It's been roughly 11 years and I see a great many changes. Lores seemingly factor into so many things, and these 'runestaffs' appear almost commonplace. I was a conventional stance dance, lightning bolt wizard back in the day, but I'm sure a lot of the mechanics have been altered to some extent. Is bolting still a viable tactic past 50 onward, what are the major alternatives, and which path is generally cheaper points-wise? And while I'm at it, I see a lot of new effects/properties on wizard weapons/gear like 'enhancives', 'enbsorcells', 'max light', etc..other than the obvious boosts to primary stats, which effects and gear are the most useful?
Thank you
XANIDOS777
THROGG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/24/2015 05:21 PM CDT
It is impossible to answer your question until we see what the changes to rapid fire and haste entail.
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/24/2015 06:38 PM CDT
Well bolting will certainly be viable, I would think. It's the traditional wizard spec. Now whether viable=fun is up to the individual.
Wizards no longer use swords and shields for defense. Runestaves basically allow you to concentrate your training into magical skills and not lose out defensively.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Runestaff
'Max light' Just means something cannot be lightened any further by merchants (which there are many more of, per capita, compared to the old days).
Lores is a broad topic and more than I'm willing to try and answer in a single post. But basically,
Earth: randomized defenses that may help you (or not).
Air: Helps haste and disk space and not a whole lot else (that matters).
Fire: A couple nice gains, especially 2x at cap, but that's about to change so... <shrug>
Water: Looks like that's gonna be the enchant-bot lore. 925 changes haven't gone live yet though.
Enhancives is another broad range of things that boils down to gear that has bonuses to stand and/or skills.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Enhancives
Ensorcell is basically a CS/TD/FLaring version of enchanting that sorcerers can do. And is much much better in terms of silver/time/nuisance/risk/etc...
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/735
Also, the wiki is a thing as you've probably gathered from my links. That'll be your goto for most information. Also might want to look into lich (is that ok to say on the boards? If not, feel free to edit this part out)
ZENDADA
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/24/2015 06:52 PM CDT
Welcome back! I play a warmage and am having a blast.
There are some changes are coming to the spells Haste, Immolate, and Rapid Fire. I wouldn't worry about them too much.
The GSWiki has tons of information you can use. Here is a link to "A beginners guide toplaying a wizard".
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/A_beginner%27s_guide_to_playing_a_wizard
The wiki also has info on the other questions you've asked about.
You also may want to get a hold of the Mentors. There should be a mansion in every starting town where you can ring a bell to ask for assistance. Mentors are made up of players very knowledgeable about the game.
Good luck and have fun!
Chad, player of a few
There are some changes are coming to the spells Haste, Immolate, and Rapid Fire. I wouldn't worry about them too much.
The GSWiki has tons of information you can use. Here is a link to "A beginners guide toplaying a wizard".
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/A_beginner%27s_guide_to_playing_a_wizard
The wiki also has info on the other questions you've asked about.
You also may want to get a hold of the Mentors. There should be a mansion in every starting town where you can ring a bell to ask for assistance. Mentors are made up of players very knowledgeable about the game.
Good luck and have fun!
Chad, player of a few
XANIDOS777
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 05:44 PM CDT
Thanks for the responses and links. Yes, I was made aware of the wiki and Lich by an old acquaintance (I stumbled into by accident after a couple days back, one of the few I've recognized that stayed), and know about the changes being considered to certain key spells. Perhaps I was hoping someone had a little more insight into what direction the developers are leaning so I could perhaps plan a training path more effectively around it. It's not a huge deal, I can always adjust to whatever comes.
The fact we no longer need blade nor shield training is very interesting, as is the factoring in of lore ranks to so many things. One thing I am curious about though...looking down the cman list it looks like we have precious little to choose from and what we do have is rather unimpressive. Is combat maneuvers still a skill worth training in at all (i.e. once you get into areas like Darkstone and higher, will it actually save your butt once in a while if you train in it say, for example, 1x)?
