I'd go after 750, 775 and 799 (plus or minus).

Let sorcery be the first formal profession to explore life beyond the pale. After all. :)

Doug

>>I'll replace disease with pretty much anything, including the once a day donut-box creating spell.

This made me laugh, although that donut-box did sell for 15mil.

I do wonder if anyone has found an actual use for the spell in combat, seems unlikely but you never know.

Okay, besides disease:

I really like the adjacent room knockdown feature, but if I had to pick, quake would be traded for a CS based direct damage/crit based spell between 705 and 719. Using 719 in the bowels and most of the temple (and otf?) is at your own risk, and there aren't many upper level hunting grounds. Most of us train for a high CS in sorcerer circle, and we have limited options in direct damage spells that use casting strength. With 717 you get kill, run away or paralyze on a successful roll. With 711 the battle messaging is pretty bland (but I love the spell because I skin).

Either of the vacuum or unbalance flare tables would be fun.

Id probably take 710 out and replace it with a direct damage CS attack. 710 just takes too long to build up to use for anything other than fun.

Player of Malisai

I seldom use Maelstrom but I've seen younger sorcerers rely upon it quite heavily. It fills a niche for certain creatures that are either difficult to ward, or take too much mana to kill. I sometimes use the open version to soften a swarm. It's a very unique spell, long part of our history, and I'd be adamantly opposed to replacing it.

Plus, there's a painting of me sitting in the middle of a maelstrom hanging in my room. So, um, yeah. Don't touch Maelstrom. :)

~ Heathyr

>I almost mentioned in my initial post that Disease was off limits. Mostly because its too easy, and also because theoretically, its going to be improved one day.

>I think that, as it stands, I would replace Disintegrate. I love the flavor of the spell, but its simply not effective enough in my eyes. I would rather swap it out for something with crit levels to Boneshatter, not to mention one that can be enhanced by lores. Basically, a channeled CS based spell that could be enhanced by training and is actually worthwhile in crit killing enemies.

Not to be argumentative, but it's odd you almost placed one, relatively useless spell off limits because it was due for a future improvement, then chose the relatively useful spell in our arsenal, which is also said to be in some level of review, especially, as compared to bone shatter, which has been noted by NIR as being 'too powerful' and 'in need of tweaking.' Especially given the parameters of your initial post, stating that you can't give up one and change it to something, almost the same, but more powerful...

As for myself, I'd say our spells (ie disintegrate) need tweaking, I can't come up with one, other than possibly disease, that doesn't have moments of usefullness during a sorcerer's advancement.

Blood burst: especially now that you can get blood back is a great utility spell. If you ever hunted fire mages you truly understand.

mana disrupt: low level standard, high level finisher

corrupt essence: yes, I prefer old school forget, but that's cheating

phase: weightless items and supposedly a defensive advantage some day.

Disintigrae: Primary hunting spell on less magical critters after level...we'll say 30 since I was already about 90 when it was released in it's current form

mind jolt: garuanteed stun on anything stunable. useful for targets you want to sacrifice and shutting up annoying townsfolk.

eye spy: the illulsion shouldn't cause a real eye to be lost, should be able to follow and watch, but is key for our one best mass kill/crowd controll spell (evil eye)

limb disruption: Would love to do more with animated limbs, but for disabling otherwise dangerous physical critters, accept no substitute.

Quake: adjacent room knock downs, and more reliable than e-wave but, without the significant RT benifits.

Energy Maelstrom: especially now that we can focus it, is an amazing spell for lower level hunting, when DS is easy, manuevers are rare, but mana is low.

Pain: If it's old, physical, and dangerous, this is the best spell to deal with them efficiently. It's mana intensive at lower levels, but at cap it's one of my more commonly cast spells

Cloak of shadows: ....enough said

Balefire: Has it's uses, could be better, but we aren't supposed to be masters of bolting. used correctly, this spell is highly effective.

