Well, Sorcerer doc looks amazing. Great work.
here is a copy:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vFQcOJVAVCMLnXD8UksBBxgFJDJE4xMVXCdVmxXPFBk/edit
I love how the lores are incorporated, qol changes, and the pets. I love the focus how each character can customize their demon or necro. Great job.
One thing I would like to see is to see if we can fit in how spirit lores and elemental lores can be integraged. I think the point is we combine spirit and elemental lores and they seem to play little roles.
Can DC get a buff from spirit lores?
I cant wait for my big bad demon. I've been waiting 20 years for this.
Happy Xred's player
XRED
XRED
Re: Sorcerer Doc
03/18/2021 10:17 AM CDT
Also would like to see how we could incorporate open hands, braw/shield, one/shield also.
Who wants to use a runetwig all the time?
JTU
Re: Sorcerer Doc
03/18/2021 10:09 PM CDT
>Who wants to use a runetwig all the time?
I've felt the same way with at least one of my pure characters. A real lazy and easy way to address this would be to add a couple more weapon bases with the same mechanics as runestaves, like ceremonial swords or sacrificial daggers/athames, this way pure casting characters can have more types of weapons to chose from other than just staves. You can even have ceremonial shields (pentacles and whatnot) set with the same runestaff mechanics for those that want to RP a caster with a shield.
Design to help sorcs who choose to train in weapon skills be more viable would be neat, too.
I've felt the same way with at least one of my pure characters. A real lazy and easy way to address this would be to add a couple more weapon bases with the same mechanics as runestaves, like ceremonial swords or sacrificial daggers/athames, this way pure casting characters can have more types of weapons to chose from other than just staves. You can even have ceremonial shields (pentacles and whatnot) set with the same runestaff mechanics for those that want to RP a caster with a shield.
Design to help sorcs who choose to train in weapon skills be more viable would be neat, too.
TARAKAN
Sorcerer Design Update Constructive Criticism
03/27/2021 09:06 AM CDT
I know a lot of initial reaction and discussion to the sorcery design change proposals occurred on DISCORD, but that format is not best for detailed discussion. I am frankly very surprised that there is not a substantial thread here.
Holistically, I would like to know what fundamentally changed in design/game-balance paradigm that now tolerates and promotes "pets" for combat effectiveness. For decades the party line on any such proposals was always a very clear, "NO, NEVER". I obviously don't mind the shift, but it is a curious 180 that will undoubtedly have many unforeseen consequences to balance with creature design. It also makes me wonder if Major Demons - the dreaded kind that are used in invasions and cataclysmic wars - will be able to also summon armies of lesser hordes and/or be innately able to seize control of a sorcerer's MINOR pets and turn them on the caster.
The incorporation of sorcery lore is a welcome addition, but the polarities of choice are very stark. If 200 rank specialists in necro/demon are uniquely empowered, there should be a third equally powerful option pathway for the 100/100 hybrid too. In particular with 750, this build should get the same number of summoned total critters in the horde, but have them be 6 of one and 5 of the other.
Will the sorcerer glean any benefits against sheer fear if surrounded by summoned undead from this spell?
Why not flesh out the summoned pets more by incorporating the elemental and spiritual lores in the powers and/or types of summoned creatures available. The elemental attunement of the sorcerer combined with ranks of elemental lore should favor one type of demon valence over another. Why are we limiting the attack demon form to imps using fire, for example? I would much rather summon an earth-based GRIK who could cast some of those elemental spells.
What about the underwhelming current form of the sorcerer guild? The guild needs to be completely overhauled conceptually at the same time as the spell circles are reviewed, as they should work together in some meaningful way. What about those of us who know demon summoning runes? Those abilities should be worked into the changes somehow creatively.
The current SACRIFICE effect is very helpful for sorcerers who cannot WRACK, but still difficult/dangerous to achieve against powerful foes of same level or higher. Will the new mechanic for success still depend mostly on level vs. level, and if so, we should have a new curse buff that lowers the effective level of the foe by 5 levels with enough necrology lore. This would also help the effectiveness of SMRv2 attacks. Is there a thought to now make players vulnerable to sacrifice by monsters? IF so, there could be a new Duskruin item that buffs defensive level against SMRv2 attacks?
Spirit needs to be considered too in many of these spell concepts. A wracking sorcerer with low spirit should not be able to control a summoned powerful pet anywhere near as well as someone with 11 or 12 spirit. Spirit summoning lore should find a way into something here too.
The proposed new buff to 740 will need all of the capped hunting areas reworked first too. Those of us with Ithzir armor have waited patiently for years for these limitations to be addressed. If fixed, Ithzir armor has the benefit of keeping you in the hunting area but in a safe room to heal and go right back to the fray (to possibly recover a disarmed weapon in the room or pick up the loot on the ground). I'm surprised we'll be able to control the exit room so precisely, as 130 remains with frustrating randomness despite a lot of required training to reduce odious RT upon fogging out.
Will the hordes and other summoned pets benefit further from being spelled up?
716 is a nice reactive defensive spell in its current form. More monsters should wear it routinely, but to be fair, there should be an improvement to 104 and racial resistances too. Extra damage is nice to be sure, but disease would be better conceptually if it instantly deteriorated the foe's ability to concentrate, heal, or avoid maneuvers. Adding a 20% chance to fumble an attack rather than extra damage is my preference.
I hope 710 has been thoroughly tested at cap before rolling out the changes. Right now that spell is too heavily dependent on level vs. level to have practical use for most capped sorcerers. Again, the actual elemental and spiritual lores known by the sorcerer would seemingly be a great addition to its flavor and efficacy. A highly trained spiritual sorcerer could gain a spirit drain effect in the maelstrom that had a 703 effect with hard RT and -10% health, for example.