Thanks again
The fact we no longer need blade nor shield training is very interesting, as is the factoring in of lore ranks to so many things. One thing I am curious about though...looking down the cman list it looks like we have precious little to choose from and what we do have is rather unimpressive. Is combat maneuvers still a skill worth training in at all (i.e. once you get into areas like Darkstone and higher, will it actually save your butt once in a while if you train in it say, for example, 1x)?
Thanks again
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 08:01 PM CDT
As a returning player, I wouldn't worry too much about the changes. So much is new to you, it's not as if you've spent years developing a specific style that is now being drastically altered. You'll have to adjust no matter what. So in that sense, you have an advantage!
When it comes to lore skills, the conventional wisdom up until the ELR (which is brand new, obviously) was 24 ranks in air lore and forget about lore until post-cap. I'm not sure anyone is in a position to advise you on lore training post-ELR. So all you can really do is look through the lore additions and choose whatever sounds appealing to you. I'm sure if you had any specific questions at that point, other players would be more than happy to provide their thoughts on the relative strengths of various lore skills.
Runestaves are a great addition. They're designed sort of like redux as far as training goes: train like a magic user and you'll find a runestaff provides adequate defense. You can also get some cool bells and whistles like the old elemental flares, and some new effects like nerve flares, acuity flares, mana flares, ensorcel flares, and enhancements.
Enhancives are a nice addition, too. They boost stats and skills, but require upkeep. The upkeep is mostly done via the adventurer's guild, which is the GS "quest" system, for lack of a better term. You take tasks from the guild such as kill X number of a certain monster, or recover a lost piece of jewelry, etc. In exchange you receive experience, silver, and bounty points. The points may be exchanged for various rewards, including recharging enhancive items. The upkeep can become a significant burden, but the buffs are powerful - up to 50 points to a skill or 40 points to a stat.
Combat maneuvers is a bit of a question mark. I suspect it actually does very little as far as maneuver avoidance goes. But others swear by it. I'm not aware of any definitive evidence either way, which is generally reason enough for me to pass on an expensive physical skill as a caster!
~Taverkin
When it comes to lore skills, the conventional wisdom up until the ELR (which is brand new, obviously) was 24 ranks in air lore and forget about lore until post-cap. I'm not sure anyone is in a position to advise you on lore training post-ELR. So all you can really do is look through the lore additions and choose whatever sounds appealing to you. I'm sure if you had any specific questions at that point, other players would be more than happy to provide their thoughts on the relative strengths of various lore skills.
Runestaves are a great addition. They're designed sort of like redux as far as training goes: train like a magic user and you'll find a runestaff provides adequate defense. You can also get some cool bells and whistles like the old elemental flares, and some new effects like nerve flares, acuity flares, mana flares, ensorcel flares, and enhancements.
Enhancives are a nice addition, too. They boost stats and skills, but require upkeep. The upkeep is mostly done via the adventurer's guild, which is the GS "quest" system, for lack of a better term. You take tasks from the guild such as kill X number of a certain monster, or recover a lost piece of jewelry, etc. In exchange you receive experience, silver, and bounty points. The points may be exchanged for various rewards, including recharging enhancive items. The upkeep can become a significant burden, but the buffs are powerful - up to 50 points to a skill or 40 points to a stat.
Combat maneuvers is a bit of a question mark. I suspect it actually does very little as far as maneuver avoidance goes. But others swear by it. I'm not aware of any definitive evidence either way, which is generally reason enough for me to pass on an expensive physical skill as a caster!
~Taverkin
DOUG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 08:39 PM CDT
>>I'm not sure anyone is in a position to advise you
Shoot for 50 ranks in each, at 1.5x cap (around 10.5M experience). This type of training path will put a noticeable (but survivable) pinch on your spell training plans.
Favorites to train in first are likely to be EL:A and EL:E. I'd recommend .5X in each of these, until core training is complete, then push on to the others post cap.
EL:W is going to have some interesting side effects, but in aggregate they're not all that fantastic.
EL:F is. . . well, I suspect it's going down in terms of popularity.
If you do the 50/4 splits, you can adjust relatively easily even between fix skills. Gives you pretty good flexibility.