Scroll Infusion: sure, it's not a huge money maker for most of us like enchant item, but it's the reason I have more defensive buffs than I'll ever get around to using instead of always having to try to track down a statue.

Curse: ignoring Star, for those who aren't balefire fans, it's an unwardable TD drop. If anyone didn't use this heavily in lower levels, I clearly have a lot to learn from you and welcome the input.

Disease: yeah, it's a gimmick. It's mildly entertaining but useless...what profession doesn't have a useless spell or 2?

Evil Eye: Again, at lower levels it's only good for crowd control. At cap and beyond, it's the most effective and mana efficient killing spell for physical critters.

Torment: There were levels where I relied on 715 combined with 718. When you are uphunting the living, this is a great spell. It's fast acting, devistating, and nothing can hurt you when they're knocked on their can every 5-10 seconds.

DC: Yeah, it's been nerfed horrificly since the good old days. It's still amazing on the third floor of the temple, in OTF, and against any highly magical critter.

Implosion: This is probably the spell of ours I hate the most, because it's almost like cheating in my book, but against Elementals, it's about the best we have. Also great for clearing a room in a hurry...invasions and the like.

Minor summoning: Clearly needs tweaking, and it's a fresh enough topic that I won't waste my time or anyone else's rehashing it

Animate dead: see minor summoning. Both are useful and fit well with the profession, but need polish to make them great.

Planar Shift: Again, a heated topic at the moment, but it's a great spell, if possibly buggy at the moment with demon summoning rates/probability.

In short, we don't need a new spell, outside of what Doug mentioned, since those are empty slots. We need a little TLC for our existing, spell list to regain our former glory as masters of mayhem. Nothing's wrong with the list itself. Just it's current manifestation that leaves us secondary to Empaths as killing machines.

--Jurp

>>>In short, we don't need a new spell, outside of what Doug mentioned, since those are empty slots. We need a little TLC for our existing, spell list to regain our former glory as masters of mayhem. Nothing's wrong with the list itself. Just it's current manifestation that leaves us secondary to Empaths as killing machines.

I agree, but with one exception. I'm not especially attached to Disintegrate. In theory it's nice, but in practice Mana Disrupt is almost always more effective. This is true for two reasons. One, the hidden damage of Mana Disrupt makes it more deadly than it appears; and two, it costs less than half the mana of Disintegrate to cast. Two casts of Mana Disrupt are almost always superior to one cast of Disintegrate, for 1 less mana.

Not only that, but Disintegrate is, quite simply, boring.

One of the things that made sorcerers the most feared profession (way back when) was the sheer shock and awe of our spells. Think Dark Catalyst. Even Mana Disrupt (the old version) was fearsome to behold. Disintegrate? Okay, it does some impressive damage, sometimes, maybe. If they'd made it terrifying, like the old slate wands (in spite of the low apparent damage), at least it would have some S&A value. But as it stands, I almost always opt for good ole Mana Disrupt.

I have to amend this by saying Mana Disrupt seemed much more effective for me when I was a brawler, and could channel empty-handed in offensive. But since the Voln/UAC changes, I reluctantly decided to drop brawling in favor of a runestaff [a decision I don't regret, but accepted certain sacrifices for]. Even holding a runestaff, however, channeling in offensive makes Mana Disrupt a somewhat more effective. The trade-off, of course, is not being able to fight in guarded anymore. So I'm not sure it's anything to celebrate, but at least the option is available.

How about we ditch Disintegrate, bring back slate wands (I still have a bunch in my locker) and fill the empty slot with something we can really use, like a mana tap of some kind. Let's revive Mana Disrupt by adding a lore element, so we can once again see the light of day through the center of our opponents' bodies.

~ Heathyr

>You can't replace it with a spell that accomplishes a similar effect (so no replacing Corrupt Essence with an old-school Forget style spell). Basically, you are giving up the "niche" provided by the spell so that you can have a spell that provides a different niche. In other words, no "upgrading" spells.

I'm still pretty sure you are breaking your own rules by replacing an instant damage spell for...a better instant damage spell, but oh well.

