I'm not a big fan of the proposed rogue services, for the same reason I'm not a fan of the monk service. These things add value to the receiving character but don't add an element that can be exchanged on the secondary market. That they diminish over time is at odds with the traditional gear services. Though situationally useful, I would call them inferior to services offered by pures. And even compared with grit, which I still think could be replaced with something better.
Rogues have more depth than most of the professions in the game - skills are the heart of the profession. If the general sentiment is there are too many services adding to combat gear, then perhaps some of the professions can apply their services to non-combat gear.
Lightening and deepening were good examples, once upon a time. Adding enhancive ranks or phantom skill ranks to cloak-worn items. Hiding wouldn't be useful for most, but reduction of ambush pushdown/weighting might be. Things related to concealment, or passive/reactive abilities that become part of the item so they can be improved and sold to others. Things that don't run out. Maybe they have different powers when used by a rogue.
And, to address a key point, I think keeping the services in the combat gear is not a bad thing. If every profession offers weapon or armor-based services AND has the capability to remove those services, then players will start making more strategic choices on how to improve their gear.
I understand staff are not reading the old forums for feedback, so I guess this is mostly for posterity.
And I don't have the link to share - my apologies. Can someone reply back with the link to the working doc? If not I will reply back later.
KANDOR
LORD-STIGS
Re: Rogue Services
07/02/2022 01:08 PM CDT
I think it is good that this proposal is on the officials somewhere. I was glancing at the discord thread for it, but I try to keep off discord generally because it is such a time and attention drain, and kind of exhausting.
Here is the proposal link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIngI414TSDAFiFLU1GzGzB7XBfrZCR5pHiH7cfbAlw/edit#heading=h.g841kp9nuscb
Overall, I really like the creative concept behind the service. I think a lot of thought has been put into the proposal, and I appreciate that. I always felt rogues through the guild were being taught the 'tricks of the trade' and it worked well despite the grind. There was a degree of camaraderie that could be developed, and a feeling of underhandedness that I felt appropriate for the profession. I think the proposal continues that. In contrast to Kandor I think the 'refresh' aspect is good, and will lead to long-term sustainability of the service, whereas ensorcell is mostly a set-it-and-forget-it where nearly everything will eventually get ensorcelled at some point and the service will be worth less and less. With tattoos and rogue teaching, I think the charging aspect overcomes this.
What I do not like about the non-professional-service parts of the proposal is the functional removal of STEAL via the proposed FLAG. I think this has been discussed at length on discord, but I would like to dissent and say that there should be no FLAG opt-out for being a mark. The game has generally been losing all elements of risk for some time now: no more lost to the demonic, no more items stay after rotting, no drop of held items on death, RECOVER verb on DISARM, salve, herbs, FIXPROF, FIXRACE, a number of POLICY changes that I won't go into here. I think it can be argued that some of these changes were net beneficial, but my point is not that these were good-or-bad changes, but that any and all risk or stakes are being incrementally removed. Without stakes, the game risks becoming just a never ending series of 'super buff rats' where there are no real consequences for actions...and I think the FLAG to opt-out of the material consequences of STEAL goes in that direction. As with all of the earlier de-risking of the game mentioned above, this also decreases the potential for relationships (adversarial or otherwise) from developing in the game, and we all turn into 'super buff rats' ourselves.
On the one hand, we're told that STEAL is not used much, but on the other that some feel targeted. This seems like a contradiction. For those who do indeed feel targeted or griefed, there are options that exist in-game and OOC like ACCUSE, WARN INTERACT, REPORT, POLICY REPORT, and GM No Contact Orders. There are also many in-game methods to mitigate STEAL, from expensive items to closing containers.
CvC is generally frowned upon in gemstone, but there should be ways to develop social relationships (with other players) that are adversarial in nature as part of a role-playing game. STEAL is one of the few remaining options that fulfills that.
