Alright guys, let's see what you've come up with. I know you're still toying with things, but I'd like to see what you guys have learned about what is working well for you and why. Here are the things I'm currently trained in with 303 ranks of shield use:
Kerl, your Shield Specialization training is as follows:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Tower Shield Focus tfocus 5
Shield Bash bash 5
Shield Charge charge 2
Shield Riposte riposte 3
Deflection Training dtraining 3
Deflection Mastery dmastery 5
Guard Mastery gmastery 3
Protective Wall pwall 2
Shield Trample trample 5
Shield Trample Mastery tmastery 3
Available Shield Training Points: 1
Notes about them:
Focus skills: an easy extra +5 CvA. This is a no brainer, and is the basic starting foundation for most of the shield skills.
Shield Bash: necessary prereq for some of the other skills. I am almost done migrating this from CMAN, though I may migrate it back and stop with fewer than the full compliment of 5 ranks. I'm not sure how precisely this plays into riposte for example.
Shield Charge: A prereq for Trample, and the only reason I trained in it.
Shield Riposte: I haven't played with this yet. I just loaded it up after some discussion with Roblar. It could be worthwhile.
Deflection Training: I haven't seen the real value in this yet. As a tower shield user, I don't really get hit much with projectiles, but the idea of deflecting arrows back at bandits sounds pretty entertaining. Mostly I picked it up because of the benefits of Deflection Mastery.
Deflection Mastery: Combined with the cost of the D-Train above (hoot hoot! all aboard!), this is an expensive skill, but what's not to like about +2 per rank against all CMLs and a bonus vs Creature Maneuvers? More info about that bonus would be nice, but I'm always up for a bonus to fight against the most likely thing to kill me these days.
Guard Mastery: This one is huge if you hunt with a partner. Basically, with 3 ranks of Guard Mastery, you have no penalty to your own blocks, and your hunting partner gets the same block percent. This is a big increase from typical guard.
Pwall: I love this one. The benefits might not be crystal clear, because you never really see them, but cutting in half the DS penalty for being prone, imobilized, webbed etc, for you AND your party for only 10 shield training points? That is a bargain. You must be using a tower shield though, so you tea cup saucer users are out of luck.
Shield trample: Loving this maneuver. 5 second RT, and the rates of success have been very good, though to be fair, I've only used this along with trample mastery. If you have the points, I'm not sure why you would get one and not the other. The basic difference is that with trample, you max out at being able to knock down 2 foes, while with trample mastery you can do more. See more about that below. I don't know what all plays into success rates, and would like to know if shield training and shield charge factor into success.
Trample Mastery: Each rank of trample mastery adds an additional foe that you can knock down with a trample, so with 3 ranks you can knock down 5 foes in one shot. Finally crowd control for warriors. Prior to this, my best bet was a warcry bellow. This is quite simple awesome. When I get in a crowd of 3 or more, I just trample the easiest one to knock down, and then 5 of them end up with a check for success.
Phalanx: Not currently on my list, but Roblar and Jeril and I played with this the first night. It looked like a lot of fun, but Rolbar and I got zero dodges or parries when we were grouped with shields out. We got a ton of blocks, as you might expect.
That's all I've really played with at this point. Post what's working for you please so we can all decide what's right for us before the migration period runs out,
Kerl
ARCHIGEEK
ZENDADA
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/08/2013 07:43 PM CDT
At level 75 with 150 ranks:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Medium Shield Focus mfocus 5
Shield Bash bash 5
Shield Strike strike 5
Shield Strike Mastery strikemastery 1
Available Shield Training Points: 20
Shield Focus: As was said sure I'll take +5 CvA! And it is a prereq to everything else.
Shield Bash: One thing I am happy for is for this to be a shield skill rather than a cman. It is freeing up my cman points for something else. But, throughout this paladin's career hunting undead exclusively I've found bash less helpful than feint. Now in the rift I still feel the same. Even though I am at full levels successful knockdowns are rare on most of the things it will actually work against. At least thats how it seems. I am barely in the rift and can only deal with planes 1 - 3.
Shield Strike: When I find something bash DOES work on reliably then strike is the way to go and often times results in a knockdown and kill attack all in 5 sec. You may wonder why someone might use bash instead of strike every single time. If you have a spirit strike ready for a headshot ambush using shield strike will spend your spirit strike on the follow up attack. You want to hold back, bash, then use the spirit strike on a good head ambush.
