Now that we've gotten through our biannual cannot think just grinding coffee fueled frenzy, any word on how the remaining paladin updates are updating?
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
MENOS
GS4-VIDUUS
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/03/2021 04:09 PM CST
So glad you asked.
Nothing's currently changed with the intent of Divine Inspiration, Smite, and Strike over the original proposal. It's designed to be a system unique to paladins that provides them with a richer combat experience. Hence the document hasn't changed.
DI was never isolated to spells and was always intended to impact many facets of combat. The whole concept is part of why PSM has blown up. Naijin took the idea of making combat more immersive and ran with it. Giving combat a more interactive and feedback intensive feel is part of why PSM has blown up in scale from a few maneuver reviews to changing the face of physical combat.
What has changed is the infrastructure that DI will have to work on top of and integrate with. Previously it was attack, cast, or SMR attack. Now it's potentially assessing PSM status effects and outcomes and playing off of them as well as spells and normal attacks. I could have slapped DI together and tossed it out the door. It would have probably been one dimensional and would have probably required rewriting after PSM was released.
As I said when I started the paladin review. Spells are just one part of the puzzle when it comes to paladins. They're heavily reliant on physical skills and those have to be factored in when considering their entire kit. It would be pretty silly to release divine strike as a class defining skill only to find it is pretty underwhelming when compared to something like shield strike that only costs a few CMPs.
There are a lot of conversations occurring at the moment that either directly or indirectly significantly impact paladins which include but are not limited to PSM and blessing changes. If you’re not participating in those conversations, then you should be.
Design and test is where I spend the majority of my time on GS. Something can sound great on paper and be pretty meh in practice, and a seemingly harmless change can have ripple effects on impact. As you’ve experienced a little with templar’s verdict. The design stage isn’t simple and it’s not short, by the time you guys see proposals they’ve generally spent a few weeks/months in heavy debate, and when some aspect of them gets significantly changed you have to go back to the drawing board and repeat the process.
I intentionally excluded specifics of DI because it's less of a mechanic and more of a design concept. Warriors will master combat via learned techniques. Paladins master combat via some learned techniques and some divine assistance. At the end of the day they should end in roughly the same spot as far as combat goes, but should get there via very different pathing. Having DI present should feel different and be noticeable for paladins.
Having said all that, right now I’m working on some new designs for PSM items (new armor specs mostly), a new service (1620), blessing change discussions, revisions to some released stuff that I’m not currently happy with where it landed (like 1618), and lastly DI/smite/strike. Whether or not any of those will be greenlit is anyone’s guess and I don’t intend on providing details beyond that snippet unless and until it happens as it would just change anyway.
Viduus
Nothing's currently changed with the intent of Divine Inspiration, Smite, and Strike over the original proposal. It's designed to be a system unique to paladins that provides them with a richer combat experience. Hence the document hasn't changed.
DI was never isolated to spells and was always intended to impact many facets of combat. The whole concept is part of why PSM has blown up. Naijin took the idea of making combat more immersive and ran with it. Giving combat a more interactive and feedback intensive feel is part of why PSM has blown up in scale from a few maneuver reviews to changing the face of physical combat.
What has changed is the infrastructure that DI will have to work on top of and integrate with. Previously it was attack, cast, or SMR attack. Now it's potentially assessing PSM status effects and outcomes and playing off of them as well as spells and normal attacks. I could have slapped DI together and tossed it out the door. It would have probably been one dimensional and would have probably required rewriting after PSM was released.
As I said when I started the paladin review. Spells are just one part of the puzzle when it comes to paladins. They're heavily reliant on physical skills and those have to be factored in when considering their entire kit. It would be pretty silly to release divine strike as a class defining skill only to find it is pretty underwhelming when compared to something like shield strike that only costs a few CMPs.
There are a lot of conversations occurring at the moment that either directly or indirectly significantly impact paladins which include but are not limited to PSM and blessing changes. If you’re not participating in those conversations, then you should be.
Design and test is where I spend the majority of my time on GS. Something can sound great on paper and be pretty meh in practice, and a seemingly harmless change can have ripple effects on impact. As you’ve experienced a little with templar’s verdict. The design stage isn’t simple and it’s not short, by the time you guys see proposals they’ve generally spent a few weeks/months in heavy debate, and when some aspect of them gets significantly changed you have to go back to the drawing board and repeat the process.