Here is the proposal link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIngI414TSDAFiFLU1GzGzB7XBfrZCR5pHiH7cfbAlw/edit#heading=h.g841kp9nuscb
Overall, I really like the creative concept behind the service. I think a lot of thought has been put into the proposal, and I appreciate that. I always felt rogues through the guild were being taught the 'tricks of the trade' and it worked well despite the grind. There was a degree of camaraderie that could be developed, and a feeling of underhandedness that I felt appropriate for the profession. I think the proposal continues that. In contrast to Kandor I think the 'refresh' aspect is good, and will lead to long-term sustainability of the service, whereas ensorcell is mostly a set-it-and-forget-it where nearly everything will eventually get ensorcelled at some point and the service will be worth less and less. With tattoos and rogue teaching, I think the charging aspect overcomes this.
What I do not like about the non-professional-service parts of the proposal is the functional removal of STEAL via the proposed FLAG. I think this has been discussed at length on discord, but I would like to dissent and say that there should be no FLAG opt-out for being a mark. The game has generally been losing all elements of risk for some time now: no more lost to the demonic, no more items stay after rotting, no drop of held items on death, RECOVER verb on DISARM, salve, herbs, FIXPROF, FIXRACE, a number of POLICY changes that I won't go into here. I think it can be argued that some of these changes were net beneficial, but my point is not that these were good-or-bad changes, but that any and all risk or stakes are being incrementally removed. Without stakes, the game risks becoming just a never ending series of 'super buff rats' where there are no real consequences for actions...and I think the FLAG to opt-out of the material consequences of STEAL goes in that direction. As with all of the earlier de-risking of the game mentioned above, this also decreases the potential for relationships (adversarial or otherwise) from developing in the game, and we all turn into 'super buff rats' ourselves.
On the one hand, we're told that STEAL is not used much, but on the other that some feel targeted. This seems like a contradiction. For those who do indeed feel targeted or griefed, there are options that exist in-game and OOC like ACCUSE, WARN INTERACT, REPORT, POLICY REPORT, and GM No Contact Orders. There are also many in-game methods to mitigate STEAL, from expensive items to closing containers.
CvC is generally frowned upon in gemstone, but there should be ways to develop social relationships (with other players) that are adversarial in nature as part of a role-playing game. STEAL is one of the few remaining options that fulfills that.
KANDOR
Re: Rogue Services
07/02/2022 11:04 PM CDT
Having a NOSTEAL flag doesn't feel right. It has been said before, but the possibility of theft adds a certain mystique to the game environment. Indirectly, it encourages players to play smart, to keep things in the right containers, to keep their containers closed, and to keep their silver in the bank. It's part of the Sprite Quest. If it's not part of the Raging Thrak's tirade, it should be.
Getting your stuff stolen in town is almost 100% avoidable today, unless you're dead, and thievery in the field is less common than it was in more crowded times. Sancted rooms do too much to discourage small pulls, such as silvers and regular gems.
I think the list of items that can be stolen could be reviewed. There is no point to stealing herbs, and there could be some kind of reasonable cut-off for other sorts of things.
Beyond this, it is my experience that the possibility of stealing encourages maturity and helps to discourage attitudes between players that could be otherwise more prevalent. It makes certain kinds of items and abilities that can prevent theft more valuable. These things would have little or no value if there was a flag. Unless there is a flag to prevent others from attacking you, then there should not be a flag to prevent others from stealing from you.
In summary, players wanting to play a thief and accept the stigma should be allowed to do so. I know it's not supposed to be CvC anymore, but we're going to have a lot of new problems if there's a flag we can set.
Some scattered but related thoughts:
Rogues have too much profession bonus to both hiding and stealing. The training should speak for itself. If anything there should be a hidden modifier based on how many times the character has been stolen from in the last X days, or how many times the thief has stolen from others. Maybe there already is one.
Chance of failure should correspond roughly to the value of the item being lifted, as it will be missed sooner. Coupled with this, you should be able to specify the type of item you are looking for, and to decline to steal anything that doesn't feel like what you're after -- assuming it's not a trap. If you get a trap, you get what you get.
There should be shops that sell traps, for those that can't make them.
There could be a lot more programming involved in how a thief picks a mark, and studies him, before stealing. Develop it into a micro-quest that doesn't involve another character and offers experience. Not including combat, but with potential jail time. Use the town NPCs. Make it a bounty available to people with a certain amount of training, as with skinning.
I also agree with the sentiment that the environment itself should be doing some of the stealing. The devil's in the details, but it feels like there are some great opportunities here.