Finally, I remain perplexed by how my character will be able to resolve the role-playing history and pride of being a Master in Voln with the seemingly capricious manipulation of undead in these new spells. I suppose the fact that we are only temporarily torturing souls rather than trying to permanently create them is a possible excuse, but there should be something from the Order and High Priests of Lorminstra and Koar allowing a special dispensation to practice this way and remain in good standing. These are the kinds of slippery slopes that lead to demon wars and cataclysmic apocalypse. I can't believe the Argent Mirror is going to embrace all these new demons running amok after so much collective loss and mistrust historically.
Tarakan
Holistically, I would like to know what fundamentally changed in design/game-balance paradigm that now tolerates and promotes "pets" for combat effectiveness. For decades the party line on any such proposals was always a very clear, "NO, NEVER". I obviously don't mind the shift, but it is a curious 180 that will undoubtedly have many unforeseen consequences to balance with creature design. It also makes me wonder if Major Demons - the dreaded kind that are used in invasions and cataclysmic wars - will be able to also summon armies of lesser hordes and/or be innately able to seize control of a sorcerer's MINOR pets and turn them on the caster.
The incorporation of sorcery lore is a welcome addition, but the polarities of choice are very stark. If 200 rank specialists in necro/demon are uniquely empowered, there should be a third equally powerful option pathway for the 100/100 hybrid too. In particular with 750, this build should get the same number of summoned total critters in the horde, but have them be 6 of one and 5 of the other.
Will the sorcerer glean any benefits against sheer fear if surrounded by summoned undead from this spell?
Why not flesh out the summoned pets more by incorporating the elemental and spiritual lores in the powers and/or types of summoned creatures available. The elemental attunement of the sorcerer combined with ranks of elemental lore should favor one type of demon valence over another. Why are we limiting the attack demon form to imps using fire, for example? I would much rather summon an earth-based GRIK who could cast some of those elemental spells.
What about the underwhelming current form of the sorcerer guild? The guild needs to be completely overhauled conceptually at the same time as the spell circles are reviewed, as they should work together in some meaningful way. What about those of us who know demon summoning runes? Those abilities should be worked into the changes somehow creatively.
The current SACRIFICE effect is very helpful for sorcerers who cannot WRACK, but still difficult/dangerous to achieve against powerful foes of same level or higher. Will the new mechanic for success still depend mostly on level vs. level, and if so, we should have a new curse buff that lowers the effective level of the foe by 5 levels with enough necrology lore. This would also help the effectiveness of SMRv2 attacks. Is there a thought to now make players vulnerable to sacrifice by monsters? IF so, there could be a new Duskruin item that buffs defensive level against SMRv2 attacks?
Spirit needs to be considered too in many of these spell concepts. A wracking sorcerer with low spirit should not be able to control a summoned powerful pet anywhere near as well as someone with 11 or 12 spirit. Spirit summoning lore should find a way into something here too.
The proposed new buff to 740 will need all of the capped hunting areas reworked first too. Those of us with Ithzir armor have waited patiently for years for these limitations to be addressed. If fixed, Ithzir armor has the benefit of keeping you in the hunting area but in a safe room to heal and go right back to the fray (to possibly recover a disarmed weapon in the room or pick up the loot on the ground). I'm surprised we'll be able to control the exit room so precisely, as 130 remains with frustrating randomness despite a lot of required training to reduce odious RT upon fogging out.
Will the hordes and other summoned pets benefit further from being spelled up?
716 is a nice reactive defensive spell in its current form. More monsters should wear it routinely, but to be fair, there should be an improvement to 104 and racial resistances too. Extra damage is nice to be sure, but disease would be better conceptually if it instantly deteriorated the foe's ability to concentrate, heal, or avoid maneuvers. Adding a 20% chance to fumble an attack rather than extra damage is my preference.
I hope 710 has been thoroughly tested at cap before rolling out the changes. Right now that spell is too heavily dependent on level vs. level to have practical use for most capped sorcerers. Again, the actual elemental and spiritual lores known by the sorcerer would seemingly be a great addition to its flavor and efficacy. A highly trained spiritual sorcerer could gain a spirit drain effect in the maelstrom that had a 703 effect with hard RT and -10% health, for example.
Finally, I remain perplexed by how my character will be able to resolve the role-playing history and pride of being a Master in Voln with the seemingly capricious manipulation of undead in these new spells. I suppose the fact that we are only temporarily torturing souls rather than trying to permanently create them is a possible excuse, but there should be something from the Order and High Priests of Lorminstra and Koar allowing a special dispensation to practice this way and remain in good standing. These are the kinds of slippery slopes that lead to demon wars and cataclysmic apocalypse. I can't believe the Argent Mirror is going to embrace all these new demons running amok after so much collective loss and mistrust historically.
Tarakan
OM1E5GA
Re: Sorcerer Design Update Constructive Criticism
03/27/2021 09:37 AM CDT
<716 is a nice reactive defensive spell in its current form. More monsters should wear it routinely,>
Tomb troll necromancers don't gen with it, but will cast it if left alone long enough. Was bloody annoying when hunting them with my warrior.
Also, there's been a conversation taking place on the forums over in development since the sorcerer doc came out. I dunno why it wasn't put here, but you might wanna repost this over there.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Tomb troll necromancers don't gen with it, but will cast it if left alone long enough. Was bloody annoying when hunting them with my warrior.
Also, there's been a conversation taking place on the forums over in development since the sorcerer doc came out. I dunno why it wasn't put here, but you might wanna repost this over there.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
