Ok, Ive seen a certain theif backstab me and my friends now a few times.. he has not gotten thugged though.. WHAT THE HECK!.. there is no way this theif could touch me in a million years.. but using backstab he can hit me.. now i dont seem to think this is fair.. He can go rampantly backstabbing people.. while if i attack or if I kill my soul is tanked i cant do anything.. Things better change.. or else

>there is no way this theif could touch me in a million years.. but using backstab he can hit me..


Thief in question has been training his BS hard and has earned the standing he has to be able to BS you.

He can go rampantly backstabbing people..

There is still the HUGE pain in the butt downside to BSing of being able to get to melee. So no he can't rampantly run around doing it. Tam covered everything else.

Eyoni

Id like to add that because backstab is a surprise attack it nulls your parry and shield...both of which you are a master of. Thats why i wouldnt be able to touch you in melee but i was able to stab ya. Also it takes in account the surprise factor. Your perception is crappy compared to my hiding so the surprise effect is greater.

As for not being thugged. You dont know i wasnt thugged because like Tam said a person only gets thugged if they stabbed in public and they will only be thugged when they are alone. And it wouldnt have killed me most likely. Just hurt me pretty bad.

And as for your soul hit, we do lose bonus we have to our abilities for stabbing in public and killing. So we arent able to use certain abilities as easily and we arent able to talk to certain...contacts we know in town.

Oh btw, IG you said backstab was overpowered. Take into account that we have to train 2 skills in order to use the one ability effectively.

Miilo

I'm aware that Backstabbing can only be taught from Thief to Thief or Non-Thief to Non-Thief. That means that before the change was made, Thieves were obviously able to teach others this skill.

If there is anyone out there who is not a Thief and has ANY Backstabbing skill, please email me at zealous_prophet85@yahoo.com

speaking of backstabbing, why is my shield useless against it? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

because you have your shield in front of you protecting your chest, while someone is sneaking up behind you and stabbing you in the back. :-)


---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.

The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"

The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack

>>Which brings up an interesting question I don't know the answer to, can you still shield block a Snipe? Or does it bypass shield checks too?

Snipe != backstab. Even a successful snipe has a bonus to the attack that pales in comparison to a successful backstab, and never bypasses any defenses. The GMs have stated that the purpose of snipe is to remain unhidden, not to deal extra damage. That's why the bonus is so small.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

I don't know what that means...


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

>>I can see sniping no taking into account a shield defense but backstabbing should equate shield as it does evasion. it's all about reaction time.

You didn't see the attack coming! How could you possibly interpose a shield, which you hold IN FRONT OF YOU or at your side, between the knife and your back? That doesn't make any sense at all. Maybe at the last minute you hear the arrow coming, whirl around and interpose while it's in flight. Or maybe you catch just a flash of the thief in time to fling yourself out of the way of a backstab, but no way do you get your shield around in time.

>>Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

I found that very annoying, and rude, the first time I read it when it appeared to be just something you typed in as a response. It now appears to be part of your signature. If so, may I suggest that you separate it with a line or something to make it clear you're not calling every person you respond to a beer-addled idiot? Unless you are doing so on purpose, which would be good to know so I can give that Ignore button another whirl :-)

~ Nutawa
_______________________________
Gidske's Armor Guide: http://www.heromachine.com/drealms
Character Portrait: http://www.heromachine.com/drealms/nutawa.jpg

Why does no one mention parry?

Steel.

---

YOU HAVE <insert ability here>!! YOU ARE OVERPOWERED!! DIE GUILD DIE!!!

Now with combat move charts!
http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/steelflash

that's my point Ruffles, If I have time to dodge, I should have time to block. and/or parry for that matter.

Kolaisa


Use that beer sponge you call a brain!