Shield Strike Mastery: Almost singled in MOC. I do not see an extra bash at the end of a focused mstike often. This may be because most things are dead in two to three swings anyway. I do not use open mstrike that often so it is hard to tell the frequency of success.
All said through I love it. It is something that has been added to my tactics that were already successful so my paladin is even that much more effective.
I think I'll be adding shield eblock next, and cman combat focus when the cman migration ends, for more magical defensiveness.
Chad, player of a few
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Medium Shield Focus mfocus 5
Shield Bash bash 5
Shield Strike strike 5
Shield Strike Mastery strikemastery 1
Available Shield Training Points: 20
Shield Focus: As was said sure I'll take +5 CvA! And it is a prereq to everything else.
Shield Bash: One thing I am happy for is for this to be a shield skill rather than a cman. It is freeing up my cman points for something else. But, throughout this paladin's career hunting undead exclusively I've found bash less helpful than feint. Now in the rift I still feel the same. Even though I am at full levels successful knockdowns are rare on most of the things it will actually work against. At least thats how it seems. I am barely in the rift and can only deal with planes 1 - 3.
Shield Strike: When I find something bash DOES work on reliably then strike is the way to go and often times results in a knockdown and kill attack all in 5 sec. You may wonder why someone might use bash instead of strike every single time. If you have a spirit strike ready for a headshot ambush using shield strike will spend your spirit strike on the follow up attack. You want to hold back, bash, then use the spirit strike on a good head ambush.
Shield Strike Mastery: Almost singled in MOC. I do not see an extra bash at the end of a focused mstike often. This may be because most things are dead in two to three swings anyway. I do not use open mstrike that often so it is hard to tell the frequency of success.
All said through I love it. It is something that has been added to my tactics that were already successful so my paladin is even that much more effective.
I think I'll be adding shield eblock next, and cman combat focus when the cman migration ends, for more magical defensiveness.
Chad, player of a few
ZENDADA
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/08/2013 07:45 PM CDT
Oops, sorry, warrior folder. But hopefully still helpful to the topic at hand.
Chad, player of a few
Chad, player of a few
RATHBONER
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/09/2013 06:00 AM CDT
Pretty much the same thoughts as Kerl. I don't have any testing to back it up, and unless the rumblings in Mist Harbor result in a story line with undead gap filling undead, I won't.
The only that I have done significantly different, is to keep shield bash as a CMan to have the points for more shield skills. It just means I have a few more of Kerl's 303 than my 150 would otherwise stretch to, rather than something else in addition.
I have some phalanx, and unless its buggy to the extent that its making total EBP worse for grouped characters, I am keeping it. If it turns the occasional evade or parry into a ton of blocks, thats fine by me.
The only that I have done significantly different, is to keep shield bash as a CMan to have the points for more shield skills. It just means I have a few more of Kerl's 303 than my 150 would otherwise stretch to, rather than something else in addition.
I have some phalanx, and unless its buggy to the extent that its making total EBP worse for grouped characters, I am keeping it. If it turns the occasional evade or parry into a ton of blocks, thats fine by me.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/09/2013 07:40 AM CDT
I think that of all the skills I've looked at, phalanx needs the most study.
I like that we have the option to do some of these as CMANs or shield skills. That gives us a significant amount of added flexibility.
I like that we have the option to do some of these as CMANs or shield skills. That gives us a significant amount of added flexibility.
PENZAM19
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/09/2013 07:50 AM CDT
I'm far from cap, but having played a paladin in OTF before, the first thing that came to mind when I saw eblock was how nice it would be not to crit die from a crystal weapon flare after getting knicked. Has anyone at cap done any testing with this against crystal weapons?
Also, I'll second a thumbs up for shield strike. As a non-hurler, creature DS is actually an issue for me if I don't want to spend 8 minutes knicking the thing to death. Having a shield bash to stun/prone it built into my 5 second swing is pretty darn awesome, at least where I'm at in the mid 20s.
Also, I'll second a thumbs up for shield strike. As a non-hurler, creature DS is actually an issue for me if I don't want to spend 8 minutes knicking the thing to death. Having a shield bash to stun/prone it built into my 5 second swing is pretty darn awesome, at least where I'm at in the mid 20s.
