I happened to be looking at the sylvan history document, specifically this section:
>"Marriage was more than a union between two sylvans; it was considered a solemn oath that was not to be broken unless all other recourses had been exhausted. During the long years spent journeying to Yuriqen, the union between sylvan individuals often relied, out of necessity, on two individuals choosing each other. In Yuriqen, such unofficial practices soon disappeared. Marriages were usually arranged between families, and were designed to bring about honor for the houses more than to facilitate any sort of romantic alliance. Often two sylvans who were betrothed had never met prior to the engagement ceremony. In some cases, where two households were closely allied, such as ties within a D'aharanal, the attraction of a suitable sylvan youth to a likewise interested girl was deemed auspicious, and the betrothal of the two combined both political and emotional goals. Ultimately, the happiness of the pair was considered important, but children resulting from the union were the ultimate goal.
>The basis of sylvan religion was a faith and attendant ceremonies with Imaera at its heart. Thus, it was logical that a newly married couple resided with the bride's family. The strong, matriarchal chain had sustained the sylvans during their long years of hardship and it stood them good stead in the years of plenty as well. Households welcomed the new grooms into the family, considering them as brothers equal to any man related by blood.
>Childbirth was a family affair, a ceremony wherein women of the family cemented their bonds as sisters, mothers and daughters, while they helped the new mother through the painful process. During the labor, the men of the household gathered to tell family stories that reached back through the generations. When the new arrival was announced, the birth was joyfully though quietly acknowledged and, if the labor had been a long one, the household retired to rest. On the sorrowful occasions when either the baby or mother or both did not survive, the family retired and regrouped the following day to mourn together.
>Newborns of either sex were appreciated equally. Offspring were given the name of the household in which they were born, and their successes in life honored both parents, as well as the family in which they were raised.
>As years of plenty replenished the decimated population of the sylvans, this expectation was relaxed. In later years, bringing honor to a household via service or excellence in a chosen endeavor was viewed as a worthy contribution."
The original version of the document included these paragraphs between the penultimate and last paragraphs of the above:
>"In some instances, a family observed that one of its children preferred a same-sex partner. These individuals were not considered to be any less worthy than others; rather it was viewed as a different, though valid path. The child often communicated this preference to the elders of the household, since nothing was considered wrong about the choice.
>In that case, the arrangements for a union were handled identically to those of the other children, although the number of available partners was more limited. While limited choices often meant an alliance that was not deemed as profitable, it was known that the happiness of the prospective marriage partners directly affected the happiness of the household at large, and this meant much more than wealth or political gain. Once a partner was found for the child, the marriage ceremony was celebrated as joyfully as any other marriage. However, in choosing which household the pair would make their home, the details were somewhat more complicated. These negotiations were settled during the betrothal, usually benefiting the more successful household, or else the household that offered the best potential for children. For it was always expected that at least one member of a same-sex union would choose a surrogate partner in order to bring the blessing of a child to the household."
I'm curious why this section was cut. It's kind of noticeable that it's missing, since the "As years of plenty replenished the decimated population of the sylvans, this expectation was relaxed" line, which still appears in the document, makes very little sense without the now-absent preceding paragraph explaining what "this expectation" is.
CLAIRELROJ
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 10:21 AM CDT
I'm not the guru (i.e. don't take my word for it), but unfortunately, I think the GMs who oversaw the adaptation of the document into an official document are no longer on staff. As a result, the individuals who made the editing decision aren't here to provide an answer to your question.
GM Scribes
GM Scribes
HATESHI
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 12:14 PM CDT
Scribes,
Can it be added back in?
I recall a fairly heated debate when the document was first released, between both players and staff, but I don't recall the outcome (other than that apparently we're still at the status quo of its release).
- Overlord EK
Can it be added back in?
I recall a fairly heated debate when the document was first released, between both players and staff, but I don't recall the outcome (other than that apparently we're still at the status quo of its release).
- Overlord EK
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 01:06 PM CDT
<<Can it be added back in?
Not my call!
As someone who actually is in the process of adapting (slowly) some player work (and have done so previously), I will say that I treat the document as a rough draft. The document is accepted because those in charge of the topic believe that as a whole it's a great thing, but that doesn't mean it will or should be wholesale adopted without the guru of the topic throwing in their opinions with changes happening as a result.
Gurus are generally selected because those GameMasters have exhibited a passion for the race/town and that's based on a thorough knowledge of and passion for the topic. If and when they decide to make decisions toward a document, in these types of circumstances, it certainly wouldn't have been done willynilly.
