Hello All,
I'm looking at starting a new Half-Elf Pure:
I'm thinking about setting my starting stats as follows:
Str 86
Con 44
Dex 59
Agl 78
Dis 77
Aur 49
Log 62
Int 62
Wis 73
Inf 70
This will result in all stats being 100 at cap except con which will be 74 with a 12 bonus.
How important is Con in the long run over the mental TP gain I will receive for not tanking influence? Even if I tank Influence the best I can do with Con is a 68 Starting stat resulting in a 90 at cap with a 20 bonus, which will result in an Inf of 86 and bonus of 23 at cap. Thoughts?
Basic Training Plan:
Armor to 15 for double leather, yes I'm aware of the 4% spell failure and am fine with it.
PT 1x
Perception 1x
Arcane 1.5x
MIU 1.5x
HP 2x The more mana the better
Spell Aim 2x
EMC 1x
Spells trying for 2.5x ME 1x to 75 516/414/909 by 15 then alternating between MajE and Wizard until 75 spell ranks.
Fire Lore 1x to 50 ranks
Perception 1x
Climb/Swim as points are available eventually getting to .5x by cap.
Thoughts/Comments?
Additional Question:
What determines TP growth after Cap? Do Stats figure into after cap TP growth, apart from Logic?
Thank You for your thoughts on this.
DYSCORDIA
RROY
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
06/27/2015 06:58 PM CDT
I don't play an half-elf, but I thought I'd share my strategy, With all the enhansives these days its easy to make up for any shortcomings in stats. So I set my stats to give me decent mental points out of the gate. If your a pure its not too important to set strength high and etc... So my plan is to just have stats for ease of life now, and then buy a fixstat potion with bounty points. Don't set the physical stats so low to gimp your DS or encumberance though.
Theres a tool out there that lets you plug in stats and see what the effects are on TPs and such. Lost Rangers I think its called.
Just an elf about town...
Theres a tool out there that lets you plug in stats and see what the effects are on TPs and such. Lost Rangers I think its called.
Just an elf about town...
DOUG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
06/27/2015 07:13 PM CDT
I'm going to mostly agree with the RROY-meister.
I would point out, though - that you're going to be dissatisfied with your mana and spirit over most of the haul. You may want to consider reducing another stat (perhaps INF if you don't plan on doing a lot of alchemy and buying stuff, or perhaps your AGI, since that can be made up with outside spells), and give your AUR a serious boost.
I'd prefer to see starting wizards with an Aura stat in the 80 range, but something has to give to get it there. You'll be glad you did, though. And keep in mind, the game is divided roughly into thirds. . . 0 level to mid-game (about level 66), mid-game to cap, and post-cap. Somewhere towards cap, if you really feel you should, you can always buy into the restat potions. If you start out with low Aura as you're positioned here, that means you'll be slogging through 2/3rds of the game at a disadvantage - a burden that you don't need to carry.
Doug
I would point out, though - that you're going to be dissatisfied with your mana and spirit over most of the haul. You may want to consider reducing another stat (perhaps INF if you don't plan on doing a lot of alchemy and buying stuff, or perhaps your AGI, since that can be made up with outside spells), and give your AUR a serious boost.
I'd prefer to see starting wizards with an Aura stat in the 80 range, but something has to give to get it there. You'll be glad you did, though. And keep in mind, the game is divided roughly into thirds. . . 0 level to mid-game (about level 66), mid-game to cap, and post-cap. Somewhere towards cap, if you really feel you should, you can always buy into the restat potions. If you start out with low Aura as you're positioned here, that means you'll be slogging through 2/3rds of the game at a disadvantage - a burden that you don't need to carry.
Doug
THROGG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
06/28/2015 02:55 AM CDT
You don't need perfect stats at cap; none of my gals have any such thing. Also you will, as mentioned, be gimping yourself during the first third of the game or so.
::This space for rent::
::This space for rent::
RROY
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
06/28/2015 03:44 AM CDT
Yea, at the price of fixstats with bounty points, I might just leave my skewed mental stats alone. Probably depend on enhansive charging needs, right now I have spent about 10% of my just over 500K.
Just an elf about town...
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
06/29/2015 10:21 AM CDT
Looks pretty good. A few thoughts..
