So now that the majority of HE work is over, and Christmas is done, can we look at getting IC moved over to signature please?

Yes, i know some people have spent money on Tats, but there is a lot of other tatts that it could be exchanged to so money spent isn't lost.

I don't think we need to explain again how this mechanic does not work with the game for non Empaths. And im sure those people who have spent money will be happy for an exchange in the interest of fair play.

Rifkinn

>> I feel it is borderline necessary given the strength of late game critters, guaranteed hits, and broken status of most special attacks.

If you really believe this, you should be advocating for the critters to be fixed. if you feel that the good of the game comes first.

Though because ive had no issues with finding critters that i can hunt reasonably in endgame without IC, i feel your statement may have another motive. Or your just over hunting.

Rifkinn

>>I'm looking out for PvE before PvP, which I feel is for the good of the game. Hopefully that clarifies my motivation.


Considering i pointed out that IC is not needed for end game, if you hunt at a reasonable lvl.... No it dosnt. (remember im a guild that doesn't have access to wards that MUers have, but im sure you know that).

Rifkinn

You know, when fighting games have wonky combos or glitches, or at least things they consider to be those things, the fighting game community just makes the rule "no doing X". There's no requirement for the game itself to get patched to resolve it.

With that in mind, why not just not fight people using IC. You already have PvP rules for Wyvern Trials that relate to not making the event drag on too long (ie: no FoI/BoT), so just expand that when it comes to spells that make combat too slow, as well. When it comes to folks who are "open profiled" and not worried about it "because the have IC up," you're the ones treating being "open profiled" as some kind of OOC badge of honor, so maybe this is an opportunity to recognize how silly that is, or maybe dig yourself in deeper and change it to "open profiled and without an IC tattoo" because as long as you're creating silly goalposts for what makes a PvPer "the real deal" why not go even more esoteric with it. It's Prime's own bizarre sense of PvP culture that's making people act like they have to fight someone who is "cheating" to begin with. You're boxing yourselves into the silliest corner ever.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Now that so many IC tattoos and such have been sold, it would be difficult to put that genie back in the bottle without offering some sort of refund to people. I'd like to repeat the solution I offered previously: Make the spell like Last Gift of Vithwok IV. LGV only provides half the benefit for non-traders. It's sort of a halfway-signature spell. For non-Empaths, there are many ways that IC could be modified to make its use a bit more sane.

That, or if we're just accepting that IC is a required part of PvP, give NMU's at least some way to get rid of wards. New roar/khri, modification to existing abilities, special shops to buy Dispel wands, I don't really care.

> You know, when fighting games have wonky combos or glitches, or at least things they consider to be those things, the fighting game community just makes the rule "no doing X". There's no requirement for the game itself to get patched to resolve it.

I just cannot imagine this community policing itself on this, especially since some people don't think it's even a problem. The more serious someone is about PvP'ing with their character, the more likely they are to be using IC. Now, I don't necessarily mind that there's a "meta" to PvP - that's been going on for a while, and isn't really fixable. Some guild will always be considered "the best". My problems are that 1) it's not really good design IMO to have an expensive scroll or MT item be de facto required for any serious PvP, and 2) that it's especially lousy that there are two guilds, Barbarians and Thieves, that essentially have no counter whatsoever. Against MU's, IC use is good, arguably OP. Against NMU's, it's straight-up broken, IMO.

- Saragos

>> You know, when fighting games have wonky combos or glitches, or at least things they consider to be those things, the fighting game community just makes the rule "no doing X". There's no requirement for the game itself to get patched to resolve it.

Only it trivializes (in combination with other abilities) PvE as well.

>I don't know, Wyvern Arena is pretty good at setting rules about things that are out of bounds.

Wyvern Arena is not the only form of PvP.

Barriers in general are a problem but IC itself definitely bothers me. Some abilities like Cage of Light and Tenacity meditation are somewhere in the neighborhood of flat 10% damage reduction and capped Iron Constitution can take a severe hit down to light? You could cut the maximum strength into 1/4 of its current strength and it would still situationally be the most powerful damage reduction in the game.

>>a lot of these PvP issues could also be easily solved of folks just didn't have some compulsion to enter situations they literally don't seem to want to enter.

Ah, but the issue with IC is that there aren't any situations they do want to enter - ones where they just jump folk and those folk die.

As someone with very little PvP experience in Combat3.0 (2x hah, my script found an Open so I'ma jump you while hunting with no interaction and run away, and 2x organized cemetery fights), if these barriers are truly out of control, and I trust the posters in this repeating thread are doing so in good faith, I don't see why the haphazard 'fix' that changed MAF to be more effective in PvP than PvE can't be reversed and then also applied to IC. That change happened quickly and in my naive understanding of code, should at least lay the template for a fix to PvP barriers until a full review can occur.

https://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Discussions%20with%20DragonRealms%20Staff%20and%20Players/Game%20Master%20and%20Official%20Announcements/view/1517

~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea

>>Now that so many IC tattoos and such have been sold, it would be difficult to put that genie back in the bottle without offering some sort of refund to people.

