is used outside of combat as well. That did not stop most of the ways to train it out of combat from being removed or gutted.
(I actually do think stealing should train stealth way more than it presently does, but hey.)
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
(I actually do think stealing should train stealth way more than it presently does, but hey.)
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SHADOWCHIEF2
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 04:36 PM CST
<Disclosure: It's essentially impossible to train perception via HUNT in Plat.
Why? Just because of the amount of people NOT in your hunting ground? I just wondered because even when I was in area's nobody else was ever in I'd usually stay about around 6/34. Though, maybe some of the area's in prime have increased spawn that leaks elsewhere also.
Why? Just because of the amount of people NOT in your hunting ground? I just wondered because even when I was in area's nobody else was ever in I'd usually stay about around 6/34. Though, maybe some of the area's in prime have increased spawn that leaks elsewhere also.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 04:59 PM CST
>>Stealth is used outside of combat as well. That did not stop most of the ways to train it out of combat from being removed or gutted.
Probably more likely to get stealth exp boosted in some areas that deserve it than have perception kneecapped and limited to effective learning from just HUNTing mobs at-perception-level.
>>Why? Just because of the amount of people NOT in your hunting ground? I just wondered because even when I was in area's nobody else was ever in I'd usually stay about around 6/34. Though, maybe some of the area's in prime have increased spawn that leaks elsewhere also.
Depends on the hunting ground and if there are mobs that spawn in locations other than where you are. If you're in a zone where mobs spawn randomly and/or aren't limited to four per person in the area, you could do it just fine, but until now when I'm in mountain giants I rarely came across those. As a result, I've pretty much never bothered training perception via hunt. I get everything from collecting, prospecting, and opening boxes.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Probably more likely to get stealth exp boosted in some areas that deserve it than have perception kneecapped and limited to effective learning from just HUNTing mobs at-perception-level.
>>Why? Just because of the amount of people NOT in your hunting ground? I just wondered because even when I was in area's nobody else was ever in I'd usually stay about around 6/34. Though, maybe some of the area's in prime have increased spawn that leaks elsewhere also.
Depends on the hunting ground and if there are mobs that spawn in locations other than where you are. If you're in a zone where mobs spawn randomly and/or aren't limited to four per person in the area, you could do it just fine, but until now when I'm in mountain giants I rarely came across those. As a result, I've pretty much never bothered training perception via hunt. I get everything from collecting, prospecting, and opening boxes.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 08:29 PM CST
This makes me wonder if Perception is doing too many mechanically distinct things.
Your search-fu is pig dung!
Your search-fu is pig dung!
TEVESHSZAT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 09:00 PM CST
>>This makes me wonder if Perception is doing too many mechanically distinct things.
It's kinda like stalking and hiding. It does a lot of things that are useful, but none of which are strong enough to stand on their own. Sure, you can take it out of prospecting (but why?), or finding traps (but why?), or HUNTing (but why?), or foraging (once again, but why?), but they're all legitimate things that could use the skill.
In the end, I know this entire argument boils down to a dislike for people having "easy" access to perception which diminishes stealth for PvE purposes, but I kinda sideeye it once it goes beyond requesting the critter-based training caps for HUNT getting reassessed.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It's kinda like stalking and hiding. It does a lot of things that are useful, but none of which are strong enough to stand on their own. Sure, you can take it out of prospecting (but why?), or finding traps (but why?), or HUNTing (but why?), or foraging (once again, but why?), but they're all legitimate things that could use the skill.
In the end, I know this entire argument boils down to a dislike for people having "easy" access to perception which diminishes stealth for PvE purposes, but I kinda sideeye it once it goes beyond requesting the critter-based training caps for HUNT getting reassessed.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ZETHIN01095
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 09:55 PM CST
Critter caps are really the biggest issue here. If someone is maxing perception gain from foraging/mining then they aren't also training weapons/defenses. The problem becomes when I can easily lock perception in the same place I lock backtraining weapons with a 500 rank difference.
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 10:01 PM CST
>> finding traps (but why?)
>> or foraging (once again, but why?)
Because both of these activities already have dedicated skills for them. Why should you dilute them by throwing perception into the mix? Because perception needs crutches? Prospecting is a weird one but I would actually frankly be happier if it relied solely on Outdoorsman and Appraisal.
All that said, the main issue really is HUNT and COLLECT not scaling at all to what's being found (and it's an issue for Outdoorsman too, but that has fewer useful applications in general). I don't think HUNT needs to go away, but it does need to have sensible skill caps put in place so it works like literally every other skill you train in combat. It would be nice if HUNT actually contested something at some point too, but whatever.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
>> or foraging (once again, but why?)
Because both of these activities already have dedicated skills for them. Why should you dilute them by throwing perception into the mix? Because perception needs crutches? Prospecting is a weird one but I would actually frankly be happier if it relied solely on Outdoorsman and Appraisal.