<<that's my point Ruffles, If I have time to dodge, I should have time to block. and/or parry for that matter.>>

I can somehow understand your IC way of thought, however, the ability to backstab is specifically useful because it does not have checks against shield and parry. It does however, have skill checks that can seriously lower the effectiveness of a backstab manuever. They were already mentioned in this thread, so while they might not seem necessarily reasonable IC wise to you based on the explanation given, the ability of backstabbing is powerful - but not overpowered, IMO.

Your character does not have time to block a shield or parry, the first instinct of your character is to dodge NO MATTER WHAT! Why? Because the system is ALWAYS evasion, then shield or parry. And then armor to determine how much damage is calculated. Just giving a rough idea of how it works.

-Ruffles

Always highly controversial, never watered down.
Role-playing is contagious, catch the fever.
http://www.pleaseprey.com/gummi.html

>>If dodge is checked, I should have every right to block. If dodge isn't checked, I have no right to block.

I assume you mean evasion. In that case, the backstab is so quick and precise that even evasion has a penalty to it when it is pulled off successfully.

Just be happy that you can evade at all. No matter how quick you think you can react or how strong or tough you are, if I'm behind you with a knife in my hand 5 foot away, and I stab you and you don't see me stabbing, you die. I ram a knife into your brain-stem and you are dead 10/10 times with no chance of dodging/blocking/parrying anything.


-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

To my knowledge, the following:

When the aggresor attempts a backstab their is first a check of their backstab skill (and im guessing their hiding, and a bonus if they are stalking) against the targets perception. At this step of the attack, determinations for bypassing or penalties to the defenders defense are evaluated. If the aggresor "sees" the thief, with no problem what so ever, then it is very likely the thief will not negate the targets parry or shield. To test this, a young thief vs an older pally, the pally will be able to utilize their shield or parry against the oncomming attack.

Should the defender loose the contest by some pre determined margin, their shield and parry are negated (in what order, I have no clue). These active defenses require the most thought from the 3 active defenses, and while you can try to "fall" out of the way of an attack about to strike your back, utilizing a shield or a blade is nearly impossible. You become aware of the backstab as it peirces your skin, meaning the only viable chance of lessening the damage at this point is squirming away from it (evasion). If evasion at this step is penalized, I dont know.

On the aggresors side it seems a bonus is calculated from the backstab vs perception contest. This bonus is applied to their weapon skill which is then driven against the targets soul evasion in the best case or the targets full defenses in the worst case. The aggresor is also graced with a different 'target' to their attack. Normal attacks mudanely seem to aim at the chest, while backstab aims at the back (a critical area).

This is why a backstab, when done properly, is very lethal. It faces less defense, with some bonus, to strike a critical area. On the other hand, this is why a backstab, when done poorly, is utterly useless, as it will result in a thrust from the shadows which the defender has full defensive power over.

So short story: you can use your shield, you just have to train your eyes.



~~From Hell

"Then look for me by moonlight,
Watch for me by moonlight,
I'll come to thee by moonlight, though hell should bar the way."- Alfred Noyes

Backstab puts a penalty on all three defense types. It is just harder to get past evasion for various reasons (you can see previous posts or just accept that it's a game design). If you have the perception, backstab is utterly worthless. Everyone is perfectly able to defend against it. Of course, for you its tertiary (you're a pally?) and therefore slower to learn than for other people. Train perception.

>>no offense but the person backstabbing is at melee for noramlly .5 seconds. But in that .5 seconds, if I still see them I should be able to throw my shield behind me. That just plain makes sense

Agreed, and that's why it works like that now. If you see the person sneaking up behind you or even if you catch a glimpse of them as they start their stab, you can block with your shield.

If you don't see them at all, then like I said, be lucky there is any defense cause the first time you notice the blade is when it's piercing into your flesh.

-Teeklin Tessenoak, Proud Ranger of Elanthia

It's only after we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything.

