Showing a friend around the GemStone IV world. He is still developing his character on looks and actions.
I've always trained in just one type of weapon skill (edged to be exact), so really couldn't answer this... maybe someone who has and has some pro's and con's can enlighten...
He would like to train in both two-handed and polearm. Obviously he doesn't want to use a shield, but he wants some options for weaponry. Yet he doesn't want to be stuck with one kind of skill.
Would love some input to give him on this. He's still playing around but once he's ready to dive in, he's gonna re-roll his character and set everything up to stick.
Thanks! =o)
LEOWYATT
TROUBLE13
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/13/2011 11:46 PM CST
For most people the idea of having a second weapon skill is to give you a different option for attacking. Good examples of this is training brawling for voln-fu, or training up thrown/archery to hit flying targets. Or how some archers pick up either edged or two-handed weapons to kill something like constructs more easily. A person could train two-handed weapons and pole-arms but that is a lot of points to be spending to do basically the same thing, both those weapons fill the same roll, to hit hard and devastating blows.
THROGG
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 12:20 PM CST
Rather a lot depends on the character class; warriors have no problem training in multiple weapon styles, others will find the TP cost excessive. Having said that, there is really no point, IMO, in training in both THW and polearms. Borh work the same way; they give up some protection in order to get greater hitting power. A more versatile training might be THW (or polearm) combined with OHE (or blunt) and shield. This gve you the option of doing lesser damage per hit, but being better protected.
THROGG
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 12:39 PM CST
Oh, and he may also want to consider archery.
LEOWYATT
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 05:38 PM CST
He likes the archery option. Talking to him, he likes both the claidhmore and spear weapons. That's why he wanted to train in both two-handed and polearm.
THROGG
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 06:29 PM CST
>>He likes the archery option. Talking to him, he likes both the claidhmore and spear weapons. That's why he wanted to train in both two-handed and polearm.<<
OK, if it's just the claidh he is interested in, then tell him to go polearms and archery; it's not worth training in THW just to use a claidh. Normal claidhs cannot hit creatures that need magical weapons to be injured, nor can they be blessed to fight undead. And magical metal claidhs cost an arm and a leg. The lance hits like a ton of bricks, and can be enchanted by player characters (my paladin has a nice 7x lance, for example). The spear doesn't hit nearly as hard, but has flexibility; a spear can be wielded one-handed, allowing shield use for better DS, or two handed, producing more damage.
Note that archery accuracy is affected by perception, so he will probably want to go 2x in that skill if he goes that route. And tell him to take up fletching.
Also, you still haven't mentioned what profession your friend follows, or what race he is. These factors might change the advice rendered a bit.
WOLFES2
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 07:13 PM CST
>>That's why he wanted to train in both two-handed and polearm.
I would think that even a warrior might struggle coming up with the training points to learn the two most expensive weapon styles.
~Galenok
I would think that even a warrior might struggle coming up with the training points to learn the two most expensive weapon styles.
~Galenok
LEOWYATT
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 07:18 PM CST
A 'typical' human warrior. He's currently checking out towns too to see which one he likes most. I'm in Icemule, but he wants to RP out a warmer climate, so I recommended the Landing if he wants socialization.
He said no to the lance. Not his style of weapon, lol.
He said no to the lance. Not his style of weapon, lol.
SUTTOND
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 07:31 PM CST
I'd say if the player sees his character using those weapon types, tell him to train in those weapon types. One of the really great things about GemStone is being able to make your character exactly the way you imagine them to be, so when I hear questions like that I just say "go for it".
To pull it off you'd almost have to be playing a warrior, but its perfectly manageable. I just plugged my level 40 warrior's numbers in, and he has no trouble going 2x THW and poles with 2x CM and PF, 2.5x armour and about 1.9x Dodge. Not a lot of room for tertiary skills, but that's a perfectly viable build right there. He'd get into full plate a bit later than some warriors, and wouldn't be able to triple PF until much later, but those aren't deal-breakers by any means.
Bear in mind though that spears are one-handed poles, and a spear user typically wants to have shield training as well. That would really stretch the TPs to the limit, and a warrior doesn't want to cut back too far on things like CM, armour or PF to make up the difference.
Dave, Brandain's Bard
To pull it off you'd almost have to be playing a warrior, but its perfectly manageable. I just plugged my level 40 warrior's numbers in, and he has no trouble going 2x THW and poles with 2x CM and PF, 2.5x armour and about 1.9x Dodge. Not a lot of room for tertiary skills, but that's a perfectly viable build right there. He'd get into full plate a bit later than some warriors, and wouldn't be able to triple PF until much later, but those aren't deal-breakers by any means.
Bear in mind though that spears are one-handed poles, and a spear user typically wants to have shield training as well. That would really stretch the TPs to the limit, and a warrior doesn't want to cut back too far on things like CM, armour or PF to make up the difference.
Dave, Brandain's Bard
LEOWYATT
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 07:41 PM CST
Exactly. I just wanted to help him out a bit with a little input from others, tho. He's soaking in every comments given.
Right now he might be thinking of ditching the spear since it is a one-hander and going with two-handed and archery.