I intentionally excluded specifics of DI because it's less of a mechanic and more of a design concept. Warriors will master combat via learned techniques. Paladins master combat via some learned techniques and some divine assistance. At the end of the day they should end in roughly the same spot as far as combat goes, but should get there via very different pathing. Having DI present should feel different and be noticeable for paladins.
Having said all that, right now I’m working on some new designs for PSM items (new armor specs mostly), a new service (1620), blessing change discussions, revisions to some released stuff that I’m not currently happy with where it landed (like 1618), and lastly DI/smite/strike. Whether or not any of those will be greenlit is anyone’s guess and I don’t intend on providing details beyond that snippet unless and until it happens as it would just change anyway.
Viduus
GS4-VIDUUS
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/03/2021 06:00 PM CST
>>Err.. maybe this is the old version? I have no idea.
Old.
Viduus
CHAPSICKLE2
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/03/2021 10:14 PM CST
Thank you for the update Viduus
I've seen the PSM post and discussion, anyone know if there a thread on the blessing change? Have we seen a document yet?
I've seen the PSM post and discussion, anyone know if there a thread on the blessing change? Have we seen a document yet?
APLOM
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/04/2021 04:29 AM CST
Awesome! Very much appreciate the update.
>The whole concept is part of why PSM has blown up. Naijin took the idea of making combat more immersive and ran with it. <--Viduus
I suspected this might have been the case. The original DI/smite/strike was taking combat for Paladins in a completely new and never seen direction. However, with the PSM3 proposed changes that sort of gave all squares/semis this "reactive" type of combat style I figured this might have required taking a deeper look at DI/Smite/Strike.
>DI was never isolated to spells and was always intended to impact many facets of combat. <--Viduus
Interesting - you pointed this out to me on Discord maybe a month back and I was sort of confused at the time. I was using the term DI to mean using Smite/Strike but you said how it wasn't the same and I wasn't understanding. I mean - The proposal made it sound like while smite/strike were available all the time they would be potentially pale versions of themselves until under DI (and hence you might not use them until under DI). And because it sounded like DI was ONLY impacting Smite/Strike I really didn't understand how they weren't synonymous. And now you're saying DI is intended to impact many facets of combat?
I suppose in my head I was treating DI similar to Ranger's 625 spell effect where if you cast you have a chance to receive a buff to your physical combat and if you attack you have a chance to receive a buff to your magical combat (pretty 1 <or is it 2> dimensional, but a pretty cool one).
And now might not be the right time but I was curious if you would publicly weigh in on the Paladin Shield Throw debate? Or consider putting some similar multi-creature hitting ability (while under DI maybe??) into the PSM3? I believe a lot of Paladins were very excited to have some spectacular shield abilities at our disposal as a profession that is pretty closely linked with shield use.
KHAVOR
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/04/2021 05:51 AM CST
Well... OK then.
Also, I blame Naijin for everything. It's GSIV Naijin, not GSV !
GS4-VIDUUS
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/04/2021 10:23 AM CST
>>The proposal made it sound like while smite/strike were available all the time they would be potentially pale versions of themselves until under DI
The idea of DI is that you're getting feedback from your god on how to capitalize on opportunities that you may not have otherwise seen. Like "You sense that rolton is favoring it's right leg, I bet you could knock it off completely with minimal effort." or "Strike now while your have the advantage!"
Strike and smite are attacks intended to have an ok baseline ability, but an enhanced version when the DI message indicates you should use them.
Those are the concepts, how the implementation plays out is a different story. It can be as simple as 20% of time you get prompts to use enhanced smite/strike, which is not very exciting but easy to implement. Or it can be as complicated as directing you to use specific attacks on specific creatures for the specific conditions that exist at the time of the combat. Like "You reflect the dim morning light at the bandit blinding him, before caving in his skull." It requires being able to build a pretty good picture of the combat capacity of the paladin and his enemies, picking some outcomes, then prompting the player to take a path. The former is easy to implement as it's just rolling the dice. The second is much more difficult to implement and may actually not be feasible, but since this is intended to define the combat experience of the class, and separate it from that of say a warrior, I want to give it my best attempt before defaulting to the dice roll.