On the topic of this.... There is an argument flying around discord and the community that seeing as they paid for the IC tattoo that somehow this negates any reason to change the spell.

This attitude that the player base has is rather common with the selfishness they hold in their approach to this game. And an obvious rebuttal to this line of thinking, If this product offered a negative impact to their characters contrary to what was intended.. the player base would be screaming for their money back, or at the very least an exchange.

Also, if you want to lead with a dollar value as a means for objection to keep things as it is, then....

I have paid a subscription to this game for 20 odd years. And part of my enjoyment and what keeps me here is roleplay and PvP and it has been that way since day 1.
While i know that absolute balance will never be achieved, I do have an expectation that attention to keeping things as balanced as possible be something that the GM's take seriously and without prejudice no matter what part of the game it might involve.

But people want to complain about having spent 30 dollars on an object? I only need to read the sales channel to see what value 30 dollars holds for most people, Especially those who look for every MT item available to make their characters as close to invincible as possible.

At the very least offer an exchange of tatt or give a 30 dollar credit to peoples next subscription. This is what other businesses do when mistakes with products are made.

Mistakes are made by players, GM's and Simu, we are human.

Rifkinn

I think IC isn't as bad as some people say it is. It caps at ~hard hit, which you definitely can't take a ton of before going down, and I have no sympathy for people complaining about not being able to instant kill people. However, I do think it's overtuned, and should be addressed.

I think a reasonable middle ground that would address multiple concerns would be to reduce the maximum potency - perhaps half, perhaps two thirds - on a sliding scale based on Empathic Shock, with 0% empathy (as a non empath or fully shocked empath) leaving you at 50% or 66% effectiveness. This would still prevent one shots and slow even gnarly hits, especially when your vit's full.

It wouldn't require making the spell signature (something I imagine wouldn't be easy to do with all these tattoos and such out anyway), nor would it reduce the impact for those I would assume the spell was originally designed for, but it would reduce complaints from people contending with IC tattoos in PVP situations, and would reduce the virtually unkillable toughness of shocked-out Empaths.

<<I think IC isn't as bad as some people say it is. It caps at ~hard hit, which you definitely can't take a ton of before going down, and I have no sympathy for people complaining about not being able to instant kill people. However, I do think it's overtuned, and should be addressed.

1. You can take many more hits than you should be able to. If you would die in 1 shot, and with IC it takes 20.... thats a pretty significant difference and breaks any hint of balance that is in the game. Sure no one wants to die in 1 shot. But hey, equality for all eh? Skill shouldn't matter eh? Remove consequence Eh?
2. You have no sympathy about not being able to instantly kill people, Yet are totally OK with 1 spell completely nullifying virtually all offense in the game by an enormous margin. Ok sure. Like I said before, plenty of people will be angry when their invincibility is nerfed.
3. Lets not pretend IC is the only barrier being used. You can negate damage up to 99% when stacking it with other barriers. Not a problem, sure ok.

<<It wouldn't require making the spell signature (something I imagine wouldn't be easy to do with all these tattoos and such out anyway), nor would it reduce the impact for those I would assume the spell was originally designed for, but it would reduce complaints from people contending with IC tattoos in PVP situations, and would reduce the virtually unkillable toughness of shocked-out Empaths.

Ah the real reason why everyone wants to ignore it. BUT MY MT ITEMS I PAID FOR IT. Plenty of things previously bought have been nerfed to the ground. As game changing as this spell is, and the fact that similar spells are either sig or are much more limited in power vs non-guild members means this spell is out of place.

Do tell, what was the spell originally designed for? I would have guessed for empaths, not the general public. The same public that had MAF being nerfed ( MAF was NOTHING compared to IC ) for being too powerful. Yet screw it, hey do you never want to die? Spend $30 and get your very own IC tattoo!

I imagine this conversation would be quite different if they released an item for $30 that let you kill anything regardless of skill at will. But sure! Balanced! Right...

>The same public that had MAF being nerfed ( MAF was NOTHING compared to IC ) for being too powerful.
Just to be clear, MAF was nerf .v critters. It is actually stronger when the attack is originating from a PC.

More generally I'd ask everyone to please think about tone and content when posting. Please refrain from accusing people with differing opinions of ulterior motives. Perhaps stick with addressing the points of the post, not perceived hidden agendas.

~Hunter Hanryu
>I would like to avoid the collection of broken dreams and sorrow that is the Ranger guild.~Agalea

>>Just to be clear, MAF was nerf .v critters. It is actually stronger when the attack is originating from a PC.