As you go along, you can easily turn to a 'focus' on one or two elements, if that suddenly becomes a goal.
Doug
Shoot for 50 ranks in each, at 1.5x cap (around 10.5M experience). This type of training path will put a noticeable (but survivable) pinch on your spell training plans.
Favorites to train in first are likely to be EL:A and EL:E. I'd recommend .5X in each of these, until core training is complete, then push on to the others post cap.
EL:W is going to have some interesting side effects, but in aggregate they're not all that fantastic.
EL:F is. . . well, I suspect it's going down in terms of popularity.
If you do the 50/4 splits, you can adjust relatively easily even between fix skills. Gives you pretty good flexibility.
As you go along, you can easily turn to a 'focus' on one or two elements, if that suddenly becomes a goal.
Doug
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 10:09 PM CDT
>Combat maneuvers is a bit of a question mark. I suspect it actually does very little as far as maneuver avoidance goes. But others swear by it. I'm not aware of any definitive evidence either way, which is generally reason enough for me to pass on an expensive physical skill as a caster!
Since you brought it up, I actually tested it a bit on my character with a nerve staff. Going from 0 CM ranks to 8 ranks (via the nerve staff flare) resulted in a +8 on his CML defense. That's actually better than I expected. His chances of dodging were still incredibly pitiful, but interesting result, none-the-less.
I can't imagine this holds true throughout the game though, or fully singled pures at cap would have +100 CML defense? If it was that effective I have to imagine people would be espousing it more strongly so there is probably diminishing returns in there.
As for the OP's question about Cmans that are worth getting. Common wisdom is either you get the one that boosts your CML defense directly (Cdefense?) or disarm. Getting your runestaff disarmed is a serious problem later on and training in disarm makes it harder for you to BE disarmed (+15/disarm rank).
ZENDADA
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 10:17 PM CDT
I put together some tables that show the benefits of training each lore .5x, 1x, and 2x. You can find them under Magic Spells/Systems, Magic Systems, Elemental Lore Training Breakdown. There may have been one or two updates that were not included but they do include the vast majority of all the Elemental Lore benefits for all the spells available to the wizard.
DRUMPEL has put together a nifty spreadsheet you can enter your lore goals into that shows you the benefits. You can find that under Wizards, Developer's Corner - Wizards, Elemental Lore Spreadsheet updated status. Really nice work.
For my warmage I plan on a combination of Air and Earth lore. Air mainly for Haste and Earth mainly for defense, the combination providing benefits to Sandstorm.
Chad, player of a few
DRUMPEL has put together a nifty spreadsheet you can enter your lore goals into that shows you the benefits. You can find that under Wizards, Developer's Corner - Wizards, Elemental Lore Spreadsheet updated status. Really nice work.
For my warmage I plan on a combination of Air and Earth lore. Air mainly for Haste and Earth mainly for defense, the combination providing benefits to Sandstorm.
Chad, player of a few
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 10:23 PM CDT
It's +1 CML point for each Rank of CMANs trained and +15 CML points for each rank trained in a specific maneuver against the same maneuver (so getting the 1st rank of Disarm will give you 15 points of additional CML defense against being disarmed). Each rank of Cunning Defense adds 3 points of CML defense (so training 5 ranks in Cunning Defense is like training 1 rank in all CMANs for defensive purposes).
As a pure, being fully trained in CMANs (1x) at cap will help your CMAN defense some, but you will still be weak to CMAN attacks in general.
Unless you are a warmage (so training in CMANs for additional AS and for feint) you will generally do much better putting those training points into spells that you can use or related skills until sometime after cap.
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
As a pure, being fully trained in CMANs (1x) at cap will help your CMAN defense some, but you will still be weak to CMAN attacks in general.
Unless you are a warmage (so training in CMANs for additional AS and for feint) you will generally do much better putting those training points into spells that you can use or related skills until sometime after cap.
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 10:51 PM CDT
Wow so if you don't train in Cman, they literally cannot miss you? God that's lame.
