Some rapid fire answers for you to consider before making the decision to go to level 20 and higher:

1 - For a warmage there's very little difference between setting stats for cap or setting stats for power now. Your stats are fine as is!

2 - You're going to convert TPs, no need to worry about that. It's inevitable for nearly all professions.

3 - IMO your spare 280 PTPs should be going straight to 10 ranks of Combat Maneuvers to increase your AS.

4 - Almost every build of almost every profession has to be selective with what it hunts, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

5 - ...but with that said, experiment with 912 since because it can force creatures to more offensive stances. The downside is that it costs more than 410/909 while also having less reliable knockdown, but you might find that it opens up some creatures that you thought you needed to avoid.

6 - Things will get better when you learn 425 (sacrifice pretty much anything to learn it right at level 25, IMO), since it gives you +25 AS.

---

https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara

Oh, wow. Thanks for the super fast responses! It sounds like largely good news, too. :-D

<<1 - For a warmage there's very little difference between setting stats for cap or setting stats for power now. Your stats are fine as is!

That's awesome news! I'm glad the for-cap stats aren't going to cripple him. When I picked back up years ago and used the GS3->GS4 fixstats for my warrior to set him for cap, he went being very playable and fun (because he was very not-for-cap placed) to being almost entirely dependent on groups now that I "fixed" him for cap stats. Is there something particular to the warmage builds that make them more resilient to cap-based stat placement? I'm also still curious about the crux of the debate. Since the language seems to be "for cap" versus "for max TPs", does that actually mean that stat placement for cap results in fewer TPs over the lifetime, or just fewer earlier?

<<2 - You're going to convert TPs, no need to worry about that. It's inevitable for nearly all professions.
<<3 - IMO your spare 280 PTPs should be going straight to 10 ranks of Combat Maneuvers to increase your AS.

Phew. That's also good to hear. I didn't love the idea of all those TPs just sitting there. I'll pick up the CMAN ranks tonight. Since he just broke 19, I have a bit of time to get a feel for it before I make the final pure/warmage call at 20. Should I be keeping Combat Maneuvers in my regular training regimen on some frequency, or park it at 10 ranks?

<<5 - ...but with that said, experiment with 912 since because it can force creatures to more offensive stances. The downside is that it costs more than 410/909 while also having less reliable knockdown, but you might find that it opens up some creatures that you thought you needed to avoid.

I believe I've played with 912 a little bit, but not very often. I'll have to try it out a few more times. Since I'm mostly burning mana on 506, it's usually not a problem in hunts. Lately I've found myself trying to round out a hunt with spells or wands because I pick up boxes and end up encumbered pretty quickly, but I can probably fix that with some better inventory management or black crystals until I get 511.

<<6 - Things will get better when you learn 425 (sacrifice pretty much anything to learn it right at level 25, IMO), since it gives you +25 AS.

+25 AS sounds amazing! At this point, I'd need to do slightly more than 2x in MnE to get it at 25. I could drop a few ranks of Wizard Base, though, to pick it up at 25. I honestly don't use much over 913. Duplicate always appealed to me (who doesn't love free wands?) but I can probably live without that for a while since I don't rely on wands except when I'm doing the over encumbered hunt-o-shame because I'm a huge packrat.

<<Also, with the change to 502 it is easier to hunt critters that can be stunned, give it a shot.

I noticed how handy 502 can be and have occasionally used that when I'm trying to close out a hunt but can't swing anymore (see aforementioned box hoarding). I can definitely see that being useful as an opener before melee, too. I'll have to see about incorporating that!

<<Welcome back, good luck and have fun.

Thanks! It's great to be back. I've definitely missed it.


I'm not sure where I was going with Lore training. I'm sure the Air lore was for the Tonis Bolt benefits, but I can't for the life of me remember why I have a lone rank of Earth lore. Is there some benefit that comes with having a rank in that?

Should I be pushing harder to pick up the requisite 20 ranks of Air for Tonis Bolt, or are lores less of a concern for slashy smashy mages?

Also, as a very very long-term goal, I'd fancied the idea of him being able to enchant someday. Is that possible with much of his TPs being spend on things like THW and CMAN that he'll struggle to get the Mana Control and stuff necessary to viably enchant in later life?