Backstab is great for a certain guild, seems like someone got backstabbed and didn't like that their 30 + stamina didn't save them, or that their 400+ evasion and 300+ shield didn't work or thier 500+ ranks in perception didn't work, wonder who hit em? Soim? ::glances at Soim:: you pickin on folks again?


Backstabing takes more than what it would seem. To pull off a backstab and not thrust takes stealth, lots of it. I can't even one hit a swamp troll with 170's in backstab, and 130's in weapons. I can't even hide at melee on them. Perception plays a huge roll in backstabing critters/pc's. On top of that perception check, evasion check on the backstabee, on top of that the backstaber has to take into account their weapons ranks versus backstabee's stealth/armor/weapons ranks to hope to not get parried if seen going to melee on said backstabee.

On top of that, if we do happend to miss, its a huge balance loss to us, plus we have to have the armor ranks to overcome not being seen stalking to melee...etc, etc...backstabing don't just check evasion/parry/shield....it checks alot of things. And in my opinion is set just right, with that auto point once we get to melee if we're seen...heh...can we say gnome caught with his hand in the tart jar when the lamp is turned on in the middle of the night? Backstabbing is an awesome ability. But its deadly, quick and hits a vital organ if used correctly.

If we thrust on a backstab, guess what, its not a backstab! and can and will be dodged/blocked/or just plain miss...it takes into account alot of things. The GM"s tested it, the GM's like where it stands, should be end of discussion. People have been aruging about it for years, and its been downtweaked quiet abit over the years too. But to the original line of the post.

If you don't see the backstab coming from behind, and you don't have the perception or sense to see us coming, how in the world can you say that you have the right to say, oh, I should be able to do..this is a fanta...wait...this is a reality based game...in reality, you'd have no time to swing that shield around much less yourself around...

wait...wait...I have an idea..yeah, lets let you turn around and face us, I"d love to shove a blade right down the front side of someone's left eye cavity, or right down the center of thier chest slicing every bone in thier ribs right open, or shoving my blade so far down into their mouth and down thier throat and hearing a sickening gurgle...::smiles abit evily:: heh...ok, let everyone face us! I wanna see those crits!


~Dalkin~


If its got two legs and you hear a thud...don't panic...I just killed another one.

Sounds to me like backstab is working fairly (as long as all the information posted by the resident......commoners is accurate and I have no reason to believe it isn't)

---

Mercenary Cerrebus

I'm good at wut I do and wut I do ain't pretty

Ok here are the facts.

If you SEE a backstab coming, its no longer a backstab, its an ambush thrust.

If they ambush thrust at you, you CAN block it with a shield because you saw it coming it wasnt a surprise attack.

If you see them coming, they can still kill you in one hit. Seeing them coming doesnt instantly meant hey have zero weapon ranks, you just have to hope your defense can overcome their offense.

If they get a THRUST and not a BS, they have no bonus to the strength and accuracy of their attack, again, its just a regular ambush.

If the backstab is successful, its from behind you and there is no way possible your going to react enough to even slightly deflect it with a shield. So successful BS cancels out shield, it makes perfect sense and im finding it rather ludicrus that someone is even trying to argue that it doesnt.

Anything I missed? If your going to respond to this, try to put up a compelling arguement, since I havent seen one yet.

>>Don't be Nutawa, constructive works better then moronic

So in addition to not understanding the basic laws of physics, time, motion, biology, and the mechanics of DR, you have also displayed (twice now) a complete lack of understanding of the rules of common courtesy and respect. Not to mention a deplorable lack of appreciation for irony, by putting your foolishness on display with every post even while pointing fingers at others.

Rufhelous et. al. have (as always) done a superlative job of demolishing poor logic and petulant self-serving nonsense, so I will refrain from further comment on this subject.

~ Nutawa

P.S. Thanks for giving me a chance to make sure the ol' Ignore button still works!
_______________________________
Gidske's Armor Guide: http://www.heromachine.com/drealms
Character Portrait: http://www.heromachine.com/drealms/nutawa.jpg