VANKRASN39
unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 03:24 AM CDT
Insight seems to have importance completely out of proportion to the other stats. What does speed do? It doesn't seem to be decreasing the RT or increasing attack frequency. Defense doesn't seem to do anything, neither does accuracy. What stat makes it more difficult for others to see your beast change stance?
Why don't the trainers seem to ever have RT for changing stances?
COLEMANJ
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 03:34 AM CDT
Defense determines how often your beast avoids damage, via block, parry, or dodge. (I assume which of these it does depends on the beast type? Perhaps just random)
Accuracy has quite a few affects, including doing more damage in a defensive status (though still not as much as if you were striking, rather than guarding), as well as more damage from special attacks.
I'm not sure what all benefits levels of speed have, but at Max Speed, your beast gets a buff that increases attack avoidance by 3%, and goes up from there.
I do agree, though, that Insight is rather important in my opinion. Not only does it allow you to do more damage, and receive less, but it allows you to gain special ability charges by giving you the opportunity to be in a superior stance more often, and alternatively keeping your opponent from earning charges.
COLEMANJ
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 03:38 AM CDT
Also, they do have RT for changing stances.
Here's what I imagine your circumstances are:
You sensed their stance, and they changed shortly after. They may have been in that stance for some time.
or
You saw their stance change, and immediately countered. However, their beast noticed yours, and countered on it's own.
It seems like a majority of the time, Trainers change quite often, for better or worse. If I recall, Auchand said they have a 50/50 chance of choosing the correct stance.
Biggest difference between players and trainers, is that players have habits and strategies. The trainers are just pretty much random.
VANKRASN39
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 10:45 AM CDT
Yes, I can read the previous posts, but the point is after hundreds of matches, the other stats don't seem to be doing anything.
KITHUS
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 11:00 AM CDT
Actually my custom spider has high defense and speed and I found, as he leveled up, that he evades very frequently and can attack twice sometimes for each of the opponents attack.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
VANKRASN39
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 11:12 AM CDT
also what stat contributes toward gaining special attack charges?
FLAYED-ANGEL
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 12:31 PM CDT
>>also what stat contributes toward gaining special attack charges?
POWER mostly, I think, but there are other contributing factors on both sides; it seems to be gained based on how much damage is done (at least on the offense side of the equation), so it varies. On a good opening salvo, one can get enough special attack charges to do a Special Attack before your opponent (or you) can even react.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
POWER mostly, I think, but there are other contributing factors on both sides; it seems to be gained based on how much damage is done (at least on the offense side of the equation), so it varies. On a good opening salvo, one can get enough special attack charges to do a Special Attack before your opponent (or you) can even react.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
EULOGIA
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/05/2015 12:44 PM CDT
Insight is very powerful, and can buy you some excellent strategic openings, but a very high defense buys you a lot of breathing room in almost every conceivable situation. It saves you from crumpling.
-E
VANKRASN39
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 12:01 AM CDT
Further on the "Why don't the trainers seem to ever have RT for changing stances?" inquiry:
A hideously misshapen chimera is full of energy and won't accumulate more until it uses a special attack!
Through your bond with a hideously misshapen chimera, you sense near certainty that Estephan's golden hawk is using the Wolf style of combat! The Wolf style overpowers Turtle and Hare techniques but is weak against Serpent and Crane stances. You should switch stances quickly.
a majority of the stance messages I get are like this, where I have to then take 12 or so seconds to change stance. The masters, on the other hand, always seem to change automatically when they detect my beast's stance during an attack.
A hideously misshapen chimera is full of energy and won't accumulate more until it uses a special attack!
Through your bond with a hideously misshapen chimera, you sense near certainty that Estephan's golden hawk is using the Wolf style of combat! The Wolf style overpowers Turtle and Hare techniques but is weak against Serpent and Crane stances. You should switch stances quickly.
a majority of the stance messages I get are like this, where I have to then take 12 or so seconds to change stance. The masters, on the other hand, always seem to change automatically when they detect my beast's stance during an attack.
COLEMANJ
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 12:35 AM CDT
It may appear that way, but I can assure you, at least in the cases where I've battled, that they also have RT. Keep in mind, your beast sensed that it's USING the Wolf style. He could have been in Wolf stance for 15 seconds or longer.
KITHUS
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 07:27 AM CDT
Also remember that beasts with high insight have the chance to detect and automatically swap to the appropriate counter stance.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
VANKRASN39
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 08:21 AM CDT
>Also remember that beasts with high insight have the chance to detect and automatically swap to the appropriate counter stance.
yes, I'm well aware. I am asking about that one specific messaging that players get that it wouldn't seem that an NPC would get.