From my own opinion of the sylvans, I see them as a very conservative race. They're elves who chose not to "move on" so to speak into the cultures that built the great cities in the east and established an empire of dominance for thousands of years over the other races. Instead, they chose to keep to the "traditional" ways. Explicit is the decision of the families toward whom marries whom with the expectation that children be the result. For a race driven for many centuries, if not thousands of years, out of home and out of fear that their children be enslaved, propogation would indeed be a very important element of the culture. In this case, I'd argue that when love and attraction are merely positive bonuses to an arranged marriage, that the drive for children is of the utmost importance, then families would force their children, gender preference or not, to marry the opposite sex.
Instead of an explicit approval of same sex marriages, I'd see the sylvans having some kind of informal attitude of accepting extramarital same sex relationships so long as children are regularly produced within the arranged marriage. As noted in the document, and above, love and attraction are secondary to a child producing union. To me, this implies that parents would not heed the sexual preferences of their children, be it for men who like ladies with green eyes or for men who like men with green eyes.
That's my opinion. Our sylvan guru may hold the same or completely different views!
My guess, going back to the earlier debate when the document was first released, is that most likely the decision was made to keep out those paragraphs. Hence their still current absence.
GM Scribes
Not my call!
As someone who actually is in the process of adapting (slowly) some player work (and have done so previously), I will say that I treat the document as a rough draft. The document is accepted because those in charge of the topic believe that as a whole it's a great thing, but that doesn't mean it will or should be wholesale adopted without the guru of the topic throwing in their opinions with changes happening as a result.
Gurus are generally selected because those GameMasters have exhibited a passion for the race/town and that's based on a thorough knowledge of and passion for the topic. If and when they decide to make decisions toward a document, in these types of circumstances, it certainly wouldn't have been done willynilly.
From my own opinion of the sylvans, I see them as a very conservative race. They're elves who chose not to "move on" so to speak into the cultures that built the great cities in the east and established an empire of dominance for thousands of years over the other races. Instead, they chose to keep to the "traditional" ways. Explicit is the decision of the families toward whom marries whom with the expectation that children be the result. For a race driven for many centuries, if not thousands of years, out of home and out of fear that their children be enslaved, propogation would indeed be a very important element of the culture. In this case, I'd argue that when love and attraction are merely positive bonuses to an arranged marriage, that the drive for children is of the utmost importance, then families would force their children, gender preference or not, to marry the opposite sex.
Instead of an explicit approval of same sex marriages, I'd see the sylvans having some kind of informal attitude of accepting extramarital same sex relationships so long as children are regularly produced within the arranged marriage. As noted in the document, and above, love and attraction are secondary to a child producing union. To me, this implies that parents would not heed the sexual preferences of their children, be it for men who like ladies with green eyes or for men who like men with green eyes.
That's my opinion. Our sylvan guru may hold the same or completely different views!
My guess, going back to the earlier debate when the document was first released, is that most likely the decision was made to keep out those paragraphs. Hence their still current absence.
GM Scribes
CLAIRELROJ
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 01:10 PM CDT
>As someone who actually is in the process of adapting (slowly) some player work (and have done so previously), I will say that I treat the document as a rough draft. The document is accepted because those in charge of the topic believe that as a whole it's a great thing, but that doesn't mean it will or should be wholesale adopted without the guru of the topic throwing in their opinions with changes happening as a result.
Hi Scribes,
There seems to be a little confusion. The paragraphs that I quoted were not from a player-written document. They were from the version of the sylvan document originally released by the then-racial Guru, in the form of an in-game lecture by an NPC that was otherwise verbatim to the currently posted website version.
Hi Scribes,
There seems to be a little confusion. The paragraphs that I quoted were not from a player-written document. They were from the version of the sylvan document originally released by the then-racial Guru, in the form of an in-game lecture by an NPC that was otherwise verbatim to the currently posted website version.
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 01:32 PM CDT
Yough?
Which came first?
From my own experience as a player and later as GM, whatever NPCs say in game should be considered secondary to what is published on the website. In terms of canon, it's published on the website > said on the forums by the guru > said by a guru in person at Simucon > whatever an NPC said in-game > whatever a guru who's had too much to drink at simucon says in person.
This doesn't mean that everything an NPC says about something is bunk, as it could easily be something in the pipeline to be published, etc...but in the battle between what source is appropriate, it's the website docs as the final word.