>>And now might not be the right time but I was curious if you would publicly weigh in on the Paladin Shield Throw debate? Or consider putting some similar multi-creature hitting ability (while under DI maybe??) into the PSM3?
In general, you won't find me making public comments against a proposal once it's public, it's just not productive or healthy for the discussion to do so. People get derailed in arguing X, Y, or Z agree or disagree with them, rather than formulating reasonable counter arguments. We debate, sometimes heatedly, before proposals go public and usually again after we gauge the reaction to them. If you disagree with something in a proposal, the best thing you can do is explain your point of view and bullet point your reasons for why something doesn't work.
Viduus
The idea of DI is that you're getting feedback from your god on how to capitalize on opportunities that you may not have otherwise seen. Like "You sense that rolton is favoring it's right leg, I bet you could knock it off completely with minimal effort." or "Strike now while your have the advantage!"
Strike and smite are attacks intended to have an ok baseline ability, but an enhanced version when the DI message indicates you should use them.
Those are the concepts, how the implementation plays out is a different story. It can be as simple as 20% of time you get prompts to use enhanced smite/strike, which is not very exciting but easy to implement. Or it can be as complicated as directing you to use specific attacks on specific creatures for the specific conditions that exist at the time of the combat. Like "You reflect the dim morning light at the bandit blinding him, before caving in his skull." It requires being able to build a pretty good picture of the combat capacity of the paladin and his enemies, picking some outcomes, then prompting the player to take a path. The former is easy to implement as it's just rolling the dice. The second is much more difficult to implement and may actually not be feasible, but since this is intended to define the combat experience of the class, and separate it from that of say a warrior, I want to give it my best attempt before defaulting to the dice roll.
>>And now might not be the right time but I was curious if you would publicly weigh in on the Paladin Shield Throw debate? Or consider putting some similar multi-creature hitting ability (while under DI maybe??) into the PSM3?
In general, you won't find me making public comments against a proposal once it's public, it's just not productive or healthy for the discussion to do so. People get derailed in arguing X, Y, or Z agree or disagree with them, rather than formulating reasonable counter arguments. We debate, sometimes heatedly, before proposals go public and usually again after we gauge the reaction to them. If you disagree with something in a proposal, the best thing you can do is explain your point of view and bullet point your reasons for why something doesn't work.
Viduus
APLOM
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/04/2021 02:17 PM CST
> In general, you won't find me making public comments against a proposal once it's public, it's just not productive or healthy for the discussion to do so. <--Viduus
Completely understand. I suspected as much but was hoping to get a sense on the possibility of a similar ability being tossed into the remaining Paladin specific updates! Especially as you were asking for semi-magical/physical combat maneuveres earlier. What is more magical than a large shield thrown through the air to bounce off numerous critters only to return to your hands?
I believe a number of Paladins have made strong points (on Discord during active feedback discussion) towards having shield throw that directly counters what some GMs have said as their reasons to not give it to them but at the end of the day...when the two most vocal GMs on mechanical developments come out and say "we just don't see that as a Paladin ability" and "you have the 1600 spell circles so you don't need more shield abilities (paraphrased)" it is really hard to frame an argument against their opinions.
To me it seems as obvious as can be that Paladins are the second most likely profession to rely heavily on shield use but yet we are 4th (counting monks if the proposal goes through and if they take the shield path) in access to shield maneuvers. Not only do we have a spell that enhances our block % and provides a massive boost to their quickness, we have a spell that forces us to become the target of attacks. Do we need shield throw/shield trample? No of course not. Is the development of the game going towards more ways to let characters effectively use their stamina so they aren't always ambushing heads or mstriking - yes! Shield charge is great, shield strike is good (mostly for the 3 second attack)but at the end of the day you really only need to shield charge 1x per critter. Especially if the chance at instant kills are reduced after the update. Granting us a multi-hitting, stamina costing, ability just seemed to make the most sense - especially since it is proposed to be given to Rogues and Monks - which takes away another of the arguments that Warrior's were somehow loosing their edge on unique shield abilities.
Anyways - again probably the wrong place to make these same tired arguments.
XPAULSENX
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/07/2021 01:08 AM CST
Viduus,
Keep up the good work, all I got to say.