KITHUS
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 08:38 AM CDT
When you get that one specific message 9 times out of 10 by the time you swap your stance, your NPC opponent has already swapped theirs as well. Plan accordingly.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
VANKRASN39
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 09:37 AM CDT
....
Yes, and usually I'm still in RT from the last time I had to switch. I know how to play. I have made some legitimate observations. Obviously you have no agenda besides telling me I do not know how to play. This will be my last response to you on this issue.
KITHUS
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 10:31 AM CDT
Actually my "agenda" in this instance is trying to be helpful. I had much the same concerns when the arena was first released in Platinum. I spoke with Auchand about them at length. What I found was that NPC tamers tend to wait until the round of attacks and then swap immediately after if there is anything that indicates they are in an inferior position. What I found helped was skipping ahead of them in the order (wolf > hare > serpent > turtle > crane) when I realized I was in an inferior position to them.
To use your example:
Through your bond with a hideously misshapen chimera, you sense near certainty that Estephan's golden hawk is using the Wolf style of combat! The Wolf style overpowers Turtle and Hare techniques but is weak against Serpent and Crane stances. You should switch stances quickly.
For example purposes I am going to assume you were in Hare. Your first instinct would be to swap to Serpent (Using the order illustrated above) to counter Wolf. The problem is that while you are doing that Estephan probably just ordered his golden hawk into Hare to preemptively counter your switch. Instead you need to skip to the next step in the order, Turtle, which will likely then counter his new stance.
The fact of the matter is that the NPC trainers do have RT, just the same as PC trainers. The problem you are having is that you are using the same trigger (the attack round resolutions)to decide to change stances. The only time I have found that the NPC trainers won't change stances after an attack round is if both beasts miss and there is no way to be sure both players positively know who's in the right stance. So essentially they are always in round time the same exact times you are, they're just outplaying you.
All that said, I do tend to agree that Insight is the best stat to reduce the randomness of a spirit beast match in your favor. Though I have found that adding Insight to my spider has screwed me up sometimes as well. In the example above where I'm trying to stay ahead of the switches I can reasonably assume they are going to make, sometimes my spider will swap stances on her own in response to an attack and mess up my order. Not necessarily a problem because it doesn't cause RT but it can confused me just long enough for my opponents beast to get in a strong attack while I'm trying to remember what I wanted to do next.
Now remember, you aren't going to respond to me again. If we had a well reasoned conversation you might have to come to the same conclusion that I did. The NPC trainers aren't cheating. Auchand just programmed automated opponents that are smarter than me sometimes. That prompts the real scary question... How smart is Auchand?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
To use your example:
Through your bond with a hideously misshapen chimera, you sense near certainty that Estephan's golden hawk is using the Wolf style of combat! The Wolf style overpowers Turtle and Hare techniques but is weak against Serpent and Crane stances. You should switch stances quickly.
For example purposes I am going to assume you were in Hare. Your first instinct would be to swap to Serpent (Using the order illustrated above) to counter Wolf. The problem is that while you are doing that Estephan probably just ordered his golden hawk into Hare to preemptively counter your switch. Instead you need to skip to the next step in the order, Turtle, which will likely then counter his new stance.
The fact of the matter is that the NPC trainers do have RT, just the same as PC trainers. The problem you are having is that you are using the same trigger (the attack round resolutions)to decide to change stances. The only time I have found that the NPC trainers won't change stances after an attack round is if both beasts miss and there is no way to be sure both players positively know who's in the right stance. So essentially they are always in round time the same exact times you are, they're just outplaying you.
All that said, I do tend to agree that Insight is the best stat to reduce the randomness of a spirit beast match in your favor. Though I have found that adding Insight to my spider has screwed me up sometimes as well. In the example above where I'm trying to stay ahead of the switches I can reasonably assume they are going to make, sometimes my spider will swap stances on her own in response to an attack and mess up my order. Not necessarily a problem because it doesn't cause RT but it can confused me just long enough for my opponents beast to get in a strong attack while I'm trying to remember what I wanted to do next.
Now remember, you aren't going to respond to me again. If we had a well reasoned conversation you might have to come to the same conclusion that I did. The NPC trainers aren't cheating. Auchand just programmed automated opponents that are smarter than me sometimes. That prompts the real scary question... How smart is Auchand?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
EULOGIA
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 12:15 PM CDT
>>When you get that one specific message 9 times out of 10 by the time you swap your stance, your NPC opponent has already swapped theirs as well. <<
Or not! That's what's so unpredictable about the trainers.
