Just wanted to say thanks!

Agreed.

Thanks Modrian.

Always fun.

What are the chances we could get a) rule changes, or b) alternate rules, and c) some new levels?

It would be nice to see a couple of rule tweaks to cut down on the button-mashey-ness of it all. But I am guessing PC is some scary old code that wouldn't be fun to play with.

I know we've seen at least one new level in the last few years so it must be possible.

-E

I missed PC again? I need to start looking at the calendar more often. But yeah, Modrian is the man and PC is awesome. Would be even more awesome if we can get more than one section filled. I tend to feel like I'm beating players into the ground when I play and that can't be fun for other people.

Since people seem to like to complain that I ruin their day, let me propose some things to make it run better.

1. Make missed waves (person not in the room) cause RT.
2. Remove the pennant colors. Years ago they just used to all be "pennants" then you made them colors to stop macro users. But then you make a whole front end with point and click, which ignores the need for colors. As such, stormfront users dominate PC and the only way a wizard user can compete is scripting. Any user who doesn't script or doesn't use stormfront P&C has no chance. If you remove the colors you make it much easier for manual typers or macro users to compete, effectively getting rid of the competitive advantage scripters & P&C-ers enjoy.
3. If you wanted to get really communist with it, you could make pennants heavy, the more your hold, the higher your RTs. Like a handicap.

I am a pretty big PC fan, always played as a player. I never used third-party software, I was a host during the psinet days, and lich wasn't out when I started hosting (and GameHosts aren't allowed to use third-party software). Anyway... I have never run a script for PC, pure typing and macros here, and my macros are very primitive for PC. All I have is WAVE MY BATON AT @ and POINT MY BATON AT @ PENNANT. And I've dominated PC. Just ask GM Modrian! While scripting PC sure does knock the wind out of the game, it doesn't make the game impossible to win. The WAVE incurring RT is a good idea though. I'm not sure how point and click makes anything superior either. Easier to type than try to point and click on the links as fast as I can type.

And just to make it clear, these are my opinions as a player of the game. I'm not in charge of the system.

---

~Wyrom, ASGM
Host Manager
GameMaster Trainer
Honorary QC Lackey

>Or, you know, you could just consider PC scripting to be in the "disruptive scripting" category and against the rules. I don't understand how designing a script to win in a vs. contest could be considered anything but disruptive. Seems to me that's pretty much the definition of disruptive.

Someone being better than you is always going to be disruptive to you.

Years ago wizards were best at PC because of the spells they could use, namely invisibility. People complained it wasn't fair. Then they turned off spells inside the arena.

Then rogues were the best, people complained it wasn't fair, then they turned off hiding. (they may have actually done hiding & spells at the same time, I don't remember exactly).

Then rogues were still the best, because, believe it or not, success was based on stat bonuses and agility + dexterity (though, wasn't agility called something else?...) the two rogue prime requisites, were used. All you needed was a really high bonus in both and you could hardly ever be hit by a baton, you'd dodge them all. The right profession + the right race and you were a ringer. People complained it wasn't fair, and they turned off the modifier.

Then they got rid of stat bonuses, then macro users were the best. Of course, it isn't as if macros are some high end technology, but believe it or not some people had no clue, and quite frankly had no idea that there was any strategy involved in the game either. But, anyways, people complained, so they adopted the pennant random color system to get rid of pennant macros.

But sometime they added stormfront and allowed you to use point&click with PC, and stormfront users got a huge advantage. Specifically because clicking at the word pennant on your screen is easier than typing "point my baton at peacock-green pennant" You cannot macro every color possibility. So it is scripting, to use a regular expression to parse, or P&Cing, that have the advantage.

For waving... waving is still competitive for macro users vs scripters or P&Cers, because rounds are so small it is easy to make macros for all the players and you can just hammer them. But pennants provide so much points that for actually winning rounds it is very hard.

Of course there is strategy too that can give you a big lead early in the rounds that it is hard to be pulled down.

Now considering there is no actual way to police scripting without just penalizing anyone who is better or faster, and that it isn't really that much stronger than P&Cing, I don't think that is an option. There are however options you could do it make it more even, like I suggested. Until then, hate the game, don't hate the player.

>People who pound the keypad return to recall last command input to wave at a specific person. If you don't think that happens, trust me, it does. Also, some people wave really basic scripts that they enter in all players who are playing, and each time they move, they run the script to attempt to wave at every person playing.

