So... I have a question... and I'm not trying to be difficult... but I think I want some clarity here.
I was recently denied/asked to rework something in my premium home's design due to cannon and not wanting to imply that my character or her family is nobility. This was the item in question:
A,gold-framed,portrait (2)
Dressed in medal-adorned Legion refinement, a blonde Elven male with striking blue eyes stands rigidly at attention in front of several mahogany bookshelves, his gaze fixed on nothing in particular. A graceful Elven female wearing a pale aquilorn gown sits beside him, her long titian hair pulled into a carefully styled side bun. Despite her smile, a look of loss is reflected in her somber green eyes. A gold filigreed frame affixed with a small plate along the bottom edge surrounds the portrait.
> read plate
In flowing Elven Script, it reads:
Beloved Father and Mother, Vezeret and Lareina Arahaelon Vaalor
The response I was given regarding it was this:
painting - The Legion reference can stay, since it is general enough and doesn't imply a specific rank. However, the aqilorn will have to be removed. Aqilorn has only recently been made accessible to non-nobility, and we cannot go against cannon and imply that you or your family are nobility.
If aqilorn is the sole and specific issue here in a painting and not an actual item, fine, that's not big deal... but it's not. The reason given is cannon and the nobility: Aqilorn has only recently been made accessible to non-nobility, and we cannot go against cannon and imply that you or your family are nobility.
We are granted titles based on level that directly imply such with Lord/Lady status. I understand that it is a show of level at 20, 40, 70, and then capped, but if it is solely for that and not for a reason to RP, then why do we have those specific titles? IF we take that aspect out of the equation we are still left with the fact that even if I weren't going around as a High Lady everywhere I wandered... I still have access to the postname title of Noblewoman because I used PPs to gain access to it. If I am going to be told that my character and/or her family cannot cannonically be considered nobility in what would be a decoration inside a private property, yet I very clearly have a premium title stating otherwise, what is the point of HAVING the premium title or having paid out my premium points to get it if I am going to be denied this aspect of RP?
I am sure this can go into MANY different threads, but I figured this would be a good starting point because part of it is dealing with titles.
#bardlife
LTLPRPRINCESS
OM1E5GA
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/23/2018 04:29 PM CDT
It should be noted that, historically, the title "Lord" was never limited to nobility IRL.
The title was used by members of parts of the peerage, but just about any land owner would have been referred to as "Lord of XXXX" regardless of if they were members of the peerage. Bishops could also use the tile even though they didn't necessarily come from noble families, similarly people would often refer to their employer as "Lord" and the children of nobility were often called "young Lord" or "young Lady" regardless of whether or not they would go on to join the peerage.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
The title was used by members of parts of the peerage, but just about any land owner would have been referred to as "Lord of XXXX" regardless of if they were members of the peerage. Bishops could also use the tile even though they didn't necessarily come from noble families, similarly people would often refer to their employer as "Lord" and the children of nobility were often called "young Lord" or "young Lady" regardless of whether or not they would go on to join the peerage.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
LTLPRPRINCESS
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/23/2018 04:36 PM CDT
While I appreciate the input on that aspect, what about the OTHER point I was making... specifically the Noblewoman title available to me via PP titles?
#bardlife
#bardlife
OM1E5GA
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/23/2018 05:04 PM CDT
<While I appreciate the input on that aspect, what about the OTHER point I was making... specifically the Noblewoman title available to me via PP titles?>
I don't have much to say to that other then I never felt right about any of those titles and wouldn't mind seeing them just going away. All the others are granted based on choices made when creating a character, participation in RP, training path, and/or in game achievements and have some sort of meaning. The PP ones just mean someone spends more money in the game then others.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I don't have much to say to that other then I never felt right about any of those titles and wouldn't mind seeing them just going away. All the others are granted based on choices made when creating a character, participation in RP, training path, and/or in game achievements and have some sort of meaning. The PP ones just mean someone spends more money in the game then others.
Starchitin, the OG
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
INIQUITY
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 01:20 AM CDT
Unless a title was given by a within-game authority (e.g. "Mayor", "Palestra", "Knight-Errant"), I do not see why character titles would be recognized by those authorities.
The Lord/Lady for Level 20 thing was implemented when there was only the one frontier town. It was ironic because such a town obviously has no aristocracy.
- Xorus' player
Wehnimer's Landing Town Halls, Now With Authentic Frontier Gibberish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U
The Lord/Lady for Level 20 thing was implemented when there was only the one frontier town. It was ironic because such a town obviously has no aristocracy.
- Xorus' player
Wehnimer's Landing Town Halls, Now With Authentic Frontier Gibberish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U
LTLPRPRINCESS
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 04:21 AM CDT
For certain specific and limited positions and roles, yes, I agree, as we would have an incredible amount of people claiming such limited roles that hold a significant amount of power and influence.