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 09:48 AM CDT
Kerl,
Have you had a chance to play with the Shield Riposte martial stance yet? I'm curious as to your thoughts, specifically with the following. I was giving it a whirl with my warrior, and I can't say that I'm that thrilled with it. The primary reason is that the shield bash that is used is not nearly as effective as an offensive shield bash maneuver. I like the concept, but it doesn't appear to be all that helpful. Here's a snippet against a critter with one rank of riposte and five ranks of shield bash, also this critter is probably ~ 3-5 levels below my warrior:
A massive black boar charges at you!
AS: +315 vs DS: +279 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +47 = +114
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Minor bruise to chest.
Reacting instantly to the blow, you lash out with your eahnor tower shield at the black boar!
[Roll result: 39 (open d100: 16) Penalties: 24]
Your attack connects!
The black boar manages to keep his footing!
>shield bash boar
You lunge forward at a massive black boar with your eahnor tower shield and attempt a shield bash!
[Roll result: 130 (open d100: 53) Penalties: 24]
Half-hearted bash, but a massive black boar manages to partially avoid it.
... 3 points of damage!
Jarring blow to the black boar's back.
Have you had a chance to play with the Shield Riposte martial stance yet? I'm curious as to your thoughts, specifically with the following. I was giving it a whirl with my warrior, and I can't say that I'm that thrilled with it. The primary reason is that the shield bash that is used is not nearly as effective as an offensive shield bash maneuver. I like the concept, but it doesn't appear to be all that helpful. Here's a snippet against a critter with one rank of riposte and five ranks of shield bash, also this critter is probably ~ 3-5 levels below my warrior:
A massive black boar charges at you!
AS: +315 vs DS: +279 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +47 = +114
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Minor bruise to chest.
Reacting instantly to the blow, you lash out with your eahnor tower shield at the black boar!
[Roll result: 39 (open d100: 16) Penalties: 24]
Your attack connects!
The black boar manages to keep his footing!
>shield bash boar
You lunge forward at a massive black boar with your eahnor tower shield and attempt a shield bash!
[Roll result: 130 (open d100: 53) Penalties: 24]
Half-hearted bash, but a massive black boar manages to partially avoid it.
... 3 points of damage!
Jarring blow to the black boar's back.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 10:16 AM CDT
I haven't tried it. Seems to me though, that it pales in comparison to executioner's stance. How well trained are you in shields and how many ranks of riposte?
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 10:33 AM CDT
Only 1 rank in riposte at the moment, it was my understanding that each rank only added to the base percentage chance of it flaring, but that may be wrong. My shield use is at 2x (160 ranks).
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 10:35 AM CDT
Also, I'm not sure what's causing the penalties associated with the flare. In the above example, there was a -24 penalty which I assumed was attributed to a chest minor. However, I had it flare on a later hunt with no minors and the penalty was -23. I don't think there was any encumberance on the character (there wasn't any additional RT, so if there was it wasn't much). It's looking like this martial stance is definitely lackluster, and it's a shame because I thought it had some nice potential.
WBURKE1
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 10:48 AM CDT
>>Also, I'm not sure what's causing the penalties associated with the flare.
Many unbalancing maneuvers give a large penalty (-20 or so) to using them on quadrupeds, which includes boars. You probably won't get that large a penalty on a biped. That is a pretty huge dip in effectiveness between bash and riposte, though. Have you tried training a second rank to see if that increases your bonus at all?
Many unbalancing maneuvers give a large penalty (-20 or so) to using them on quadrupeds, which includes boars. You probably won't get that large a penalty on a biped. That is a pretty huge dip in effectiveness between bash and riposte, though. Have you tried training a second rank to see if that increases your bonus at all?
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 10:49 AM CDT
I hadn't thought about the quadriped aspect... I'll find a biped and try it out. I have some saved up TP's I'll dump into shield use and try the next rank to see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the advice.
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 10:58 AM CDT
Turns out, I was wrong about the number of ranks I had previously... The earlier snippet was with 2 ranks of riposte, not one. I got the third rank and tried it on a bi-ped. Also, I think I was at the first rank of encumberance. Anyways, here it is:
A black forest ogre swings a rust-covered dhara at you!