I personally think it's the movies and tv shows he's looking at. But he needs to try what he likes and do trial and error. He'll learn what he can and cannot accomplish.
Right now he might be thinking of ditching the spear since it is a one-hander and going with two-handed and archery.
I personally think it's the movies and tv shows he's looking at. But he needs to try what he likes and do trial and error. He'll learn what he can and cannot accomplish.
SUTTOND
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 08:22 PM CST
If it's an image thing with the one-handed spear, an awl-pike or some of its alternate nouns are essentially a two-handed spear with a bit of a longer blade. There's lots of alternate nouns to explore within weapon groups, so searching around for just the right option can be useful with realizing an image you have in your head.
I don't know if I'd necessarily recommend archery to a brand new player, as there's an extra layer of mechanics to pick up on there and we do have a wee bit of a learning curve in GS. Having an experienced player as a mentor would make all the difference though, so that's not a barrier to trying it out.
Dave, Brandain's Bard
I don't know if I'd necessarily recommend archery to a brand new player, as there's an extra layer of mechanics to pick up on there and we do have a wee bit of a learning curve in GS. Having an experienced player as a mentor would make all the difference though, so that's not a barrier to trying it out.
Dave, Brandain's Bard
WOLFES2
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/14/2011 09:31 PM CST
Spears work both one handed or two. Just make sure to check your GRIP any time you use one to be certain how it's being held.
~Galenok
~Galenok
DOUG
SUTTOND
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/15/2011 12:24 AM CST
Oh, thanks Galenok. I had no idea one-handed polearms were switchable grip!
Geez, you can still learn something new about this game after a decade and a half...
Dave, Brandain's Bard
Geez, you can still learn something new about this game after a decade and a half...
Dave, Brandain's Bard
THROGG
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/15/2011 12:19 PM CST
>>I had no idea one-handed polearms were switchable grip!<<
Doh! I mentioned that in my post first!
AFALLACE
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
11/17/2011 12:02 PM CST
My redonkulously capped character is trained in every weapon type except Poles (which he was trained in for a while, then dropped), so let me toss down some of the things I found. IMO if you're going to train in two weapon skills the most important thing is synergy.
Lets start off by saying that brawling is always a given if a character is going the Voln route. We also have no idea what 'unarmed combat' is going to bring to the table.
Certain combinations work wonderfully together and open up possibilities. There aren't many reasons to train in THW and another weapon type unless you're really into katanas and want to be able to use them THW (katanas are 'meh' THWs), as well as OHE (katanas are incredible OHEs, but require training in both styles)... but you gotta really love that noun. There are more than enough excellent options in the THW category to fill pretty much every need.
As was mentioned before, THW and Poles work almost the same. They're big, slow, and deal lots of damage. Poles have a little more built-in versatility, however. If I was going to pick up a second weapon type with Poles I would go the Throwing route. Many of them are hurlable and/or grippable, which even allows the possibility of tossing shields into the mix for some extra, optional defense, or throwing two spears at once. Lots of good synergy there. Grab some shield bash and go around yelling "THIS IS SPARTA!"
Lets focus on Thrown for a second. Especially for rogues, I like to recommend getting even 1x in thrown weapons... and I'll tell you why. LM trap component vials. They only need a 101, and go up against ranged DS. It is an excellent way to tie up a target in a swarm situation while you deal with another threat more directly. Only issue with this is that the game makes you throw both weapons simultaneously (unless the right handed weapon kills the target), so if you're TWC you need to empty both hands first, grab the vial, then throw it. Shield users don't have this issue... the game is smart enough to not throw the shield, thankfully. Hopefully this gets addressed in the Thrown review (hahaha), and us TWCers can elect which weapon we want to throw. Lets also hope they address the "you just threw all of your defense away" thing as well... which brings us to...
Thrown and Brawling! So you keep some DS for those intense moments after you just threw your weapon.
The hands down most broken combo is Archery and Brawling with Fu. And by broken I mean totally awesome. Fire off a few shots and then go John Woo it up. Always got a free hand... and permablessed feet. I got turned onto it a while ago and since then I've been asking myself, "Why doesn't everyone do this?". Even without Fu, I enjoy it as a crossbow user. Since bows are held in the left hand, it always leaves the right hand free. Crossbows fire with real low RTs, so its fun to crack off a shot to mess something up, then whip out a fist-scythe or whatever to finish the job.
OHE and Brawl is fun if you want to use katars. Katars are arguably the best OH weapon for mstriking since they boast real decent DFs, almost exclusive puncture crits, and have real low RTs and recovery times. TWC katars is absolutely brutal with either mstrike or ambush, and from my experiences felt the most 'powerful'. Good times. You won't find a ton of difference between brawlers and lighter OHEs, so outside of the katar argument (and Fu), there isn't much reason to train in both.
I haven't found any reason to train Blunts with another weapon type except for maybe Thrown to swing and hurl warhammers, which is awesome. To my knowledge there are no hybrid Blunts. That said I find Blunts to be superior to OHE in just about every way, except that there are no 'dagger blunts' for ambushers that want to stay as fast as possible. Morning stars are sick, and pretty much all that needs to be said.