For titles available through other meand that aren't as specific or include a sphere of influence yet allow a level of RP beyond that of a basic turnip farmer, why are those people to be shut down through that RP? There can be only so many knights, yes. However, in the case of nobility, there are often many tiers from those who were recognized as such for deeds and those who were born into it, those higher to the throne to those lower and out of grace with the king. NOBILITY does NOT mean ROYALTY.
#bardlife
For titles available through other meand that aren't as specific or include a sphere of influence yet allow a level of RP beyond that of a basic turnip farmer, why are those people to be shut down through that RP? There can be only so many knights, yes. However, in the case of nobility, there are often many tiers from those who were recognized as such for deeds and those who were born into it, those higher to the throne to those lower and out of grace with the king. NOBILITY does NOT mean ROYALTY.
#bardlife
MENOS
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 05:18 AM CDT
I see no value at all in a rule limiting such a mundane bit of personal history as being from a noble family. Even without an available title, that is such a standard archetype of fantasy characters that removing it greatly reduces options in a game replete with people wanting to live out some version or likeness to a character they find interesting.
It is perfectly reasonable for them to avoid making a sheriff badge or royal crown or some such as that might tread into official history stuff... but being upper class vs middle or lower is no such danger. I know there are people who obsessively want everyone to have the backstory of turnip farmer until the second the character was active in the game (I think we had this talk on the boards about palestra histories not long ago), but that is a boring monotone world. Spread some of the laissez fare used on cloth armors over on this bit of policy please.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
It is perfectly reasonable for them to avoid making a sheriff badge or royal crown or some such as that might tread into official history stuff... but being upper class vs middle or lower is no such danger. I know there are people who obsessively want everyone to have the backstory of turnip farmer until the second the character was active in the game (I think we had this talk on the boards about palestra histories not long ago), but that is a boring monotone world. Spread some of the laissez fare used on cloth armors over on this bit of policy please.
Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
RATHBONER
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 07:30 AM CDT
Aristocrats aren't going to do anything but sneer at someone who has obtained a title of nobility by purchasing it in a far off land. If anyone tries pushing them around in their own land on the basis of a purchased foreign status they are going to get a severe put down.
ARMYJEN
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 08:59 AM CDT
I see zero reason why people shouldn't be able to roleplay that they are part of the nobility or descended from nobility dependent upon their race and how they roleplay it.
We have five active elven houses, each with many, many, many nobles. We have twenty-one different human cultures and many of those would have nobility and many, many, many nobles. I'm not going to touch the other cultures here. Nobility comes and goes and not all descendents from nobility are nobility themselves. There should be some nobility floating around. Yes only a small amount of the PC population would/should be part of the nobility, but it's completely possible for it to happen and in a game where you get to choose your role, I don't see why not. Especially when so much of Ta'Illistim is based around nobility and the courts. Look at the Mirror and her Handmaidens.
It used to be a problem when everyone and their brother wanted to claim that they'd have a direct ear to the king or queen or royalty. This could easily be roleplayed away by those royalty NPCs. There were plenty examples in history of nobles that were not given access to the royalty and were considered little more than bumpkins. Given a caveat that any "noble" player character would not be considered part of the inner workings of the court unless they earned that through their RP, I think it's a completely valid roleplaying path. Anyone who was being a complete snert about it could be shunned by the royalty, other nobles, and player characters making their path very hard.
I don't give this opinion as a person who is any way interested in choosing that path. My characters range from a bloodthirsty barbaric wolf giant to a sadistic Mularosian who doesn't hide her bent to a half-breed Ta'Nalfein assassin cleric of Onar to a humble Nalfein scholar of politics. None of them are interested in nobility (and I never will be either - protocol schmotocol!).
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
We have five active elven houses, each with many, many, many nobles. We have twenty-one different human cultures and many of those would have nobility and many, many, many nobles. I'm not going to touch the other cultures here. Nobility comes and goes and not all descendents from nobility are nobility themselves. There should be some nobility floating around. Yes only a small amount of the PC population would/should be part of the nobility, but it's completely possible for it to happen and in a game where you get to choose your role, I don't see why not. Especially when so much of Ta'Illistim is based around nobility and the courts. Look at the Mirror and her Handmaidens.
It used to be a problem when everyone and their brother wanted to claim that they'd have a direct ear to the king or queen or royalty. This could easily be roleplayed away by those royalty NPCs. There were plenty examples in history of nobles that were not given access to the royalty and were considered little more than bumpkins. Given a caveat that any "noble" player character would not be considered part of the inner workings of the court unless they earned that through their RP, I think it's a completely valid roleplaying path. Anyone who was being a complete snert about it could be shunned by the royalty, other nobles, and player characters making their path very hard.