THROGG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 11:20 PM CDT
They can miss you; offensive maneuvers are never 100%. Umm, unless you are seriously overhunting. CM defense is related to level, for example. If you underhunt you are less likely to get whacked. Also, they can't maneuver you if you disable them first. E-wave, for example, is ever so useful. As a warmage I trained 1x in CM; I ended up with 5 ranks of feint, 4 disarm, and one CD; I was actually able to feint many critters my own training. On the other hand, many pure casters don't even train in CM until at or near cap. Opinions differ; YMMV.
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/25/2015 11:52 PM CDT
Well if we're still weak against them with +100 CML from 1x CM, I don't see how they can possibly miss without those ranks.
DOUG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 01:01 AM CDT
>>I don't see how they can possibly miss
Open ended die rolls work both ways - they can go negative.
And of course, there's always Reversion.
Doug
Open ended die rolls work both ways - they can go negative.
And of course, there's always Reversion.
Doug
ZENDADA
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 01:06 AM CDT
The most intriguing changes are to 502 Chromatic Circle and 518 Cone of Elements.
I also like the changes to 504 Slow.
Chad, player of a few
I also like the changes to 504 Slow.
Chad, player of a few
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 04:16 PM CDT
>Open ended die rolls work both ways - they can go negative.
That's like saying Fumbling is an adequate defense against CS casting.
And considering things like shield bash can absolutely murder smaller races, I don't think that's a very fair setup.
Even completely unspelled, I'm pretty sure warriors/rogues have at least some chance at dodging TD attacks. And increasing spell defense is not nearly as difficult as increasing CML defense.
[Roll result: 118 (open d100: 38)]
A skeletal lord swings a splintered lance at your vine-wrapped runestaff and connects!
Your vine-wrapped runestaff is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
This is me getting disarmed today in Varunar. I'm nearly 1x Cman. He would need to roll less than 20 to NOT be successful against me while I'm in guarded stance. Seems pretty broken if you ask me.
It basically becomes a game of QuickDraw: whoever acts first wins. Against a computer, that's a losing proposition. That suggests I'd be better off script-hunting so that I could instant-disable upon entering a room with a disarming creature. Lame.
That's like saying Fumbling is an adequate defense against CS casting.
And considering things like shield bash can absolutely murder smaller races, I don't think that's a very fair setup.
Even completely unspelled, I'm pretty sure warriors/rogues have at least some chance at dodging TD attacks. And increasing spell defense is not nearly as difficult as increasing CML defense.
[Roll result: 118 (open d100: 38)]
A skeletal lord swings a splintered lance at your vine-wrapped runestaff and connects!
Your vine-wrapped runestaff is knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
This is me getting disarmed today in Varunar. I'm nearly 1x Cman. He would need to roll less than 20 to NOT be successful against me while I'm in guarded stance. Seems pretty broken if you ask me.
It basically becomes a game of QuickDraw: whoever acts first wins. Against a computer, that's a losing proposition. That suggests I'd be better off script-hunting so that I could instant-disable upon entering a room with a disarming creature. Lame.
ERYKK2
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 04:22 PM CDT
The disarm mechanics are one of the worst things about this game.
DOUG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 04:24 PM CDT
>>That's like saying Fumbling is an adequate defense against CS casting.
I'm not the one that used the word 'possibly'. Nor was it the main point I offered.
But you're absolutely right - I missed the fact that this was a teed up rant. Apologies for cutting in.
Be interesting to see how you work Reversion in, though. . . And lest it's not clear - I think the points you've made Keith in this post are fine - for what you do opt to cover.
Doug
I'm not the one that used the word 'possibly'. Nor was it the main point I offered.
But you're absolutely right - I missed the fact that this was a teed up rant. Apologies for cutting in.
Be interesting to see how you work Reversion in, though. . . And lest it's not clear - I think the points you've made Keith in this post are fine - for what you do opt to cover.
Doug
DOUG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 04:26 PM CDT
>>The disarm mechanics are one of the worst things about this game.
Not even close. Although I do agree, they're PITA level mechanics.
Doug
Not even close. Although I do agree, they're PITA level mechanics.
Doug
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/26/2015 08:05 PM CDT
Well there isn't "always" Reversion because I don't have it yet :p
Working on it!