Thanks again for taking time to answer my wall-of-text. As much as I love the game, the mechanics, and the systems that ruined me for all other text-based games, the players are what I have missed the most. :-)

>>That's awesome news! I'm glad the for-cap stats aren't going to cripple him. When I picked back up years ago and used the GS3->GS4 fixstats for my warrior to set him for cap, he went being very playable and fun (because he was very not-for-cap placed) to being almost entirely dependent on groups now that I "fixed" him for cap stats. Is there something particular to the warmage builds that make them more resilient to cap-based stat placement?

Basically, setting stats for cap with any profession means low starting stats in what's important to the archetype of that profession and high starting stats in what's less important.

So setting a warrior's stats for cap would mean low Strength (among other things) early on, which makes early levels painful and goes a long way to explain your experience. But setting a wizard's stats for cap would mean high Strength, which doesn't help the archetype of a pure wizard (other than encumbrance) but fits right with in a warmage.



>>I'm also still curious about the crux of the debate. Since the language seems to be "for cap" versus "for max TPs", does that actually mean that stat placement for cap results in fewer TPs over the lifetime, or just fewer earlier?

Fewer TPs from 0 to 99, and then after cap everyone gains TPs at the same rate regardless of stats. The benefit of stat placement for cap is ending up with a higher stat total overall.


>>Should I be keeping Combat Maneuvers in my regular training regimen on some frequency, or park it at 10 ranks?

Every 2 ranks of CM gives +1 AS. It's expensive, but I say fit it in as you can!


>>Should I be pushing harder to pick up the requisite 20 ranks of Air for Tonis Bolt, or are lores less of a concern for slashy smashy mages?

If anything, Air lore is even more important for a warmage than usual. Keep training it until you find the threshold you need for 1 second swings.


>Also, as a very very long-term goal, I'd fancied the idea of him being able to enchant someday. Is that possible with much of his TPs being spend on things like THW and CMAN that he'll struggle to get the Mana Control and stuff necessary to viably enchant in later life?

My warmage has been 2x MIU, 1x AS, 1x EMC, and 1x wizard base for life and I've never felt like there was something she couldn't enchant that she "should" have been able to. If I remember right, she was able to enchant HCW weapons and HCP armor around 45.

---

https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara

CM is expensive, and only gives +1AS per two ranks...

...whereas if you are still below 20th level, each rank of the weapon skill is still giving you +4 or +5 AS (depending on if you are in the second decade [ranks 11-20 == +4/] or still in the first [ranks 1-10 == +5/]).

That being said, if you 'picked up 10 ranks of CM', you added +5. If you can add that 11th rank, you will be at +6, because 11/2 = 5.5 = 6, in GemStone math.

.

TL:DR version: always end your CM rank count on an odd rank, to take advantage of rounding.

.

.

If you're a weapon-swinging mage, and that's your goal, be entirely unconcerned about picking up the 2x in MIU/AS/EMC/whatever. Single, sure, they're cheap, but the second ranks start adding up. You Am Weapon Swinger! Put your points into weapon AS, and tidy up the spellcasting stuff when you need it (like at 25th level when/if you get Enchant/925).

>I haven't missed anything I gave up in the 900 circle yet, and I've had a blast whacking at war trolls. It seemed odd that they (level 18) were so trivial, but hill trolls (level 16) were a pain. I made a quick run by Fire Cats and Fire Rats tonight, though, and he absolutely destroyed them - that felt awesome.

Yes! I think you'll find a lot of things that warmages just walk all over--but there'll also be some rarities that you'll barely be able to touch. In my perspective, I'd say that overall my warmage had to avoid fewer enemies than my other characters. Either that or it's just that some of the ones she didn't have to avoid really stuck out, like shan and stone sentinels/banshees, because they were nightmarish to my others and walks in the park for her.




>I did notice that I'm going to have trouble being 2x MIU, 1x AS, 1x EMC, right now. I'm assuming these are things that I can true-up to those figures later on, though. Is that about right?

Yes! ...but I also realized something, so call it a quick correction to my last post. I didn't train Spell Aiming at all, neglecting bolts and relying on Earthen Fury as my backup for enemies I couldn't hit with a weapon. So you're more strained on TPs than I was.

But since we're talking about the context of wanting to enchant... I honestly don't think you'll have trouble unless you're trying to work with high end gear, but if you do run into trouble, then you could consider leaving EMC at 25 (24 = perfect sharing, 25 = 1 mana spellup a day) and focusing on MIU and AS. Research here...

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Enchanting/view/2393

...shows that AS and MIU are more cost-effective to improve enchanting than EMC.