AS: +324 vs DS: +285 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +73 = +130
... and hits for 2 points of damage!
A feeble blow to your left arm!
Reacting instantly to the blow, you lash out with your eahnor tower shield at the black forest ogre!
[Roll result: 105 (open d100: 71) Penalties: 13]
Your attack connects!
A black forest ogre is knocked off-balance!
>shield bash ogre
You lunge forward at a black forest ogre with your eahnor tower shield and attempt a shield bash!
[Roll result: 160 (open d100: 72) Penalties: 13]
Skilled bash and a black forest ogre flips end over end and lands on his head!
... 5 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the black forest ogre's chest!
The black forest ogre is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Your load is a bit heavy, but you feel confident that the weight is not affecting your actions very much.
A black forest ogre swings a rust-covered dhara at you!
AS: +324 vs DS: +285 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +73 = +130
... and hits for 2 points of damage!
A feeble blow to your left arm!
Reacting instantly to the blow, you lash out with your eahnor tower shield at the black forest ogre!
[Roll result: 105 (open d100: 71) Penalties: 13]
Your attack connects!
A black forest ogre is knocked off-balance!
>shield bash ogre
You lunge forward at a black forest ogre with your eahnor tower shield and attempt a shield bash!
[Roll result: 160 (open d100: 72) Penalties: 13]
Skilled bash and a black forest ogre flips end over end and lands on his head!
... 5 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the black forest ogre's chest!
The black forest ogre is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Your load is a bit heavy, but you feel confident that the weight is not affecting your actions very much.
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 11:05 AM CDT
So, comparing Rank 3 of Riposte with Rank 2 there is no increase in the ability of the shield bash... The first had a roll of 16, result of 39 with a 24 penalty; the second had a roll of 71, result of 105 with a 13 penalty which all comes out the same. I also failed to note that this warrior was three levels above the ogre (due to receiving 35 prestige points for killing it). It's my opinion that the riposte martial stance just isn't worth it.
ARCHIGEEK
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 11:41 AM CDT
I'm surprised you have to pay the full 5 seconds of RT.
Kerl
Kerl
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 11:59 AM CDT
According to the description Riposte just increases RT, not damage from an ensuing Bash. Have you tried measuring the creature's RT increase?
Mark
| Mechanics: This is a Martial Stance. When you are struck by a melee attack while in a forward or greater stance, you have a chance to respond with a free reactive shield bash. This bash deals no damage, but instead knocks your opponent off-balance and into greater roundtime (RT). The chance to react is 50%/75%/100% at Ranks 1/2/3. Larger shields apply a penalty to the reaction chance (-5% per shield size above small), but apply more RT upon a successful bash. Shield Ripostes are limited to one every (6 - Rank) seconds. |
Mark
LORDSOPH
Re: Shield skills: post your build before migration ends!
04/11/2013 12:15 PM CDT
Kerl, there is no additional RT to the warrior when the riposte activates... I followed the riposte with a shield bash to show the difference in success margins between the two.
Mar, if I'm understanding your post correctly, my gripe is not that there isn't additional damage to a subsequent shield bash. My gripe is the great difference in success margin between a shield riposte and an offensive shield bash. Given the difference in success margin between the two, at least for my warrior (130 ranks shield use, 5 ranks shield bash, 3 ranks riposte) shield riposte stance is not worth the cost.
However, to answer your question, I did not try to accurately calculate the additional amount of RT added from a successful riposte... largely due to the infrequency of getting a successful riposte, and when I do they are very low. Anecdotally, it did appear to add approximately 1-2 seconds of RT with a very low success margin (101-110).
Mar, if I'm understanding your post correctly, my gripe is not that there isn't additional damage to a subsequent shield bash. My gripe is the great difference in success margin between a shield riposte and an offensive shield bash. Given the difference in success margin between the two, at least for my warrior (130 ranks shield use, 5 ranks shield bash, 3 ranks riposte) shield riposte stance is not worth the cost.
However, to answer your question, I did not try to accurately calculate the additional amount of RT added from a successful riposte... largely due to the infrequency of getting a successful riposte, and when I do they are very low. Anecdotally, it did appear to add approximately 1-2 seconds of RT with a very low success margin (101-110).