Just to be clear, you have been using the excuse that IC is good for the game due to PVE. I never specified what aspect of MAF was nerfed. It seems a tad bit ironic since you have been consistently holding the argument that IC is good for the game in PVE while ignoring the impact it has in PVP. If you truly believe IC is necessary for end game creatures, then you are over hunting. I have rarely seen a hit above hard hit in PVE at level. It certainly does not increase my hunting time before needing to be healed on the magic user I have in end game creatures.


>>More generally I'd ask everyone to please think about tone and content when posting. Please refrain from accusing people with differing opinions of ulterior motives. Perhaps stick with addressing the points of the post, not perceived hidden agendas.

I'll post how I see fit. This is DR, the land of ulterior motives. People wanting to keep something knowing full well its broken? That isn't a hidden agenda, judging by most of the defense posts I'd say its a out in the open agenda.

Stick with the points, here are just a few:

1. IC ignores all damage down to hard hits regardless of skill. Add other wards to the mix and its very possible to reduce an otherwise deadly hit down to a light or insignificant hit. Multiple logs have been posted. Anyone that has IC knows this full well, I can see only 2 possibilities for denying how significant ward stacking + IC is. Either you can't read clearly or you have an ulterior motive. I remember a very specific female trader in the 600 skill range killing 200ths without fear of consequence due to this. I know more than a few people that have become self proclaimed PVP stars under the protection of IC. How is it 1 ability can change the game so much?

2. It's hard to argue that IC is a game changing ability. Only 2 guilds do not have access too it.

On a broad scale this is a problem with the sorcery system. Step back for a moment and imagine how broken any other RPG would be if classes were allowed to pick 3 other classes skills. If the game wasn't designed around it, it would be extremely broken. Now imagine 2 of those classes are not allowed into the pool of abilities from other classes. I would hope those 2 classes would be strong enough not to rely on something they dont have access too. Yet here we are. In DR each guild was designed around strengths and weaknesses. Sorcery allows you to cover those weaknesses for all but 2 guild. Those other 2 guilds have to just live with their weaknesses. How do I know? I've trained and pvp'd MU and NMU's from 0 to end game.If sorcery breaks all balance of the game, then IC dug the whole and buried it. Sure there are wands and magical items, oh wait those are half potency so that is far from a apples to apples comparison.

3. IC meets all the requirements for a signature spell. It's unique, it's significantly more powerful than anything else in it's class, it nullifies other entire systems in game. But hey!

Does paying for it guarantee protection from nerfs or removal of said item or ability? I'm almost certain I've been paying for dragon realms for years and have had plenty of abilities in the guilds I play either completely removed, or reworked into uselessness. I've had items I've payed for in fests drastically reduced in usefulness as another bigger and better item is released that does the job significantly better.

Why is it people are willing to pay 2x 3x 5x 10x of the original cost of the IC tattoo? Are you telling me its because of the rare instances where a creature lands a hit larger than hard in PVE? Or maybe perhaps it gives folks peace of mind with extreme protection from any source of damage in the game regardless of skill with very few exceptions.

So after all that why is IC still in the sorcery system? In my opinion its a giant bandaid for 3.0. It's a band aid for the enormous skill gaps. It removes much of the risk and consequence from the game both PVP and less significantly in PVE. Quite simply it makes everyone more or less the same. It also ruins the fun and unique aspects of what made DR PVP so thrilling and unique. Strengths and weaknesses, skills,using tactics (not the skill) to take down someone bigger, Roleplay influences (Do you handle situations differently if there is no risk of death?), and pretty much takes barbs and thieves off the table for pvping.

Worst of all there is already a system in place for people that don't want to pvp in DR. Go closed profile. Does that make you immune to pvp? No because consent exist. However, IC will make sure that consent doesn't mean much depending on the guild consent was granted to.

Will it ever be changed? Unlikely. I posted about IC after sorcery was introduced and was always told it would be apart of the barrier rewrite. Well that was some years ago and here we are still. 3.0 was suppose to balance the game compared to 2.0. Well, at this point 2.0 seems like it was walking on a tight rope compared to the disaster of balance currently in the game.

I propose a new khri and form called Iron Dagger Yo and Iron Biceps that turn good hits into apocalyptic hits.

>>I’d honestly be curious about how many non-empaths actually have/cast IC because it’s framed as a notable portion of Prime is running around casting it in all kinds of situations to the point that it’s impossible to PvP without running into it and something something disruptive in PvE.

For people to be offering "name your price" in buying the tattoo, the list of people below having an input into how IC dose not fit with the game as a spell open to any guild and the buzz on discord about its use and how its makes you practically invulnerable is kinda all you need to go by.

Rifkinn

>I'm more curious about both how much using IC influences regular PvE/PvP and how big (or little) of an impact changing IC would have.

