To those of you who are more experienced as sorcerers, do you believe that bolting is worth training or should I just stay pure CS? I come with more experience as a wizard, so relying on CS only feels a little ...odd. I like the idea of being able to go either way depending on what I'm hunting, but then I just wonder if it's really necessary? Thanks for any advice!
SAXMAN
OM1E5GA
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/21/2020 11:06 PM CDT
<To those of you who are more experienced as sorcerers, do you believe that bolting is worth training or should I just stay pure CS? I come with more experience as a wizard, so relying on CS only feels a little ...odd. I like the idea of being able to go either way depending on what I'm hunting, but then I just wonder if it's really necessary? Thanks for any advice!>
Unless you're looking for the challenge of a mutant build or doing it for RP reasons, I wouldn't suggest bothering with bolting. At level 89, there's never been a situation where I've felt that using any of the 4 bolt/ball spells available was the best option... if I even remember they are an option.
705 and 118 require 20 ranks in Necro lore and Summoning lore respectively just to get access to them, 713 is probably the worst ball spell in Gemstone even with Demon lore, and while 111 is a great ball spell, the TPs you'd want to spend in summoning lore for it to reach it's full potential really could be better spent elsewhere. So if you're going to be bolting as a sorcerer, your CS (which is our bread and butter.... and the knife used to spread the butter) is going to suffer to get access to an attack that will cost more time and mana per kill then if you'd just used a CS spell.
That said, there are valid reasons for training 2x in Spell Aiming, esp at lower levels. In the late teens through most of the 20's focused Maelstrom allowed me to finish a hunt with my own mana (probably not as much of a problem with the recent changes to Harness Power), being able to target specific limbs is handy against critters that are immune to stuns, and focused 720 saved my butt more times then I can count when I found myself in over my head. Eventually, as you find yourself using those spells less, you might want to unlearn SA to put those TPs into spells... but in the first 50-60 levels they're good options to have.
Assuming you're 1x in Necromancy for the benefits to 701, 711, 716, and 735, if you're also training in SA for the benefits mentioned above there's no reason not to try the bolt version of 705 and seeing what you think of it. That wasn't an option for me until my sorcerer was in his 50's. It might be useful in the teens or 20's when overcoming the TDs of critters can be challenging.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Unless you're looking for the challenge of a mutant build or doing it for RP reasons, I wouldn't suggest bothering with bolting. At level 89, there's never been a situation where I've felt that using any of the 4 bolt/ball spells available was the best option... if I even remember they are an option.
705 and 118 require 20 ranks in Necro lore and Summoning lore respectively just to get access to them, 713 is probably the worst ball spell in Gemstone even with Demon lore, and while 111 is a great ball spell, the TPs you'd want to spend in summoning lore for it to reach it's full potential really could be better spent elsewhere. So if you're going to be bolting as a sorcerer, your CS (which is our bread and butter.... and the knife used to spread the butter) is going to suffer to get access to an attack that will cost more time and mana per kill then if you'd just used a CS spell.
That said, there are valid reasons for training 2x in Spell Aiming, esp at lower levels. In the late teens through most of the 20's focused Maelstrom allowed me to finish a hunt with my own mana (probably not as much of a problem with the recent changes to Harness Power), being able to target specific limbs is handy against critters that are immune to stuns, and focused 720 saved my butt more times then I can count when I found myself in over my head. Eventually, as you find yourself using those spells less, you might want to unlearn SA to put those TPs into spells... but in the first 50-60 levels they're good options to have.
Assuming you're 1x in Necromancy for the benefits to 701, 711, 716, and 735, if you're also training in SA for the benefits mentioned above there's no reason not to try the bolt version of 705 and seeing what you think of it. That wasn't an option for me until my sorcerer was in his 50's. It might be useful in the teens or 20's when overcoming the TDs of critters can be challenging.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
AVAIA
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/22/2020 10:08 AM CDT
I am one of the few left who will post in favor of Spell Aim. I was adamantly against it for years(We are Sorcerers not Wizards!) so didn't train it until way post-cap. In hindsight I regret that I resisted it for so long. It's fun. Not to mention the fact that if you are the type who enjoys the micro-management of Scroll Infusion you can keep up quite the respectable AS. You will want to have the Star Curse bonus up at all times, but that is not really a big deal. Cast it on anything you are normally hunting and you will extend the duration when the critter dies.
Is it the "most efficient" way to do things? No, but as I said it is fun and this is a game. If you think you would enjoy it, do it!
I am sure more posters will be along shortly to tell you how much it sucks and that you will hamstring your character by training it. It doesn't, and you won't.
Avaia, player of
Is it the "most efficient" way to do things? No, but as I said it is fun and this is a game. If you think you would enjoy it, do it!
I am sure more posters will be along shortly to tell you how much it sucks and that you will hamstring your character by training it. It doesn't, and you won't.