-Khaell
Keep up the good work, all I got to say.
-Khaell
GRUMSKULL
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/07/2021 10:28 AM CST
I have not once, for a second, doubted you would have abandoned the 'meat and potatoes' of our profession, not once.
Some of us here need to realize exactly how grand a vision Viduus is trying for the betterment of the Paladin profession. You guys need to be patient.
Let's put it this way, I bet the vision and path forward Viduus was trailblazing was one of the primary impetus for GM Naijin unleashing PSM3.
Viduus, take all the time you need! I rather have a unique, well thought-out profession a year from now than another mindless RNG iteration tomorrow.
G4CK5
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/09/2021 04:22 PM CST
I can't find the thread anymore where it was asked if we could borrow cman skills or shield skills from another class what would you like to see? I was curious why paladins don't get the shield ability Shield Trample? With the up coming changes will we see that skill? Just makes sense since it works off MOC with that update and most of us are capped in MOC. Seems like it would fit the paladin shield class build. This is more of a question why paladins aren't able to use that shield skill. Shield pin and other makes sense why we don't have those, since we have very similar skills to those. Again just a question
FALAN
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/17/2021 05:30 PM CDT
So.. when will we find out what, exactly, are you going to do with DI? My opinion is it is fine the just the way it is since it is our get jail free card.
With all these changes, I honestly would rather be able to roll back to a cleric since I didn't sign up for this. Sadly, the restore puts me precap and I would rather not lose all those (ie: MY time) of experience. Theoretically, if a convert can happen from Cleric/Warrior to paladin then it should be able to be reversed engineered. I don't see the complexity of just wiping the skills/cms/etc clean and just turning a character back to whatever they were and give their XP back. Yes, it happened just before GS3 became GS4 but that still doesn't mean it can't be done.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
With all these changes, I honestly would rather be able to roll back to a cleric since I didn't sign up for this. Sadly, the restore puts me precap and I would rather not lose all those (ie: MY time) of experience. Theoretically, if a convert can happen from Cleric/Warrior to paladin then it should be able to be reversed engineered. I don't see the complexity of just wiping the skills/cms/etc clean and just turning a character back to whatever they were and give their XP back. Yes, it happened just before GS3 became GS4 but that still doesn't mean it can't be done.
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
GS4-VIDUUS
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/17/2021 06:35 PM CDT
>>So.. when will we find out what, exactly, are you going to do with DI? My opinion is it is fine the just the way it is since it is our get jail free card.
I think you're confused about what DI refers to.
Viduus
I think you're confused about what DI refers to.
Viduus
FALAN
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/18/2021 01:06 AM CDT
Then please enlighten and spell it out if it's not Divine Intervention which is 1635 that gets activated with Beseech....
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
__________________________
- Kobold in Disguise Falvicar, Blade of the Night
You swing a silver-edged black veil iron katana at Sevynne!
* Sevynne drops dead at your feet!
* Sevynne just bit the dust!
MOUNTAINHEART
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/18/2021 01:56 PM CDT
DI here is Divine Inspiration. It's the new thing where your Arkati tells you what to do in a fight to get an advantage. Part of the new system Viduus is designing.
Beseech isn't on the table to be changed, as far as I've heard.
~Player of Fulmen Soulforge, Hammer of Eonak.
Beseech isn't on the table to be changed, as far as I've heard.
~Player of Fulmen Soulforge, Hammer of Eonak.
CHAPSICKLE2
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/22/2021 07:42 AM CDT
While Beseech isn't changing, it'd be nice if PSM standardizing debuffs and statuses let it work on the new ranger spells. Specifically the root from moonbeam.
MOUNTAINHEART
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/22/2021 10:20 AM CDT
The bind on Moonbeam, aye. I asked about that a while ago. I hope it is added to it.
~Player of Fulmen Soulforge, Hammer of Eonak.
~Player of Fulmen Soulforge, Hammer of Eonak.
GRUMSKULL
Re: Any post duskruin-hullabaloo updates?
03/22/2021 10:58 AM CDT
BESEECH being updated with the new incoming PSM3 skills and spells is probably a major housekeeping task. I'm sure VIDUUS will get to it but it probably won't be until most of these changes hit
live.