Besides which, that's a fairly small proc chance. 17% I believe, if my character had it right now. Combined with my heavy CM training and it doesn't look too bad (20%+17% = 37%).
But take away the cman, which most wizards won't have at this level, and you're left where we started: with a 1-in-5 chance of NOT being hit, regardless of stance.
I was trying to think of what my ideal solution would be, and it's not a simple problem.
I think ideally a like level character should have a 20% chance of dodging, without taking into account special measures (like 540 or Cman training on a pure class). BUT the problem you run into is if you add +1CML defense/rank, then a pure can push that into full safety at cap. That's not good either.
Maybe extending the open-roll on the bottom end to a d100 of 1-20? Then a non-cm-trained wizard would have that 'fumble' chance plus 540 which would give them some ok odds. Although this does somewhat mitigate the benefit from CMan training (since currently that's basically the gains I've received, I can succeed in defending if they roll 5-20).
Or maybe just incorporate E/P/B into Cmans. That way pures would have some chance of dodging them. This solution would suck for warriors and rogues though, who rely on cmans to nullify enemy casters.
Not an easy fix.
Possibly a better solution would be in shrinking the scaling on the CML defense and raising the base defense. So if like leveled started at 20% to defend. And you gained 1 CMLD/3 ranks. Then wizards would top out at 53% if fully trained. And squares would get 86% chance to defend. Plus they would be much more likely to have trained specifically in the move in question, giving them further bonuses.
Not really trying to rant, I just find the current setup a little crazy. No other attack type has that kind of success %.
DOUG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/27/2015 02:55 AM CDT
>>Not an easy fix.
Thanks, Keith. Good post! And you're right, it's not an easy fix.
I like what you laid out, but I have this question I feel must be asked - what exactly is the problem defined to be? I'm going to presume that it is 'death'. But that presumption might be wrong - it might be just as bad to have to retire early from a hunt, in some folks' view.
I ask the question that way to lend thinking to the premise of the 'struggle'. Never dying would get rather old, I think. Always having that 'chance' is what spices things up. But what is a reasonable 'chance'?
I get the 'optics' of the situation that you're pointing out. It seems as though there's no way to win against the CMAN as a pure. But not every creature who can use a maneuver will. And not every maneuver will end in the demise of the character.
And then, as pointed out, there's always first strike and group disabler spells. Some professions have spiffy 'avoidance' spells that negate the first attack completely, or create a barrier that is difficult to breech, and so on and so forth.
Let's look at another 'optic' for a sec. Let's say that there's a game design parameter that suggests a character should actually be put in a totally life threatening situation at least one time in every 20 encounters. And let's say of those situations, it is - by design - intended that the character will die 50% of the time. The only reason this 'optic' exists is to put that sense of 'struggle' into the game. (Numbers totally fabricated to introduce the point.)
While the CMAN situation that a pure might have to face seems totally incredulous - what if that situation is one of the key ways to meet that 'death by design' goal? We usually shorthand this type of conversation by saying there's a vulnerability. What if changing that vulnerability by even a small, say 5%, chance reduced the 'optic' of the 'struggle' by half?
I know all this is soft, and for that I am truly sorry. I don't know of any player-derived mortality rates of the professions quantified by tracking results long term. But I do believe that 'mortality' or 'survivability' of each profession is tracked and tweaked by the GMs, and compared one against another to be sure no one profession is grossly out of line with any other. And I think CMAN attacks against pures is a prime component of that fact.
I'm not saying I like it, especially against the wizard profession. And I can tell you that even though Reversion does affect this curve, that effect is weak. Every time I see Reversion fire against a CMAN, there's no guarantee the maneuver will be avoided, and when the maneuver still hits it doesn't seem to have been weakened at all. My wizard character has died several times to the crawler burrow, and Reversion has fired several times during those deaths, too.
Nope, it's not a simple problem especially if we take into account this mortality rate view. What I'd like to see, though, is that the results of these maneuvers get some sense of scale. At level, above 60 trainings or so, it feels as though all maneuvers are equally deadly. I'd feel better if at the first occurrences the effects were no where's near as deadly as they are at cap / post cap. That would help the game out immensely, in my view. It'd shoot the curve to Hell and back, though. . .