For PvE it's a nice cushion to have in combination with other barriers. I think combined with the increasing prevalence of cyclical aoe debilitation and the flexibility/ease of sorcery in Current Year, hunting at the high end has been trivialized more than intended and overall power level of magic/TM in particular should probably be lowered. That's just a personal opinion though, I don't think PvE is fundamentally broken.

For PvP it is fundamentally broken at the high end. Legitimate discussion has been had about banning it from some forms of structured PvP like Wyvern Trials, which to my knowledge is unprecedented in the long history of DR PvP. There has always been stuff people whine about and stuff that was arguably OP at various points in time, but I have never seen someone legit be untouchable against players with 600+ more ranks in offensive skills relative to their defense.

Iron Constitution isn't the only offender, and even with sorcery this is only possible for a few guilds with a strong suit of their own barriers to combine with Manifest Force/Lay Ward/Iron Constitution, guilds such as Traders and Empaths and Clerics.

We made moves to normalize combat by doing things like giving disablers diminishing returns and drastically reducing the scope of disabler power (immobilize used to set evasion to 0). We standardized buffs across guilds so that one evasion booster wasn't more valuable than another based on GM whim. Spells like Iron Constitution and Arbiter's Stylus seem (to me) to spit in the face of this normalization.

It's good that normalized disablers, it was ridiculous old immobilize could be an effective debuff to 1000+ evasion. Please treat modern barriers the same, it's unacceptable that barrier stacking can negate 500+ ranks of offense.

From the original design plan for barriers circa 2015:

"many barriers right now are far too broad and stacking becomes far too powerful. It makes barrier spells very uninteresting and hard to develop and differentiate from one another.

First of all, there will be two different types of damage barriers, Damage Barriers and Damage Wards (terms subject to change if someone suggests something I like better).

Wards
These are, mechanically, very similar to what we have now. They'll be applied through a core mechanic for more consistency and generally be narrower than they have in the past. They represent the ability to endure more damage.
*Percentage based damage reduction (With possibly a very small amount of flat reduction).
*Applied after armor.
*Applies to all attacks.
*Limited to one Ward at a time.
*NMUs will generally have access to stronger effects here since they won't have access to the second type of barrier.

Barriers
These are new and represent intercepting an attack with a magical force (Yes, many existing spells like Cage of Light appear to work this way based on messaging... but they don't).
*Flat reduction of damage
*Applied before armor, but after defenses are checked (This is a necessary limitation of the combat system).
*Chance to proc on every attack, but will not intercept all attacks.
*Ablates with every hit. If the barrier breaks for any reason before it would naturally expire a new one cannot be formed until the natural duration expires.
*Limited to one Barrier at a time.

Barriers in particular are intended to be more useful to lightly armored caster types - they're capable of soaking a lot of damage, but they're also capable of leaving you suddenly vulnerable if something does manage to break through them. Meanwhile, Wards are a more constant form of protection, but some damage will slip through over time."

- Raesh

---

Later, the "barrier" type evolved into "aegis" which begins in a passive non-ablative mode but can be invoked to block damage on every attack while becoming ablative. Under this plan, I think IC would be an aegis type which fixes all the issues:

- IC would either be ablative, or only have a chance to proc when hit.
- It would be 1 of your 2 barriers, not stacked on top of an unlimited number of other spells.

It's not for lack of ideas that barriers are broken - it's due to the fact that the balancing concepts they had from the beginning were never implemented.

Since the "Barrier Rewrite" is a very long-term project, here is a way to adjust IC without needing a big system update along with it:

- Make IC ablative with a modest health pool, able to block a handful of big hits that would otherwise deal massive damage - but then it breaks, it can't just keep blocking infinite damage.

- IC should only have a chance to activate when hit which scales based on the mana used. A capped cast could have something like a 50% chance to trigger.

- Lastly, give Empaths a signature metamagic spell that removes both of those limitations, returning IC to the original non-ablative, 100% damage blocking beast that it was before.

>Easy way to adjust it is to make it signature......

This is not a realistic solution now that people have paid RL money for IC tattoos. There are a number of other fixes available.

>Totally disagree, this is just the excuse people are using to keep it.

Well, I totally disagree because

A) Going signature and giving refund won't happen. Discussing it in the context of other companies like retailers is pointless. Game companies in general don't provide refunds for changes to game mechanics (they, like Simu, reserve the right to change mechanics at their discretion), and Whatley would never approve it. Not a 1% chance. Not a 0.00001% chance. Pointless.

B) You can fix it without making it signature. A half-dozen different ways to do this have been proposed in good faith.

B) Barrier stacking is a core pvp issue and I'm much rather address that than just single out IC. IC is a bad offender of damage mitigation but people becoming invincible in PvP also require spells like Manifest Force and Elision.