Sometimes they stay in the wrong stance, often times they switch INTO the wrong stance, sometimes they change stance just as you change yours to adjust for your insight...
It's volatile! Throw in the human element and you are, in a sense, playing rock paper scissors. Trying to guess what "tells" your opponent is seeing and how they will adjust to them.
-E
FLAYED-ANGEL
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 05:00 PM CDT
Agreed, playing "advanced prediction" may work well against human opponents, but the reactions of NPC trainers seem to vary wildly and there's no foolproof way to predict what stance changes they've purposefully or automatically made. Sometimes switching into a advanced predictive stance doesn't always pay off, but sometimes it does -- it just depends on where the opponent is at -- so I don't find it to necessarily be any "better" against NPC trainers, personally, except in the general sense that you want to stay ahead of your opponent. For example, let's assume that both people have no RT and are waiting to react; if the trainer's beast triggers an auto-stance, and you react based on a perceived stance change, the trainer is still free to counter your counter with their unused RT while you're still stuck twiddling your thumbs for 7-13 seconds. This also applies to human opponents, of course, but it seems to me a bigger factor in NPC battles.
I've deffo had long batches of "catch up games" with NPC trainers, where we'll both keep switching to avoid (and in reaction to) the other's stance... until someone inevitably screws up or gets the jump via Insight. Unfortunately, the latter is usually them... but then, my beast has low Insight so it's a bit hard to separate that from the proclivities of the NPC trainers. Just another point in Insight's favor, I suppose.
This is why auto-stances are really good for NPC trainers but in some rare instances gum up human players (like switching to a bad stance, because between the time that you've starting inputting the command to switch and actually executed it, your beast has already auto-switched for you, and thus you switch inappropriately based on old information)... NPC trainers don't seem to have any built-in "human" reaction time, whereas human players do. They seem to react based on whatever criteria available at any millisecond, and react immediately to that. I suppose you could theoretically script battles heavily based on a similarly constructed AI, but... I suspect that would rightly bring heavy disapproval. And besides, what would be the fun or the point of that? The thrill of battling is in the decisions you make, and watching them pay off.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
I've deffo had long batches of "catch up games" with NPC trainers, where we'll both keep switching to avoid (and in reaction to) the other's stance... until someone inevitably screws up or gets the jump via Insight. Unfortunately, the latter is usually them... but then, my beast has low Insight so it's a bit hard to separate that from the proclivities of the NPC trainers. Just another point in Insight's favor, I suppose.
This is why auto-stances are really good for NPC trainers but in some rare instances gum up human players (like switching to a bad stance, because between the time that you've starting inputting the command to switch and actually executed it, your beast has already auto-switched for you, and thus you switch inappropriately based on old information)... NPC trainers don't seem to have any built-in "human" reaction time, whereas human players do. They seem to react based on whatever criteria available at any millisecond, and react immediately to that. I suppose you could theoretically script battles heavily based on a similarly constructed AI, but... I suspect that would rightly bring heavy disapproval. And besides, what would be the fun or the point of that? The thrill of battling is in the decisions you make, and watching them pay off.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
FLAYED-ANGEL
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 05:36 PM CDT
Speaking of stats, another oddity I've noticed is that beasts with low Speed may actually have a bit of an unusual advantage over beasts with high Speed in certain situations.
For example: if a beast has high Speed, it's theoretically possible that it might attack twice or even three times during the RT incurred from switching stances, based -- I assume -- on the RT formula worked out from the beast's comparative speeds. If you (with high Speed) switch to a beneficial stance and then your beast immediately attacks -- revealing its stance -- you're effectively caught helpless if your opponent either has no current RT or proceeds to auto-stance, allowing them to switch to an effective counter-stance while you're still stuck in RT. This often results in chains of counter-stances between both opponents, but also can unfortunately place the higher speed beast at a disadvantage inadvertently. A lower Speed beast, on the other hand, may take time for its attack(s) to actually "go off" and reveal its stance, if the other beast misses (and thus no stance revelation) in the meanwhile... which means that your RT has safely recuperated and you are able to react appropriately once again. This is, of course, dependent on the other beast's actions and stat spread as well, but theoretically the results are also based on the high Speed beast's ability to evade or the other beast's Accuracy, which might create a "false-positive" for predictive stance reaction.
If that makes any sense, heh.