As for the rest, yes, disintigrate needs an uptweak, boneshatter likely a downtweak, as was suggested by NIR scarcely a month ago.

Beyond that, I suppose I could deal with loosing quake if it were replaced by a good attack spell, but then, why? For 2 more mana you can use pain, which may not have the Shock & Awe quality, but it's hard to argue it isn't effective. Of course, it lacks criticals, so there is room for that improvement. But then, fixing disintigrate is far simpler, and I really would like to see those old slate wand crits back.

--Jurp

>pain has its purpose, a new spell with crits would fill a hole.

Agree on the first part. Confused on the second. Where's the 'hole?' DC has amazing crits assuming the correct usage, and honestly even not. I crit kill physical critters accidentally with DC routinely. MD and disintigrate both have crits, they just need to be updated/modified/tweaked to come in line with current standards/methodology by adding a lore componant to increase their effectiveness.

I'm not saying we don't need help. Quite the contrary, a month or 2 ago I made it clear that I feel we do. My point is that a new spell isn't the answer. Our spells, at their core are fine. They're just a decade out of date. A few minor tweaks and all is well, as opposed to having to come up with an entirelly new spell...one that wizards and whomever else will debate ad naseum better fits in their profession for whatever reasons, GMs will have to come up with a whole new set of verbaige for damage results, etc...etc...etc. All of which only delays the entire process.

--Jurp

>And all I can say on the subject of whether I'm breaking my own rules or not . . . what I WANT is a low-level crit-heavy CS spell. While both Disintegrate and Boneshatter can deal damage and can do crit-deaths, I consider them virtually nothing alike. I'd rather have something that crits frequently with far less damage than something like Disintegrate, which does (sort of) high damage with poor crit potential. If I had to sacrifice a huge amount of Disintegrate's damage potential for an increase in crit potential, I'd do it. Thats why I don't consider it an upgrade, because I think they fill entirely different roles. I don't want Disintegrate 2.0 (actually, I do because I don't want to lose Disintegrate, but within the confines of my question, I want something that barely resembles 705)

I'll buy that. Not 100% in agreement, but I believe I have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I still shy away from the ever present boneshatter comparison. Reality is, or at least history shows us that, Boneshatter will get nerfed long before disintigrate is brought to it's level. A compramise somewhere in between for both may be possible, especially since Simu seems to have gone to teams in lieu of solo gurus over these matters.

>A lot of our spells are very redundant because we have so many disablers, but each of the disablers has its own specific niche

Well put, and a significantly more succinct than my earlier post.

--Jurp

705 needs to be reworked, its simply not worth using. Wow i killed the critter in 5 casts instead of 6 i would have used with MD. Simply not worth it. if the spell killed in 3 then id use it.

There are two situations i use 705

1) end of hunt when im wasting mana because i have plenty of time on my spells and im heading back to rest

1) When there is not a trashcan around and too many people i dont want to bug with an illusion void

Player of Malisai

While not capped im at a decent level, if the answer to 705 being good is wait until post cap and hunt a specific type of creature.........

I mean its fine with a spell like DC which was designed to destroy a specific subtype, but that spell works at all levels. 705 is at a great spell level to be used as a main hunting spell, but it apparently fails until post cap and hunting in one area.

Player of Malisai

>Well in fairness, if there is one thing 705 does well, it's damaging non-corporeal undead. So it's true it does have a niche, albeit a small one.

And I think thats why 705 was my choice. I'd much rather have a mid-range CS spell that was particularly effective on all enemies than one that is only particularly effective against non-corp undead and/or post-cap.

That said though, my assessment of 705 is the same as that of 702 and 716. I can't hate it too bad as long as I know that it is likely going to be improved at some point.

how are you getting 200 damage per? whats your endroll look like?

unless its non-corp i rarely see over 100, most time i can do very very nearly as much with 702, might take me a single cast more.