>This looks like ~46 ranks of Air Lore to get the 1s RT from 506 for me. That's going to be a while since I'm so tight on TPs at this point. I'm guessing this is where the stats-for-cap vs. Max TPs actually come in - having the TPs to keep up with stuff early on.

I think 46 was the threshold for me too, using a maul as an aelotoi. I don't think I got to 1 second swings until the mid-40s, if I remember, but I did rush ASAP to 2 second swings.
As for TPs, I personally don't think it's all that big a deal. Someone setting for higher TPs is probably only getting 3 MTPs more per level (and 1-2 PTPs less). It does add up, but I also find you catch up before you know it.

---

https://gswiki.play.net/Leafiara

<you don't really care about the damage of the weapon... what you care about is the flares (just like Bards)

Not entirely true, you want the most powerful weapon you can swing in 1 second. Mauls tend to be favored for this reason, its easy to get down to 1 second.

>>Yes! ...but I also realized something, so call it a quick correction to my last post. I didn't train Spell Aiming at all, neglecting bolts and relying on Earthen Fury as my backup for enemies I couldn't hit with a weapon. So you're more strained on TPs than I was.

I really hated to let go of the higher-than-melee bolt AS (especially since DS vs bolts is lower for most monsters), but when I thought about it, this didn't make sense for a blade-slinging war-mage. I sacrificed that Spell Aiming training and have only missed it slightly. (It was great to blast a monster who happened to hit me with a huge bolt after they'd gone to defensive) The other ranks have meant some extra mana, but that's not huge yet. I haven't functionally missed the bolts, and here's what his skills look like now at 20 trains:

Skill Name	Current Bonus	Current Ranks
Combat Maneuvers...................	50	10
Two-Handed Weapons.................	96	22
Physical Fitness...................	93	21
Arcane Symbols.....................	93	21
Magic Item Use.....................	130	35
Harness Power......................	93	21
Elemental Mana Control.............	86	19
Elemental Lore - Air...............	93	21
Elemental Lore - Earth.............	5	1
Survival...........................	54	11
Perception.........................	30	6
Climbing...........................	35	7
Swimming...........................	35	7
First Aid..........................	56	11
Major Elemental....................		9
Minor Elemental....................		20
Wizard.............................		15

I've had great luck with fire cats/fire rats/striped warcats. Speaking of, though...

>>If you are not already doing it (I forget if it was mentioned in your original post) I also recommend alternating First Aid and Survival (.5x level) training.
>>Pelts can be a great source of income (my mainstay over the years) and if you are hunting fire rats/cats you may be surprised how quickly it adds up.

I managed about .5x+ in First Aid and Survival, but still haven't been able to skin anything. Not the fire cats/rats/striped warcats, or even the trolls I sometimes hunt mainly for their loot. Is it worth investing anything in FA/Survival if I can only manage this rate? Especially if those TPs can go toward 3x spells or extra Swim/Climb or something?

Also, I looked over the CMANs available, is it worth investing in any particular CMAN training with my paltry .5x? None of them looked especially amazing, but I'd be happy to be wrong and be able to improve my combat with something at about 10 ranks of CMANs.

Similarly, I haven't made a society choice. Deep down, I lean toward Voln (because this character plays like a "good guy" most of the time) but being a magic metal weapon-user, having to beg for Voln bless all the time (an experience I already had ages ago with the warrior) seems lame. I'm debating whether it's worth sacrificing a mild preference in RP for the functionality of the other society over Voln for extra mana/AS, when mana isn't a huge factor in hunts. Does anyone have experience with the different societies as bash-y type mages?

Just for laughs, here is what I ended up with as a war mage. The massive investment in MnE is because I decided to go with a CS based spell, 415,
as a supplement to weapon swinging. (Never bothered with spell aiming). My current CS with 415 is 510, which will hit most enemies fairly hard. Attuned to Earth.
Cmans are feint and disarm ... pretty standard ... and swinging a 7x perfect maul in 1 second. Wearing 7x HCP double leather.

Up until cap, I had never converted any TPs. Maximum efficiency. But then, I hit the CMan/THW/PF limit and ran out of things to do with my PTPs. Started converting.
Currently, I have some PTPs saved up because I haven't quite decided what I want to do with them. Probably more spell ranks instead of lores.

>skill
Gwenievierre (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 70 15
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 160 60
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 149 49
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 149 49
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 170 70

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 60

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 95

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 60
Training Points: 649 Phy 0 Mnt (338 Phy converted to Mnt)