That is the other thing, I'm certainly not the only one with a PC script, mine might be better than most, but many many people have them, and others who just are good and know what they're doing can beat me without using a script (or, at least they say they aren't, can't really prove that though - I'll admit it). I've lost regularly in the past to people who know what they're doing. Just off the top of my head I believe Rimalon and Raelee are both quite good, though I usually only play a couple times a year because I'm usually busy sunday afternoons so it has been awhile. Many times my victories have more to do with strategy than scripting anyways. I was still good and regularly won before lich ever existed. I've never seen a PC match, in fact, in the last 15 years or whatever, that wasn't uncompetitive from top to bottom. There are always people who are better, and always people who don't know which end of the baton is what.

So suppose Kerl you just got rid of evil me, the best scripters, what happens? Now the second best scripters who use the simpler scripts or wizard scripts, basic stuff, win. Or maybe the macro people do, or the P&Cers. I personally think a P&Cer getting pennants while running a basic wave script or macro set would do the best. In anycase, it'll just be someone else, possibly still me, winning every round just with different tools. I did place third with an alt in the last (afaik) major tournament they ran for PC, out of hundreds of contests (sometime in the 90s). The one where we got droughtman style prizes (mine was an acid flaring morphing weapon). Didn't script at all then as I recall.

But anyways, even my script will try to wave at people who have left the room. If someone moves quickly there is no way to avoid it. Of course, that'll happen to manual typers too, but it'd slow everyone down, which seems to be what people want. So a wave miss penalty would deal with that.

You could also put up dreaded move RT, people hate that, but it would slow things down.

I think handicapping the players with the most pennants would be best, if not more RT, perhaps a lower free time counter after being bubbled?

The point is, if you're going to try to make the game more balanced, don't target a specific technology, then you end up with things like the colored pennants which actually gives scripters a larger advantage. Target the game itself. If you handicap people who are in the lead, you're not caring how they got in the lead, you're just making sure people behind have a chance. It is sorta socialist, but if that is what people want, that is a way.

Of course... everyone does sort of win. Assuming you're not a newbie, and you know what you're doing, if the round is big enough (round size affects overall point totals) you can reliably get a few hundred xp + treasure per round. Not as much as the winner, sure, but more than you could get hunting. Of course, no matter what, there will only ever be 1 winner per round. If you require being #1 to be happy you're likely never to be so unless you play a round of 1.

<<So suppose Kerl you just got rid of evil me, the best scripters, what happens? Now the second best scripters who use the simpler scripts or wizard scripts, basic stuff, win. Or maybe the macro people do, or the P&Cers... -Aspen>>

Cry me a river. I wasn't aware I had such power, but thank you for the compliment. I mentioned no names whatsoever to anyone, though I did suggest that perhaps scripting such an event should be considered disruptive. Sounds to me like I wasn't the only one who didn't care for it. Sorry you feel so oppressed.

Kerl

Script hunting is tolerated because it doesn't impact other players' gaming experience. That's fine. Scripting a competitive, zero-sum game like pennant chase is another matter. Your automation of the system makes the game less fun and less rewarding for other players. You know why there are only 5 or 6 people that show up for PC these days? Scripters. You're just trying to maximize your own profit at the expense of other people's fun.

Congratulations. You've killed the game.

Droit

---

Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""

~ Two silvers worth.

I like PC, have liked it for years, and I do try to play when I am available and it opens up. I usually do pretty well at it too. Yesterday's was the first game I have left before the end. I am not certain of being back for a while either. Sad day.

~
From behind the cell door, a giantman's gruff voice shouts, "You should have killed me when you could have!"

Old subject...old topic... but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Some people script. Some people don't. Some people are just awesome at typing and are super competitive, others just want to relax with friends. So? Separate them.

Providing you get enough people, you could use a ranking/tier system. Start new players in a random room, or a "New Player" room. At the end of the first round, folks are redistributed to new rooms based on the kind of score you got.
Did really well? You get bumped into a room with more veteran players or scripters. Just want to stroll about and click? You get put in a room with similar minded folks based on how you are performing.

That way, you have tiered rooms based on how competent/aggressive the players are.

As the games progress in the new format, your ranking (saved between PC dates) determines which room you get put in automatically when you walk into the tent for each new PC game.

-Cait

Sometimes people can just type fast. Deal with it and put the game back on.