JAEDEN
JOEKRYSTEL
Re: make 3x CM possible
10/26/2011 01:12 PM CDT
I'm still more in favor of heavy plate class armor. Warriors already have (if I recall correctly) the most 3x possible combat skills.
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
AIM: GS4Menos
>Here lies the formless world we´re living in
>Gravity is finally giving in
>High altitudes and still upward we go
>I was never meant to lead but to follow
ROBLAR
Re: make 3x CM possible
10/27/2011 02:02 AM CDT
Since it's nearing the holidays, my wishlist would also include 3x CM training. I'd even be happy to have warriors drop dodge to 2x to get CM up to 3x. It would actually cost more to triple CM than it does for dodge (44 mtp vs 40) so I'd think that would be balanced. We'd get +50 AS at cap & more cman variety vs less DS, not bad.
Menos, what is this plate class idea? A higher asg than full plate is now?
Oh, and I'd also like to see an armor specialization for warriors to increase the cva of armor. Every bit of effective TD helps.
Menos, what is this plate class idea? A higher asg than full plate is now?
Oh, and I'd also like to see an armor specialization for warriors to increase the cva of armor. Every bit of effective TD helps.
EJKATZ
Re: make 3x CM possible
10/27/2011 02:18 PM CDT
>Oh, and I'd also like to see an armor specialization for warriors to increase the cva of armor. Every bit of effective TD helps.
You absolutely read my mind, this is the first thing I thought of when I saw tinkering with armor classes mentioned. Something (other than krodera armor) to help not get insta-warded by a laughable margin by any and everything that ever learned a spell, without having to rely so heavily on finding boatloads of magical trinkets and making sure they have plenty juice in them.
I just wish there was some/any mechanism to address this without resorting to paladin-ery.
That said, I'm on the record as in favor of this in some ancient thread of the past. 3x CM would just be so great an addition. More CMANs (because lets be honest...why should a warrior have to choose between a haymaker and a bear hug?) and the shot of AS we need to address the consummately irritating fact of semi class AS dominance.
*Mohrgan knows, he really is Dreaming*
RATHBONER
Re: make 3x CM possible
10/27/2011 03:29 PM CDT
>(because lets be honest...why should a warrior have to choose between a haymaker and a bear hug?)
Choosing both is quite possible, though when monks appear the UCS will probably make Haymaker redundant. (If it isn't a whole lot more effective than haymaker the whinging from players will be terrible to behold)
My pseudo monk's Combat Maneuver training is as follows:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Bearhug bearhug 4
Haymaker haymaker 2
Coup de Grace coupdegrace 3
Choosing both is quite possible, though when monks appear the UCS will probably make Haymaker redundant. (If it isn't a whole lot more effective than haymaker the whinging from players will be terrible to behold)
My pseudo monk's Combat Maneuver training is as follows:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Bearhug bearhug 4
Haymaker haymaker 2
Coup de Grace coupdegrace 3
ARCHIGEEK
Re: make 3x CM possible
10/27/2011 07:08 PM CDT
3x CM is a long way from being imbalancing.
+50AS at cap is hardly a big deal. There are already multiple other classes that can hit much harder than that addition would add. And with a cap on increased CMAN effectiveness at 2x, 3x CM's biggest benefit would be more choices of CMANs to use.
Kerl
+50AS at cap is hardly a big deal. There are already multiple other classes that can hit much harder than that addition would add. And with a cap on increased CMAN effectiveness at 2x, 3x CM's biggest benefit would be more choices of CMANs to use.
Kerl
EJKATZ
Re: make 3x CM possible
10/31/2011 10:08 PM CDT
>Choosing both is quite possible, though when monks appear the UCS will probably make Haymaker redundant. (If it isn't a whole lot more effective than haymaker the whinging from players will be terrible to behold)
Yes, I know you can train in both if you want (I don't train in either, because I have my precious, precious CMAN points allocated elsewhere). I was just making the point that it doesn't make a lot of logical sense that these maneuvers...one of which isn't substantially more or less useful than another, except possibly situationally...should have so limited an access based on the scarcity of CMAN points that we have available. And it doesn't make a whole lot of conceptual sense either, that learning to bearhug and haymaker and yadayadayadawhateverelse shouldn't be in the realm of possibility for a highly trained warrior. I was just using those two to make my point, not implying that any of them are super great relative to each other or that both together are anything special.
And Kerl's post sums it all up very nicely. Even with an extra +50AS, paladins will still be swinging 700+ on the strength of their own spells and are still way out in front of us warriors, as are Bards and rangers likely to be. My warrior swings at 515 AS with a fully specialized (+10) and bonded (+10) 4x HCW axe (so functionally its like an 8x), and that is with Voln Symbol of Courage up and Rank 5 Surge of Strength up. That's just so far below what other classes can achieve on their own strength that it drives me mad!
Even if you gave me that extra +50, I'd be at 565, which would STILL leave me way below them, so the AS obviously isn't unbalancing. But like Kerl says, it's just as much about giving us more options and breadth to use more CMANs in more appropriate situations for more flavor, which on their own aren't better or worse than any other CMAN, for the most part. And lest we forget...it would still be hugely expensive to train in!