Avaia, player of
OM1E5GA
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/22/2020 11:01 AM CDT
<I was adamantly against it for years(We are Sorcerers not Wizards!) so didn't train it until way post-cap.>
<I am sure more posters will be along shortly to tell you how much it sucks and that you will hamstring your character by training it. It doesn't, and you won't.>
I'm not arguing against you, but it is important to remember that being post-cap does lift a lot of the constraints imposed on those still leveling up. Having the TPs required to train in both SA and all the lores necessary to be proficient in bolting without having to sacrifice CS being the big one.
It's certainly possible to be a proficient bolter pre-cap, but it's going to come at the expense of something else. Unless you consider a sorcerer that occasionally makes used of the bolt version of 705 to be a "bolting sorcerer".
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
<I am sure more posters will be along shortly to tell you how much it sucks and that you will hamstring your character by training it. It doesn't, and you won't.>
I'm not arguing against you, but it is important to remember that being post-cap does lift a lot of the constraints imposed on those still leveling up. Having the TPs required to train in both SA and all the lores necessary to be proficient in bolting without having to sacrifice CS being the big one.
It's certainly possible to be a proficient bolter pre-cap, but it's going to come at the expense of something else. Unless you consider a sorcerer that occasionally makes used of the bolt version of 705 to be a "bolting sorcerer".
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
AVAIA
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/22/2020 11:46 AM CDT
Where is Virilneus when I need him?
I understand what you are saying, Starchitin, but maximizing CS is not necessarily the be-all-end-all; and bolting can be used with success before you can Web Bolt or use 705. Wands, for example, are great fun. I capped with 2x -maybe 2.3x in spells or so, never more than 1x Sorcerer Circle, and never once did I feel like my CS was too low/had any particular stand-out problems warding things. This is an inconceivable idea to most modern players, for whom level+21 in Sorcerer Circle is king and god.
Do you have to make trade-offs? Sure. but there is no one correct way to train any class in this game. As long as I am around I will keep reminding folks of that fact.
Avaia, player of
I understand what you are saying, Starchitin, but maximizing CS is not necessarily the be-all-end-all; and bolting can be used with success before you can Web Bolt or use 705. Wands, for example, are great fun. I capped with 2x -maybe 2.3x in spells or so, never more than 1x Sorcerer Circle, and never once did I feel like my CS was too low/had any particular stand-out problems warding things. This is an inconceivable idea to most modern players, for whom level+21 in Sorcerer Circle is king and god.
Do you have to make trade-offs? Sure. but there is no one correct way to train any class in this game. As long as I am around I will keep reminding folks of that fact.
Avaia, player of
SAXMAN
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/22/2020 10:46 PM CDT
I do appreciate the pros and cons points. Obviously, if I don't put 20 ranks into necromancy lore, and don't train spell aiming, I can triple train spells far more often. The primary downside, is I feel like it'll take some of the fun away from the character. I will probably hit 20 in about 2 or 3 more days with my sorcerer, so I'm still listening to your opinions. I'm leaning a bit towards keeping it, but every time I really think about it I feel like those points are just better off in other things.
DOUG
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/22/2020 10:52 PM CDT
>>The primary downside, is I feel like it'll take some of the fun away from the character.
What more need be said?
Goals are important, and sometimes 'fun' doesn't line up with 'maximized skill' in this land. I am probably known best (worst?) for debating the 'fun' side as far more important than any mathematical result. But that's my goal, and others may have a different goal in mind for their enjoyment.
In the end - if you're having fun with it, as Avaia points out, it will work. So. . . have fun! It really doesn't matter if a player's idea of fun is trading off to do multiple things, or pursuing perfection (in so much as one can). Really.
Doug
What more need be said?
Goals are important, and sometimes 'fun' doesn't line up with 'maximized skill' in this land. I am probably known best (worst?) for debating the 'fun' side as far more important than any mathematical result. But that's my goal, and others may have a different goal in mind for their enjoyment.
In the end - if you're having fun with it, as Avaia points out, it will work. So. . . have fun! It really doesn't matter if a player's idea of fun is trading off to do multiple things, or pursuing perfection (in so much as one can). Really.
Doug
KRAKII
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/23/2020 06:06 AM CDT
Fun is totally subjective. :)
A lot of people like mathing things out, doing the min/max. That's fun for them.
Other people like just doing oddball crap. Like the Warrior who advanced--ONLY--by invoking scrolls and casting those. Talk about a "long row to hoe."
A lot of people like mathing things out, doing the min/max. That's fun for them.
Other people like just doing oddball crap. Like the Warrior who advanced--ONLY--by invoking scrolls and casting those. Talk about a "long row to hoe."