Doug
Thanks, Keith. Good post! And you're right, it's not an easy fix.
I like what you laid out, but I have this question I feel must be asked - what exactly is the problem defined to be? I'm going to presume that it is 'death'. But that presumption might be wrong - it might be just as bad to have to retire early from a hunt, in some folks' view.
I ask the question that way to lend thinking to the premise of the 'struggle'. Never dying would get rather old, I think. Always having that 'chance' is what spices things up. But what is a reasonable 'chance'?
I get the 'optics' of the situation that you're pointing out. It seems as though there's no way to win against the CMAN as a pure. But not every creature who can use a maneuver will. And not every maneuver will end in the demise of the character.
And then, as pointed out, there's always first strike and group disabler spells. Some professions have spiffy 'avoidance' spells that negate the first attack completely, or create a barrier that is difficult to breech, and so on and so forth.
Let's look at another 'optic' for a sec. Let's say that there's a game design parameter that suggests a character should actually be put in a totally life threatening situation at least one time in every 20 encounters. And let's say of those situations, it is - by design - intended that the character will die 50% of the time. The only reason this 'optic' exists is to put that sense of 'struggle' into the game. (Numbers totally fabricated to introduce the point.)
While the CMAN situation that a pure might have to face seems totally incredulous - what if that situation is one of the key ways to meet that 'death by design' goal? We usually shorthand this type of conversation by saying there's a vulnerability. What if changing that vulnerability by even a small, say 5%, chance reduced the 'optic' of the 'struggle' by half?
I know all this is soft, and for that I am truly sorry. I don't know of any player-derived mortality rates of the professions quantified by tracking results long term. But I do believe that 'mortality' or 'survivability' of each profession is tracked and tweaked by the GMs, and compared one against another to be sure no one profession is grossly out of line with any other. And I think CMAN attacks against pures is a prime component of that fact.
I'm not saying I like it, especially against the wizard profession. And I can tell you that even though Reversion does affect this curve, that effect is weak. Every time I see Reversion fire against a CMAN, there's no guarantee the maneuver will be avoided, and when the maneuver still hits it doesn't seem to have been weakened at all. My wizard character has died several times to the crawler burrow, and Reversion has fired several times during those deaths, too.
Nope, it's not a simple problem especially if we take into account this mortality rate view. What I'd like to see, though, is that the results of these maneuvers get some sense of scale. At level, above 60 trainings or so, it feels as though all maneuvers are equally deadly. I'd feel better if at the first occurrences the effects were no where's near as deadly as they are at cap / post cap. That would help the game out immensely, in my view. It'd shoot the curve to Hell and back, though. . .
Doug
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/27/2015 08:20 AM CDT
>> But take away the cman, which most wizards won't have at this level, and you're left where we started: with a 1-in-5 chance of NOT being hit, regardless of stance.
>> I was trying to think of what my ideal solution would be, and it's not a simple problem.
The solution for a pure caster (which typically doesn't train heavily in CMANs) is to have a high enough defense that you can survived until you are able to pick your runestave back up. Something which wizards can excel at depending on how they choose to train. This happens to also be a great solution for not dying when you get stunned for extended periods as well (10 ranks of MOC goes a long way in this department as well).
An alternative/additional solution is to train specifically in DISARM which provides a much larger defense against being disarmed (and thus helps preserve the defensive benefits of holding a runestave). At 2x cap I have 12 ranks of CMANS (and 2 Ranks of DISARM) providing an extra 42 points of defense against being disarmed. I still routinely get disarmed in the temple but it's generally a nuisance and not a death sentence. I also carry a spare runestave (actually 2) in case something picks mine up before I do.
Also train in Temporal Reversion as soon as you can, at higher levels it fires of more than you might think.
And... don't be encumbered.