Getting your stuff stolen in town is almost 100% avoidable today, unless you're dead, and thievery in the field is less common than it was in more crowded times. Sancted rooms do too much to discourage small pulls, such as silvers and regular gems.
I think the list of items that can be stolen could be reviewed. There is no point to stealing herbs, and there could be some kind of reasonable cut-off for other sorts of things.
Beyond this, it is my experience that the possibility of stealing encourages maturity and helps to discourage attitudes between players that could be otherwise more prevalent. It makes certain kinds of items and abilities that can prevent theft more valuable. These things would have little or no value if there was a flag. Unless there is a flag to prevent others from attacking you, then there should not be a flag to prevent others from stealing from you.
In summary, players wanting to play a thief and accept the stigma should be allowed to do so. I know it's not supposed to be CvC anymore, but we're going to have a lot of new problems if there's a flag we can set.
Some scattered but related thoughts:
Rogues have too much profession bonus to both hiding and stealing. The training should speak for itself. If anything there should be a hidden modifier based on how many times the character has been stolen from in the last X days, or how many times the thief has stolen from others. Maybe there already is one.
Chance of failure should correspond roughly to the value of the item being lifted, as it will be missed sooner. Coupled with this, you should be able to specify the type of item you are looking for, and to decline to steal anything that doesn't feel like what you're after -- assuming it's not a trap. If you get a trap, you get what you get.
There should be shops that sell traps, for those that can't make them.
There could be a lot more programming involved in how a thief picks a mark, and studies him, before stealing. Develop it into a micro-quest that doesn't involve another character and offers experience. Not including combat, but with potential jail time. Use the town NPCs. Make it a bounty available to people with a certain amount of training, as with skinning.
I also agree with the sentiment that the environment itself should be doing some of the stealing. The devil's in the details, but it feels like there are some great opportunities here.
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Rogue Services
07/03/2022 07:04 AM CDT
I don't necessarily disagree with anything Kandor posted but would also add that anything done in favor of encouraging more CvC stealing should also include a review of the justice system. In its current state, it doesn't do anything to discourage rampant thieving to the degree that it should.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
-- Robert
From the pitch of the vibration you determine that the purpose of the shield is as a shield.
LORD-STIGS
Re: Rogue Services
07/04/2022 05:13 PM CDT
If there is going to be a complete overhaul of STEAL and an opt-out for marks, I think making STEAL a rogue-only verb similar to ranger TRACK is best. It can use adjacent skills/stats similar to how TRACK works. CMAN MUG is already rogue-only, and really what other professions benefit and use the skill that occupies the PICKPOCKET slot in the character manager? Bards, rangers, a warrior maybe? We've already been told its hardly used, so why have it occupy that spot in the character manager when it could be freed up for a more general skill applicable to all professions, or maybe have integration in ascension. I admit I have no idea how involved changing the character manager is, or whether it is even possible at that level, but TPs were recently re-calculated along with other manager changes, so why not this one too?
ACMEGAMER
Re: Rogue Services
07/27/2022 10:23 AM CDT
Not a lot to contribute to this thread, but I had to comment on something Stigs said.
This so very well nailed how I feel about Discord. I have this completionist mentality to forums and things like Discord. I find Discord an unproductive time and attention drain and very exhausting actually. It causes me a lot of strife and makes me not want to play GS because I feel like I have to read go and read it. As it is currently I have Mechanics ignored because that channel is so frustrating, so I feel I'm missing out on important information.
Anyhow I just had to reply because you summed up so well that I hadn't really felt like I personally had been able to articulate. Thanks. :)
| "I try to keep off discord generally because it is such a time and attention drain, and kind of exhausting." LORD-STIGS |
This so very well nailed how I feel about Discord. I have this completionist mentality to forums and things like Discord. I find Discord an unproductive time and attention drain and very exhausting actually. It causes me a lot of strife and makes me not want to play GS because I feel like I have to read go and read it. As it is currently I have Mechanics ignored because that channel is so frustrating, so I feel I'm missing out on important information.
Anyhow I just had to reply because you summed up so well that I hadn't really felt like I personally had been able to articulate. Thanks. :)