All that said, the main issue really is HUNT and COLLECT not scaling at all to what's being found (and it's an issue for Outdoorsman too, but that has fewer useful applications in general). I don't think HUNT needs to go away, but it does need to have sensible skill caps put in place so it works like literally every other skill you train in combat. It would be nice if HUNT actually contested something at some point too, but whatever.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
TEVESHSZAT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 10:05 PM CST
>>Why should you dilute them by throwing perception into the mix?
The same reason why we have a parry skill, an evasion skill, and a shield usage skill. Same for magic having attunement. Why toss one more thing into the mix?
>>relied solely on Outdoorsman and Appraisal.
But why Appraisal? Why not make all tasks single-skill checks?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
The same reason why we have a parry skill, an evasion skill, and a shield usage skill. Same for magic having attunement. Why toss one more thing into the mix?
>>relied solely on Outdoorsman and Appraisal.
But why Appraisal? Why not make all tasks single-skill checks?
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
THAYET
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 10:17 PM CST
>> The same reason why we have a parry skill, an evasion skill, and a shield usage skill. Same for magic having attunement. Why toss one more thing into the mix?
Because each of those skills is doing a distinct thing and works in a distinct way. It isn't really the same as Locksmithing factoring in your Perception ranks regardless of how you feel about the latter being a design standard.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Because each of those skills is doing a distinct thing and works in a distinct way. It isn't really the same as Locksmithing factoring in your Perception ranks regardless of how you feel about the latter being a design standard.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/21/2016 10:32 PM CST
>Because both of these activities already have dedicated skills for them. Why should you dilute them by throwing perception into the mix? Because perception needs crutches? Prospecting is a weird one but I would actually frankly be happier if it relied solely on Outdoorsman and Appraisal.
Yeah... either Perception is in the mix because DR used to be chock-a-block with little thematic touches like racial modification to carry weight, or it fills some meaningful role in bonusing/penalizing outdoorsmanship and locksmithing. Both situations are rather inelegant and strongly suggest perception should either do more (and bonus/penalize athletics, skinning, and first aid-- there's a lot of finding hidden things involved in all of these, realistically) or do less.
Outdoorsmanship and locksmithing could take whole possession of their own systems.
Finding hidden exits could probably be taken over by outdoorsmanship just as logically (or maybe more logically -- "hidden" plants and pathways are not actively avoiding you, "hiding" people are) as could Hunt; with a secondary Perception check against hiding critters.
Outdoorsmanship is then the skill of finding passively hidden stuff out in the world (tracks, resources, pathways), perception is skill against active hiding. It seems hard to argue that defense against stealth is too niche without arguing that stealth is too niche.
Downside: everybody now only trains against critters that ambush and all other hunting areas are abandoned except by Empaths. So that's a problem.
Your search-fu is pig dung!
Yeah... either Perception is in the mix because DR used to be chock-a-block with little thematic touches like racial modification to carry weight, or it fills some meaningful role in bonusing/penalizing outdoorsmanship and locksmithing. Both situations are rather inelegant and strongly suggest perception should either do more (and bonus/penalize athletics, skinning, and first aid-- there's a lot of finding hidden things involved in all of these, realistically) or do less.
Outdoorsmanship and locksmithing could take whole possession of their own systems.
Finding hidden exits could probably be taken over by outdoorsmanship just as logically (or maybe more logically -- "hidden" plants and pathways are not actively avoiding you, "hiding" people are) as could Hunt; with a secondary Perception check against hiding critters.
Outdoorsmanship is then the skill of finding passively hidden stuff out in the world (tracks, resources, pathways), perception is skill against active hiding. It seems hard to argue that defense against stealth is too niche without arguing that stealth is too niche.
Downside: everybody now only trains against critters that ambush and all other hunting areas are abandoned except by Empaths. So that's a problem.
Your search-fu is pig dung!
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/22/2016 07:32 AM CST
I would be happy if Perception got dropped from being involved in all those other skills. Incidentally, since it's only really involved in skillchecks that are Survival, it's just diluting those skills. Locks and Outdoorsmanship are skills in and of their own rights, they don't need Perception thrown on as well.
Perception should be trainable in relevant scale combat, but if it was only involved in Stealth checks, I'd consider that a win for the streamlining of the game. Since there's a long and rich history of Moonies needing it for Astrological purposes, sure, why not, one guild can have a hard requirement for it too.
Perception should be trainable in relevant scale combat, but if it was only involved in Stealth checks, I'd consider that a win for the streamlining of the game. Since there's a long and rich history of Moonies needing it for Astrological purposes, sure, why not, one guild can have a hard requirement for it too.
BAVESTTHEMADDEST
Re: HUNT and Perception
01/22/2016 09:09 AM CST
I'd be in favor of un-nerfing stealth and leaving perception alone. I'm not horribly opposed to capping perception via hunt as related to critter level training but, let's be honest, that's not what would happen. Leave perception alone and let's put stealth back where it belongs. At some point, we've got to quit nerfing stuff. For over 15 years I've watched the nerf bat travel on a vicious circle.