I don't script hunt (so I hunt at the speed of function keys and typing) and I don't use rapidfire hunting so I do get to spend my fair share of time in front of the critters. I used disabler spells (primarily immolation) and then wear things down with my bolt spells. Hunting this way, the thing that kills me most of the time is me - being super encumbered (grab 100k in silver then and read the encumbrance messaging) and then getting hit with an unlucky maneuver roll (charge, drowning, GWE major ewave). Maneuver rolls are much more deadly when you are encumbered.
Yes pures will still fail maneuver rolls frequently but if we're smart about it then it's just part of the combat sequence where you ultimately come out the winner.
Hmmm... adding some heavy crit padding to your armor or having a warrior add puncture resistance to your armor seems to go a long way here as well (not for disarm but for things like charge).
Generally speaking, if you find you are dying a lot due to a certain mechanic or maneuver then look at it and figure out what you can do to mitigate it (that's part of the fun). E.g. I used to die a lot to drowning in the temple. I trained my swimming to 1x and now it's a rare occurance since I usually (90%+) break free before I drown (unless I am super encumbered).
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
>> I was trying to think of what my ideal solution would be, and it's not a simple problem.
The solution for a pure caster (which typically doesn't train heavily in CMANs) is to have a high enough defense that you can survived until you are able to pick your runestave back up. Something which wizards can excel at depending on how they choose to train. This happens to also be a great solution for not dying when you get stunned for extended periods as well (10 ranks of MOC goes a long way in this department as well).
An alternative/additional solution is to train specifically in DISARM which provides a much larger defense against being disarmed (and thus helps preserve the defensive benefits of holding a runestave). At 2x cap I have 12 ranks of CMANS (and 2 Ranks of DISARM) providing an extra 42 points of defense against being disarmed. I still routinely get disarmed in the temple but it's generally a nuisance and not a death sentence. I also carry a spare runestave (actually 2) in case something picks mine up before I do.
Also train in Temporal Reversion as soon as you can, at higher levels it fires of more than you might think.
And... don't be encumbered.
I don't script hunt (so I hunt at the speed of function keys and typing) and I don't use rapidfire hunting so I do get to spend my fair share of time in front of the critters. I used disabler spells (primarily immolation) and then wear things down with my bolt spells. Hunting this way, the thing that kills me most of the time is me - being super encumbered (grab 100k in silver then and read the encumbrance messaging) and then getting hit with an unlucky maneuver roll (charge, drowning, GWE major ewave). Maneuver rolls are much more deadly when you are encumbered.
Yes pures will still fail maneuver rolls frequently but if we're smart about it then it's just part of the combat sequence where you ultimately come out the winner.
Hmmm... adding some heavy crit padding to your armor or having a warrior add puncture resistance to your armor seems to go a long way here as well (not for disarm but for things like charge).
Generally speaking, if you find you are dying a lot due to a certain mechanic or maneuver then look at it and figure out what you can do to mitigate it (that's part of the fun). E.g. I used to die a lot to drowning in the temple. I trained my swimming to 1x and now it's a rare occurance since I usually (90%+) break free before I drown (unless I am super encumbered).
-- Robert
Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/27/2015 02:43 PM CDT
>I know all this is soft, and for that I am truly sorry. I don't know of any player-derived mortality rates of the professions quantified by tracking results long term.
Oh but would I ever like to see those numbers!
You make some good points regarding death percentages but w/o the numbers it's hard to really say what would be suitable success numbers.
In general, it certainly seems to be the case that pures are mostly immune to DS/TD attacks. Wizards are the outlier in that they can be spirit warded pretty easily, at least in self-cast conditions. But they do, at least currently, have an advantage against RT attacks. I think that's a favorable trade-off. Especially since there are quite a few ways to boost spirit TD available.
Also it's important to note the distinction between creature maneuvers and CML attacks. Burrows from roa'ter-types are creature maneuvers and don't follow the same rules. I believe (hard to say for certain since it's a hidden roll) players are more evenly balanced in critter-maneuver defenses. Squares still get hit by these and pures can dodge these with reasonable consistency when compared to CML attacks.