I don't give this opinion as a person who is any way interested in choosing that path. My characters range from a bloodthirsty barbaric wolf giant to a sadistic Mularosian who doesn't hide her bent to a half-breed Ta'Nalfein assassin cleric of Onar to a humble Nalfein scholar of politics. None of them are interested in nobility (and I never will be either - protocol schmotocol!).
--Jen
>Darcena says, "But I cannot give my heart to someone else, when I no longer own it."
>Balley nods, "I hope you will find your heart and heal one day."
>Darcena admits, "I think he ate it."
>Balley's jaw drops, "Really. Men are jerks at times."
AVAIA
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 10:48 AM CDT
I hope we get a GM response on this, because now I am curious as well.
My opinion? It does seem arbitrary to deny the painting. If you were claiming to be in direct line to the throne or receiving some sort of mechanical benefit from it that is one thing, but a member of the Nobility? There are hundreds or thousands of Nobles in a Court. What does it ultimately hurt that you wish to say your parents were among them?
At the very least if such a thing is not allowed they should refund your Premium Points and remove that as an option, but that seems like a lose/lose scenario.
Avaia, player of
My opinion? It does seem arbitrary to deny the painting. If you were claiming to be in direct line to the throne or receiving some sort of mechanical benefit from it that is one thing, but a member of the Nobility? There are hundreds or thousands of Nobles in a Court. What does it ultimately hurt that you wish to say your parents were among them?
At the very least if such a thing is not allowed they should refund your Premium Points and remove that as an option, but that seems like a lose/lose scenario.
Avaia, player of
VANKRASN39
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 11:08 AM CDT
Also, it's a painting. A painting is not always an accurate representation and artists do take liberties with details like clothing. Just because there's a painting does not mean it is being taken or represented as proof of royal ancestry.
And as mentioned, there are thousands of nobles in the nobility; it is an entire class of people, not just the immediate royal family.
RATHBONER
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 01:26 PM CDT
>There are hundreds or thousands of Nobles in a Court.
Nowhere near that many. There might well be just 10 elfs in Vaalor that are Nobles. While there might be a couple of hundred at a court, most would be followers or dependents rather than Nobles.
VEYTHORNE
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/24/2018 01:41 PM CDT
This could all be resolved by invading the kingdom and seizing the throne.
GS4-MAZRETH
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/25/2018 11:09 PM CDT
I'll respond to this since I'm the one that denied it,
Players are encouraged to RP how they want, even nobility. The issue here is that this is an object going into a permanent property in the game. Any such object created by GMs carries with it some intrinsic acknowledgment or approval. In this case, such a painting would establish "officially" that the family, and therefore the character, were from an upper noble house. (If you read the History/Background (https://gswiki.play.net/Aqilorn), you will see that aqilorn was 'prohibitively expensive for all but the upper nobility.') In a frontier setting there may be some flexibility with nobles, but in Vaalor's political structure upper noble houses actually carry some power and that is not something I wished to canonize so to speak.
Though you may say "it's just a painting", paintings carry history and lore forward. For example, the painting of Menos saving the King in Guardian Keep will forever pass along the story (which has become an established piece of the fabric of Ta'Vaalor and its history) for all future generations long after Menos is gone. It is with such thinking that the fabric in the painting was denied. JUST the fabric due to the rank it implies.
~Mazreth
"Mother, should I trust the Government?"
Players are encouraged to RP how they want, even nobility. The issue here is that this is an object going into a permanent property in the game. Any such object created by GMs carries with it some intrinsic acknowledgment or approval. In this case, such a painting would establish "officially" that the family, and therefore the character, were from an upper noble house. (If you read the History/Background (https://gswiki.play.net/Aqilorn), you will see that aqilorn was 'prohibitively expensive for all but the upper nobility.') In a frontier setting there may be some flexibility with nobles, but in Vaalor's political structure upper noble houses actually carry some power and that is not something I wished to canonize so to speak.
Though you may say "it's just a painting", paintings carry history and lore forward. For example, the painting of Menos saving the King in Guardian Keep will forever pass along the story (which has become an established piece of the fabric of Ta'Vaalor and its history) for all future generations long after Menos is gone. It is with such thinking that the fabric in the painting was denied. JUST the fabric due to the rank it implies.
~Mazreth
"Mother, should I trust the Government?"
LTLPRPRINCESS
Re: Titles, RP, and Cannon
08/26/2018 07:33 AM CDT
Thank you for the clarification, as the reason I was given did not detail upper nobility versus lower nobility. There is a difference, for sure, and I can accept that reasoning behind it more than a blanket "she can't be nobility" (implying of any tier).
#bardlife
#bardlife