AVAIA
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/23/2020 07:03 AM CDT
>The primary downside, is I feel like it'll take some of the fun away from the character. I will probably hit 20 in about 2 or 3 more days with my sorcerer, so I'm still listening to your opinions. I'm leaning a bit towards keeping it, but every time I really think about it I feel like those points are just better off in other things.
If that is truly the way you feel, then don't do it. Not because the cool kids tell you you can't, but because you don't want to. The only time that I have ever known Bolting to be inarguably mechanically superior is during invasions.
Avaia, player of
If that is truly the way you feel, then don't do it. Not because the cool kids tell you you can't, but because you don't want to. The only time that I have ever known Bolting to be inarguably mechanically superior is during invasions.
Avaia, player of
OM1E5GA
Re: To bolt or not to bolt?
08/23/2020 09:32 AM CDT
<Obviously, if I don't put 20 ranks into necromancy lore, and don't train spell aiming, I can triple train spells far more often.>
Personally, I'd train in Necromancy regardless or whether you decide to bolt or not. It benefits enough spells that 1x is worth it. SA is also beneficial for non-bolting sorcerers (which I already detailed in a previous post), so while you do trade off CS to get it you also gain utility.
<The primary downside, is I feel like it'll take some of the fun away from the character.>
Then by all means keep SA and Necro lore. If you're not having fun with your sorcerer there's no point in having it and those are skills that even sorcerers that NEVER bolt commonly have. I had 2x in SA myself until around level 85, when I got rid of it cause I hadn't used any of the spells it benefits in 15+ levels and wanted to spend the TPs somewhere they'd benefit things I WAS using.
The sacrifice will be if you decide to also train Summoning for 111/118, since that's a skill most sorcerers won't train in until near cap or post cap.
<I'm leaning a bit towards keeping it, but every time I really think about it I feel like those points are just better off in other things.>
Keep in mind that even if you hurt a bit now, as you gain levels and your stats go up you'll have more TPs to spread around and the pain will ease up. In your 20's it's more about using spells strategically then getting huge endrolls anyway. As I hinted at above, there's a difference between having bolting as an option and being a dedicated bolter. You seem to be leaning towards the former, which doesn't require training in anything that would be unusual for your level.
Just cause your training isn't "optimal" according to the min/maxers doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. There are plenty of people that would tell me that I'm screwing myself with my own training, but it's tailored to what I want to do and enjoy doing:
(at level 89), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 190 90
Arcane Symbols.....................| 190 90
Magic Item Use.....................| 190 90
Harness Power......................| 193 93
Elemental Mana Control.............| 190 90
Spirit Mana Control................| 190 90
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 70 15
Elemental Lore - Water.............| 58 12
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 120 30
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 96 22
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 189 89
Perception.........................| 190 90
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 69
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 47
Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 110
Training Points: 40 Phy 0 Mnt (2920 Phy converted to Mnt)
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Personally, I'd train in Necromancy regardless or whether you decide to bolt or not. It benefits enough spells that 1x is worth it. SA is also beneficial for non-bolting sorcerers (which I already detailed in a previous post), so while you do trade off CS to get it you also gain utility.
<The primary downside, is I feel like it'll take some of the fun away from the character.>
Then by all means keep SA and Necro lore. If you're not having fun with your sorcerer there's no point in having it and those are skills that even sorcerers that NEVER bolt commonly have. I had 2x in SA myself until around level 85, when I got rid of it cause I hadn't used any of the spells it benefits in 15+ levels and wanted to spend the TPs somewhere they'd benefit things I WAS using.
The sacrifice will be if you decide to also train Summoning for 111/118, since that's a skill most sorcerers won't train in until near cap or post cap.
<I'm leaning a bit towards keeping it, but every time I really think about it I feel like those points are just better off in other things.>
Keep in mind that even if you hurt a bit now, as you gain levels and your stats go up you'll have more TPs to spread around and the pain will ease up. In your 20's it's more about using spells strategically then getting huge endrolls anyway. As I hinted at above, there's a difference between having bolting as an option and being a dedicated bolter. You seem to be leaning towards the former, which doesn't require training in anything that would be unusual for your level.
Just cause your training isn't "optimal" according to the min/maxers doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. There are plenty of people that would tell me that I'm screwing myself with my own training, but it's tailored to what I want to do and enjoy doing:
(at level 89), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 190 90
Arcane Symbols.....................| 190 90
Magic Item Use.....................| 190 90
Harness Power......................| 193 93
Elemental Mana Control.............| 190 90
Spirit Mana Control................| 190 90
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 70 15
Elemental Lore - Water.............| 58 12
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 120 30
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 96 22
Sorcerous Lore - Necromancy........| 189 89
Perception.........................| 190 90
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 140 40
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 69
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 47
Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 110
Training Points: 40 Phy 0 Mnt (2920 Phy converted to Mnt)
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