Aaaand yeah... that pretty much sums up the things I found through all of my experimentating.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
Lets start off by saying that brawling is always a given if a character is going the Voln route. We also have no idea what 'unarmed combat' is going to bring to the table.
Certain combinations work wonderfully together and open up possibilities. There aren't many reasons to train in THW and another weapon type unless you're really into katanas and want to be able to use them THW (katanas are 'meh' THWs), as well as OHE (katanas are incredible OHEs, but require training in both styles)... but you gotta really love that noun. There are more than enough excellent options in the THW category to fill pretty much every need.
As was mentioned before, THW and Poles work almost the same. They're big, slow, and deal lots of damage. Poles have a little more built-in versatility, however. If I was going to pick up a second weapon type with Poles I would go the Throwing route. Many of them are hurlable and/or grippable, which even allows the possibility of tossing shields into the mix for some extra, optional defense, or throwing two spears at once. Lots of good synergy there. Grab some shield bash and go around yelling "THIS IS SPARTA!"
Lets focus on Thrown for a second. Especially for rogues, I like to recommend getting even 1x in thrown weapons... and I'll tell you why. LM trap component vials. They only need a 101, and go up against ranged DS. It is an excellent way to tie up a target in a swarm situation while you deal with another threat more directly. Only issue with this is that the game makes you throw both weapons simultaneously (unless the right handed weapon kills the target), so if you're TWC you need to empty both hands first, grab the vial, then throw it. Shield users don't have this issue... the game is smart enough to not throw the shield, thankfully. Hopefully this gets addressed in the Thrown review (hahaha), and us TWCers can elect which weapon we want to throw. Lets also hope they address the "you just threw all of your defense away" thing as well... which brings us to...
Thrown and Brawling! So you keep some DS for those intense moments after you just threw your weapon.
The hands down most broken combo is Archery and Brawling with Fu. And by broken I mean totally awesome. Fire off a few shots and then go John Woo it up. Always got a free hand... and permablessed feet. I got turned onto it a while ago and since then I've been asking myself, "Why doesn't everyone do this?". Even without Fu, I enjoy it as a crossbow user. Since bows are held in the left hand, it always leaves the right hand free. Crossbows fire with real low RTs, so its fun to crack off a shot to mess something up, then whip out a fist-scythe or whatever to finish the job.
OHE and Brawl is fun if you want to use katars. Katars are arguably the best OH weapon for mstriking since they boast real decent DFs, almost exclusive puncture crits, and have real low RTs and recovery times. TWC katars is absolutely brutal with either mstrike or ambush, and from my experiences felt the most 'powerful'. Good times. You won't find a ton of difference between brawlers and lighter OHEs, so outside of the katar argument (and Fu), there isn't much reason to train in both.
I haven't found any reason to train Blunts with another weapon type except for maybe Thrown to swing and hurl warhammers, which is awesome. To my knowledge there are no hybrid Blunts. That said I find Blunts to be superior to OHE in just about every way, except that there are no 'dagger blunts' for ambushers that want to stay as fast as possible. Morning stars are sick, and pretty much all that needs to be said.
Aaaand yeah... that pretty much sums up the things I found through all of my experimentating.
.jaired
>LIKE A BOSS
Please rephrase that command.
SASSOR
Re: Training in 2 weapon skills!
12/27/2011 11:23 AM CST
As a warrior he has the best profession for learning 2 different weapon styles.
As for me and my opinion... I tend to go two weapon combat with my warriors. One of them I have trained in One handed blunts and One handed edge, I switch up his weapons a lot but I have some nice ones and can never stick with one matched pair for long. I like going gauche and a mace, or morning star, or 2 maces, or a hand axe and a gauche mostly. I like the gauche in the off hand for the extra DS, as gauches are defenders. And Multi-strikes can be a lot of fun with any combo.
But like Dave said GS is all about what you like and with the versatility of the training manager you can pull just about anything off, some things are harder to do then others obviously. So tell him to go with whatever he likes and there is normally always a happy median one can find.
Some good folk with good knowledge have chimed in, so now tell your buddy to do what he wants but to know that this or that choice will result in this or that in his viability of hunting (and why this or that happened, it's always good to know the "why").
Senglent and his wayward kin.
As for me and my opinion... I tend to go two weapon combat with my warriors. One of them I have trained in One handed blunts and One handed edge, I switch up his weapons a lot but I have some nice ones and can never stick with one matched pair for long. I like going gauche and a mace, or morning star, or 2 maces, or a hand axe and a gauche mostly. I like the gauche in the off hand for the extra DS, as gauches are defenders. And Multi-strikes can be a lot of fun with any combo.
But like Dave said GS is all about what you like and with the versatility of the training manager you can pull just about anything off, some things are harder to do then others obviously. So tell him to go with whatever he likes and there is normally always a happy median one can find.
Some good folk with good knowledge have chimed in, so now tell your buddy to do what he wants but to know that this or that choice will result in this or that in his viability of hunting (and why this or that happened, it's always good to know the "why").
Senglent and his wayward kin.