*Mohrgan grins cheerfully*
Yes, I know you can train in both if you want (I don't train in either, because I have my precious, precious CMAN points allocated elsewhere). I was just making the point that it doesn't make a lot of logical sense that these maneuvers...one of which isn't substantially more or less useful than another, except possibly situationally...should have so limited an access based on the scarcity of CMAN points that we have available. And it doesn't make a whole lot of conceptual sense either, that learning to bearhug and haymaker and yadayadayadawhateverelse shouldn't be in the realm of possibility for a highly trained warrior. I was just using those two to make my point, not implying that any of them are super great relative to each other or that both together are anything special.
And Kerl's post sums it all up very nicely. Even with an extra +50AS, paladins will still be swinging 700+ on the strength of their own spells and are still way out in front of us warriors, as are Bards and rangers likely to be. My warrior swings at 515 AS with a fully specialized (+10) and bonded (+10) 4x HCW axe (so functionally its like an 8x), and that is with Voln Symbol of Courage up and Rank 5 Surge of Strength up. That's just so far below what other classes can achieve on their own strength that it drives me mad!
Even if you gave me that extra +50, I'd be at 565, which would STILL leave me way below them, so the AS obviously isn't unbalancing. But like Kerl says, it's just as much about giving us more options and breadth to use more CMANs in more appropriate situations for more flavor, which on their own aren't better or worse than any other CMAN, for the most part. And lest we forget...it would still be hugely expensive to train in!
*Mohrgan grins cheerfully*
THROGG
Re: make 3x CM possible
11/01/2011 10:00 AM CDT
>>My warrior swings at 515 AS with a fully specialized (+10) and bonded (+10) 4x HCW axe (so functionally its like an 8x), and that is with Voln Symbol of Courage up and Rank 5 Surge of Strength up<<
Wimp! I think my level empath was swinging a 7x Two hander with an AS in the upper 400s, with a white crystal in effect but otherwise just self-spelled. (What was even scarier is that she had a focused M-strike). I don't recall the exact AS figure, since at 94 I converted her to a pure caster; don't think I have any combat logs, but I'll check. And yes, I have seen paladins (capped, of course) swing in the upper 600s.
The whole gist of my post is that I agree that warriors should be able to attack bit better.
Wimp! I think my level empath was swinging a 7x Two hander with an AS in the upper 400s, with a white crystal in effect but otherwise just self-spelled. (What was even scarier is that she had a focused M-strike). I don't recall the exact AS figure, since at 94 I converted her to a pure caster; don't think I have any combat logs, but I'll check. And yes, I have seen paladins (capped, of course) swing in the upper 600s.
The whole gist of my post is that I agree that warriors should be able to attack bit better.
TROUBLE13
Re: make 3x CM possible
11/01/2011 02:12 PM CDT
That 7x weapon gives you a +15 over his 4x, the strength another +15, and isn't your empath a giant? Which would give you another +10 over the racial bonus of a human, +15 vs +5. Levels 95-99 would give you another +10 AS and 100 you'd get +1. I could go through and toss up more numbers but the thing is a capped empaths AS isn't near what a warriors is all things being equal. And while warrior AS is enough to get the job done in most places I still think it should be higher then it is, and I would love to have more cman points to play with. It's supposed to be a strength but we are still rather limited in what we can train because of cman point costs to learn most of the maneuvers. I also don't see a problem with warriors being able to 3x train in so many skills, they are all physical combat related and that is what warriors are supposed to be good at.
EJKATZ
Re: make 3x CM possible
11/02/2011 08:34 AM CDT
> And while warrior AS is enough to get the job done in most places I still think it should be higher then it is
You're right, it generally is enough, as you say, to get the job done. What it really makes me wonder is what the H-E-double-hockey-stick they were thinking when they decided that paladins should be able to produce such obscene AS numbers. But given that they did, I just wish there was some way for us as warriors to get on a level playing field. 3x CMAN wouldn't even DO that. But it would still be something.
It's all pretty much moot as I feel like we were told sometime in the distant past that there was no way this was going to happen, but every year or so I feel I need to get on the record as pointing out how glaringly left behind warriors have gotten in terms of AS, and how conceptually baffling that fact is.
*Mohrgan grins cheerfully*
TROUBLE13
Re: make 3x CM possible
11/04/2011 11:54 AM CDT
>>What it really makes me wonder is what the H-E-double-hockey-stick they were thinking when they decided that paladins should be able to produce such obscene AS numbers.
I'd bet good money they never really thought that all the way through.
>>It's all pretty much moot as I feel like we were told sometime in the distant past that there was no way this was going to happen, but every year or so I feel I need to get on the record as pointing out how glaringly left behind warriors have gotten in terms of AS, and how conceptually baffling that fact is.
I am pretty sure I've seen in the past something along the lines of it being stated that short of a GS V that they wouldn't be making any changes of that nature.
>>but every year or so I feel I need to get on the record as pointing out how glaringly left behind warriors have gotten in terms of AS, and how conceptually baffling that fact is.
I agree completely.
I'd bet good money they never really thought that all the way through.
>>It's all pretty much moot as I feel like we were told sometime in the distant past that there was no way this was going to happen, but every year or so I feel I need to get on the record as pointing out how glaringly left behind warriors have gotten in terms of AS, and how conceptually baffling that fact is.
I am pretty sure I've seen in the past something along the lines of it being stated that short of a GS V that they wouldn't be making any changes of that nature.
>>but every year or so I feel I need to get on the record as pointing out how glaringly left behind warriors have gotten in terms of AS, and how conceptually baffling that fact is.
I agree completely.