After thinking this through I think there's just a few edge cases where I think the system breaks down. Not necessarily in death numbers but specifically:
-Disarm can have costs much higher than just a death. Losing a precious weapon can be a HUGE loss and players don't always know when they're entering a disarm-zone. This mechanic is really rather terrible at the moment though Wyrom said they're working on something.
-CMLs that result in instant death. I'm not an expert in this field but supposedly shield bash can 1-hit murder small (halflings/gnomes) races. When you have almost no chance at dodging the maneuver, and no wind-up to warn the player, that is a pretty tough pill to swallow. I'm not sure how many other CML maneuvers fall into this category but I think that's where my personal problems lie with the system. If you limited CML to non-fatal set-up style attacks (which, to be fair, is the majority of the current abilities) then I might consider it rather balanced overall.
I think your point about optics is well-made. While it certainly feels unfair at the time, if it isn't resulting in certain death (or losing 20M+ weapon), getting hit by one of these maneuvers adds a bit of spice to the encounter.
DOUG
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/27/2015 04:56 PM CDT
>>Oh but would I ever like to see those numbers! . . . it's important to note the distinction between creature maneuvers and CML attacks.
Oh, yeah. You and I both. And I agree - crawler burrows may not have been directly in line with your points. However, I'll take the correction but still stand on my point; Reversion can fire and still not be of any appreciable benefit.
Let's move the point of discussion from crawler burrow to crusader shieldbash - which is potentially deadly to any race - the Elf has been flipped onto his head for a fatal injury a time or three with that attack. And Reversion still fires. Here, since the roll is visible you'd like to think it would help. Even with a weak end-roll, death can still ensue.
>>but supposedly shield bash can 1-hit murder small (halflings/gnomes) races
What I don't know is if race size is a significant factor. Usually, elves are counted on the smaller side of the equation, so mebbe. Perhaps a human, 1/2-krol or giantman might drop in with some insight.
On the disarm point, I very much agree with the core premise. And almost every profession save wizard (non-archers) have a means with which to deal with this. Still, from my time in Nelemar (where most of my personal exposure to Disarm comes from), it's another heart-thumper, and I'd like to see the potential remain. How high should that potential be - certainly a great question.
Doug
Oh, yeah. You and I both. And I agree - crawler burrows may not have been directly in line with your points. However, I'll take the correction but still stand on my point; Reversion can fire and still not be of any appreciable benefit.
Let's move the point of discussion from crawler burrow to crusader shieldbash - which is potentially deadly to any race - the Elf has been flipped onto his head for a fatal injury a time or three with that attack. And Reversion still fires. Here, since the roll is visible you'd like to think it would help. Even with a weak end-roll, death can still ensue.
>>but supposedly shield bash can 1-hit murder small (halflings/gnomes) races
What I don't know is if race size is a significant factor. Usually, elves are counted on the smaller side of the equation, so mebbe. Perhaps a human, 1/2-krol or giantman might drop in with some insight.
On the disarm point, I very much agree with the core premise. And almost every profession save wizard (non-archers) have a means with which to deal with this. Still, from my time in Nelemar (where most of my personal exposure to Disarm comes from), it's another heart-thumper, and I'd like to see the potential remain. How high should that potential be - certainly a great question.
Doug
KEITHOBAD
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/27/2015 06:51 PM CDT
>Reversion can fire and still not be of any appreciable benefit.
That is really disappointing. At that spell level, and with the proc chance it has, I would expect it to actually work when it does go off. This is something that should probably be looked at :/
That is really disappointing. At that spell level, and with the proc chance it has, I would expect it to actually work when it does go off. This is something that should probably be looked at :/
DRUMPEL
Re: Old wizard returning from hiatus, looking for peer training advice
09/28/2015 01:44 PM CDT
| DRUMPEL has put together a nifty spreadsheet you can enter your lore goals into that shows you the benefits. You can find that under Wizards, Developer's Corner - Wizards, Elemental Lore Spreadsheet updated status. Really nice work. |
I have updated the lore spreadsheet and it resides in Magic/Spell Systems > Magic Systems. You can jump there quick from the link below.
http://forums.play.net/forums/19/224/2480/view/1138
-Drumpel