Now if the guru run NPC added the paragraphs in after the doc was published, they might have had plans to amend the doc. If it was before the doc was published, then perhaps it was a conscious decision not to add them. In the end, it really does boil down to the decision of our current Sylvan guru.
GM Scribes
Which came first?
From my own experience as a player and later as GM, whatever NPCs say in game should be considered secondary to what is published on the website. In terms of canon, it's published on the website > said on the forums by the guru > said by a guru in person at Simucon > whatever an NPC said in-game > whatever a guru who's had too much to drink at simucon says in person.
This doesn't mean that everything an NPC says about something is bunk, as it could easily be something in the pipeline to be published, etc...but in the battle between what source is appropriate, it's the website docs as the final word.
Now if the guru run NPC added the paragraphs in after the doc was published, they might have had plans to amend the doc. If it was before the doc was published, then perhaps it was a conscious decision not to add them. In the end, it really does boil down to the decision of our current Sylvan guru.
GM Scribes
ETANNIDOMHNAILL
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 04:42 PM CDT
<<Which came first?>>
The in-game lecture came first. I remember reading it before the histories were published on the website.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
The in-game lecture came first. I remember reading it before the histories were published on the website.
Gretchen
Meeting Nilandia: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Nilandia
Nilandia's GS4 Info Repository: http://www.nilandia.com
AIM: Lady Nilandia
GS4-SCRIBES
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/09/2011 04:57 PM CDT
Yah, then in that case, it's my guess is that it was intentionally left out. Is that what happened? No idea. :D
GM Scribes, the unhelpful.
GM Scribes, the unhelpful.
GS4-NAIONNA
Re: Sylvan history document (marriage section)
06/10/2011 12:35 AM CDT
Not having been the guru at the time of this documentation (or during any said editing of said documentation) I honestly can't speak to the reasons for the change. I can only speak as to my current view on the state of sylvan marriage. Like Scribes, I view the sylvans as very conservative and traditional people. Does that mean that they would never honor a same-sex marriage? Not at all, especially in a Lassaran tribe of sylvans who have departed from Yuriqen and adapted less traditional ways. However, even in a Lassaran tribe there are base traditional values that I feel are always maintained and bearing children is one of them. Hence, it would be accepted in my mind to have extramarital relations with a sylvan of the opposite sex in order to produce children as that is the main purpose of a marriage.
Now, please understand that while documentation may not mention something specifically, it does not mean it can't happen. I like to look at documentation as an accounting of the majority of people it applies to, not an end all be all accounting. There are always going to be exceptions and we as adventurers in Elanthia are always going to be an exception to the norm. We are adventurers, not commoners. We are supposed to be exceptions. So if your character, who is an adventurer, chooses to step outside of the 'norm' for the majority of your race then you should definitely feel free to do that. Granted, if you meet someone who is familiar with the 'norm' of your race, they may very well question you and be confused. But that's part of the fun, in my opinion - the diversity, the questions, the conversations that come with it - those are all part of why we build diverse characters - to generate interest.
A documentation will be released (hopefully) this year in regards to Sylvan marriage and the rites involved. Hopefully this will help expand some of what occurs during traditional (and sometimes non traditional) marriages of sylvans. I do however still believe that the production of children will be first and foremost in the choosing of a union for those who hold to tradition in the sylvan culture. This falls right in line with the culture as a whole.
~Naionna
Sylvan Guru (currently!)
Now, please understand that while documentation may not mention something specifically, it does not mean it can't happen. I like to look at documentation as an accounting of the majority of people it applies to, not an end all be all accounting. There are always going to be exceptions and we as adventurers in Elanthia are always going to be an exception to the norm. We are adventurers, not commoners. We are supposed to be exceptions. So if your character, who is an adventurer, chooses to step outside of the 'norm' for the majority of your race then you should definitely feel free to do that. Granted, if you meet someone who is familiar with the 'norm' of your race, they may very well question you and be confused. But that's part of the fun, in my opinion - the diversity, the questions, the conversations that come with it - those are all part of why we build diverse characters - to generate interest.
A documentation will be released (hopefully) this year in regards to Sylvan marriage and the rites involved. Hopefully this will help expand some of what occurs during traditional (and sometimes non traditional) marriages of sylvans. I do however still believe that the production of children will be first and foremost in the choosing of a union for those who hold to tradition in the sylvan culture. This falls right in line with the culture as a whole.
~Naionna
Sylvan Guru (currently!)