Player of Malisai

A huge endroll is really the key to 705, moreso than any other sorcerous attack. It's damage potential is relatively high if you're post-cap and ridiculously optimized, but a baseline build will never get anywhere near that potential and baseline is where the problem exists.

I just had a quick search through some of my Plat sorcerer's logs, and -- against the right targets, because there are obviously critters to use and not use 705 on -- I see him regularly doing damage in the 150+ range from guarded stance. I'm pretty sure he'd top 200 regularly if I channelled from offensive, but I rarely bother because he doesn't really need to. He's casting with a CS anywhere from +540 to +560, depending on how I set him up, and that's nowhere near a baseline build. So it's possible to make 705 work pretty nicely, but only if your character's built in an almost game-breaking way to start with, and sorcerers don't need much help at cap. It's the mid-game levels where we have the most problems, and no one in those levels is endrolling between 250 - 300 against a like-level target.

Dave, Brandain's Bard

>While not capped im at a decent level, if the answer to 705 being good is wait until post cap and hunt a specific type of creature.........

and for the x hundredth time I never said the spell doesn't need fixing...it does. Moving on...

>how are you getting 200 damage per? whats your endroll look like?

For the sake of making both points, based on a quick (non-scientific) hunt...Endrolls less than 200 did ~100 damage. Anything over 220 was doing 130-170. And it was the rolls upwards of 250 doing 200+ all guarded, with right hand open (brawl+shield) I hated statistics in college so I don't have the ambition to collect and analyze a proper sample.

>A huge endroll is really the key to 705, moreso than any other sorcerous attack. It's damage potential is relatively high if you're post-cap and ridiculously optimized, but a baseline build will never get anywhere near that potential and baseline is where the problem exists\

precisely. Hence my statement in my post where I said 'give it time.' Perhance I didn't say just how much time you had to give it...but then AGAIN, see my initial statement above...

>Perhaps then a review of the minimum endrolls needed to begin to see some of the large damage amounts would be something else that could be looked at when the lore tie-ins are being considered.

ding ding ding. The spell isn't great...until cap or well beyond. It needs work. No one is arguing that point including NsIR...well we are...but more or less everyone's saying the same thing a different way and some are trying to find the debate...

The only point I've troed to make is that we don't need a whole new spell, but a modification of the current one's effectiveness.

--Jurp

PS. Next topic? Seems this particular horse has been beaten to death unless we get NIR traction.

>The only point I've troed to make is that we don't need a whole new spell, but a modification of the current one's effectiveness.

We are definitely in complete agreement here.

>>And, some form of synergy; if a given sorc had enough necro lore to cast the bolt version of 705, AND met a minimum threshold of demon lore (either .5x, or a rank threshold, 50 ranks, for example), the bolt version would inflict some sort of lasting effect, either similar to the 305 holy bolt recurring holy flares, or even better (in mu opinion, of course) some sort of slow effect on the target.

A few months ago, I suggested a cumulative effect, where casting the CS version (or a theoretical AS version) would surround the target with a "grey haze" of some sort. This would increase the crit modifier and damage of subsequent casts of the same spell. I actually had a whole slew of synergy effects. One was that the AS bolt could "detonate" the CS haze for a one time damage cycle, one was that multiple CS/AS casts would cause the haze which increased damage (and could potentially stack), and then a multi-hit potential, where the beam could richochet off the first target and hit a second.

Haven't read up recently on this thread but had a suggestion;

Augment 'slow'er sorcerer spells with balefire bolt

ex: target is diseased, followed by balefire bolt yields 'disease' flare to spell

Balefire can have # of flares at the same time from the sorcerer pool including but not limited to;
701, 703, 704, 710, 711, 715, 715 (nightmare specific), 716, 718, 720 (non-focused), etc

Mixing x with y yield 'rare' or 'strange' flares (ex: 701 + 716 + 713 creates oozing acid puss that hits the whole room)

This gives sorcerers a reason to use the 'slower' spells and add new/interesting/unique quirks without eliminating a current spell.