This is exactly why I was a bigger fan of the previous iteration of Speed and its effectiveness in relation to RT, rather than the current iteration which seems to emphasize evasion; it meant that beasts with high Speed could actually switch in relative proportion to their basic attack rate, more-so than they currently can. I understand this was problematic in different ways, ie. beasts with low Speed were taking far to long to switch stances comparatively, but unfortunately the solution (the Speed boost that increases evasion) has created the unfortunate side-effect of creating more "whiffs" overall, which I suspect may throw off the balance of Special Attack energy generation and general stance prediction.
I'm not sure what an equitable solution would be, but I just thought I'd point out that particular aspect from my anecdotal experience as food for thought. Perhaps the rate of normal attacks could be equalized a bit more (which would also theoretically create slightly better Special Attack energy parity, unless such was intentional), and instead, more relative gain for Speed placed on RT reduction again. Also -- if I understand correctly, and I may not -- it's a bit off-kilter as it is, because hypothetically if a high Speed beast attacks at a higher rate, that doesn't necessarily equal an advantage in Special energy generation unless the other beast has low defensive capabilities; if the other beast has high evade or defense, it actually throws the advantage in their court, because they gain energy from defending at a rate equivalent to the higher Speed beast's attack rate... so it can sometimes work against them, I assume??
I dunno, Auchand is far more clever with these sorts of things, and I imagine it is incredibly difficult to balance the synergy of all the stats... but I have observed what seems to be an incredibly difficult-to-quantify disparity between Speed, attack rate, accuracy, evasion, reaction time, and round-time.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
For example: if a beast has high Speed, it's theoretically possible that it might attack twice or even three times during the RT incurred from switching stances, based -- I assume -- on the RT formula worked out from the beast's comparative speeds. If you (with high Speed) switch to a beneficial stance and then your beast immediately attacks -- revealing its stance -- you're effectively caught helpless if your opponent either has no current RT or proceeds to auto-stance, allowing them to switch to an effective counter-stance while you're still stuck in RT. This often results in chains of counter-stances between both opponents, but also can unfortunately place the higher speed beast at a disadvantage inadvertently. A lower Speed beast, on the other hand, may take time for its attack(s) to actually "go off" and reveal its stance, if the other beast misses (and thus no stance revelation) in the meanwhile... which means that your RT has safely recuperated and you are able to react appropriately once again. This is, of course, dependent on the other beast's actions and stat spread as well, but theoretically the results are also based on the high Speed beast's ability to evade or the other beast's Accuracy, which might create a "false-positive" for predictive stance reaction.
If that makes any sense, heh.
This is exactly why I was a bigger fan of the previous iteration of Speed and its effectiveness in relation to RT, rather than the current iteration which seems to emphasize evasion; it meant that beasts with high Speed could actually switch in relative proportion to their basic attack rate, more-so than they currently can. I understand this was problematic in different ways, ie. beasts with low Speed were taking far to long to switch stances comparatively, but unfortunately the solution (the Speed boost that increases evasion) has created the unfortunate side-effect of creating more "whiffs" overall, which I suspect may throw off the balance of Special Attack energy generation and general stance prediction.
I'm not sure what an equitable solution would be, but I just thought I'd point out that particular aspect from my anecdotal experience as food for thought. Perhaps the rate of normal attacks could be equalized a bit more (which would also theoretically create slightly better Special Attack energy parity, unless such was intentional), and instead, more relative gain for Speed placed on RT reduction again. Also -- if I understand correctly, and I may not -- it's a bit off-kilter as it is, because hypothetically if a high Speed beast attacks at a higher rate, that doesn't necessarily equal an advantage in Special energy generation unless the other beast has low defensive capabilities; if the other beast has high evade or defense, it actually throws the advantage in their court, because they gain energy from defending at a rate equivalent to the higher Speed beast's attack rate... so it can sometimes work against them, I assume??
I dunno, Auchand is far more clever with these sorts of things, and I imagine it is incredibly difficult to balance the synergy of all the stats... but I have observed what seems to be an incredibly difficult-to-quantify disparity between Speed, attack rate, accuracy, evasion, reaction time, and round-time.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
FLAYED-ANGEL
Re: unbalanced stats?
04/06/2015 06:04 PM CDT
Disclaimer also that the above theories are, again, purely anecdotal and would be difficult to substantiate with extensive testing and more knowledge of the internal workings, heh.
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
"Bring me your suffering. The rattle roar of broken bones. Bring me the riot in your heart. Angry, wild and raw. Bring it all. I am not afraid of the dark."
- mia hollow