I know you said you're okay with it, but just wanted to point out that compared to full leather, double leather provides 1 point of crit divisor on head/neck/legs and 2 points of AvD in exchange for botching 1 in 25 casts. It's a raw deal for a pure wizard, in my opinion. And it gets worse later on if you intend to rely on rapid fire much. I'd save the points in armor use unless you have a particularly nice set of doubles you don't want to give up.
Lores are expensive and the benefits aren't there, in my opinion. I generally advise 24 ranks in air lore and then forget about lores until post-cap. Fire lore is useful for immolate and it's useful for 908 splash effect. The latter doesn't require much training at all, and only really shines in swarms of fire-vulnerable enemies, which you probably won't encounter much outside of GoS warcamps. Immolate requires a LOT of fire lore and at 19 mana per cast is not a feasible option for wizards until much higher level.
Your stats look good for long-term growth. As Doug points out, the low mana stat will set you off to a slow start. But is 13 mana really going to make that much of a difference once you're out of the very low levels? Those levels go by really quickly, too. I think it's a solid plan for experienced players (maybe not so much for first-timers, though!). I also disagree with Throgg. While you don't strictly "need" perfect stats at cap, stats are key factors in so many things in this game. If you're planning for the long haul it just makes sense to either place stats for growth or plan to purchase a fixstat eventually.
Doug also mentioned spirit. Honestly, this is only a major consideration for one society and that society happens to be a bit out of date, in my opinion. I think if I were going to level up now I'd probably just join Voln as a pure wizard. It'll take awhile to master, but the benefits are worth it, I think. However, if you were planning to join that other society you would almost certainly want to have a higher aura stat for more spirit.
~Taverkin
I know you said you're okay with it, but just wanted to point out that compared to full leather, double leather provides 1 point of crit divisor on head/neck/legs and 2 points of AvD in exchange for botching 1 in 25 casts. It's a raw deal for a pure wizard, in my opinion. And it gets worse later on if you intend to rely on rapid fire much. I'd save the points in armor use unless you have a particularly nice set of doubles you don't want to give up.
Lores are expensive and the benefits aren't there, in my opinion. I generally advise 24 ranks in air lore and then forget about lores until post-cap. Fire lore is useful for immolate and it's useful for 908 splash effect. The latter doesn't require much training at all, and only really shines in swarms of fire-vulnerable enemies, which you probably won't encounter much outside of GoS warcamps. Immolate requires a LOT of fire lore and at 19 mana per cast is not a feasible option for wizards until much higher level.
Your stats look good for long-term growth. As Doug points out, the low mana stat will set you off to a slow start. But is 13 mana really going to make that much of a difference once you're out of the very low levels? Those levels go by really quickly, too. I think it's a solid plan for experienced players (maybe not so much for first-timers, though!). I also disagree with Throgg. While you don't strictly "need" perfect stats at cap, stats are key factors in so many things in this game. If you're planning for the long haul it just makes sense to either place stats for growth or plan to purchase a fixstat eventually.
Doug also mentioned spirit. Honestly, this is only a major consideration for one society and that society happens to be a bit out of date, in my opinion. I think if I were going to level up now I'd probably just join Voln as a pure wizard. It'll take awhile to master, but the benefits are worth it, I think. However, if you were planning to join that other society you would almost certainly want to have a higher aura stat for more spirit.
~Taverkin
DYSCORDIA
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/04/2015 06:14 PM CDT
Thank you all for the responses and opinions.
Doug,
If I understand what your saying you suggest placing stat's for ease of play for the first 60 or so levels then acquiring a fixstat potion to reset stats for growth? In the end game what is more important a high early set influence for more mental TP's during the first 2/3'ds of the game or a High Con stat for post-cap phantom crit/damage protection, more HP's and a minor increase in carrying capacity? I am trying to do this without wasting bounty points and/or real dollars on a fixstat potion.
Taverkin,
Yes at this time I'm ok with the 4% spell failure. I do not intend on creating a rapid fire/air build. If the 4% failure becomes too annoying, I can always fixskills down to full leather and regain those 154 physical TP's. At this time I do not have an unusual set of Double leather, but I have about a decade and half's worth of premium points sitting around on this account to create some. So would you suggest crit or damage padding? What type of flares/spikes/resistances? Ensorcell?
I'm not that interested in the additional boost to haste, disk and Tonis bolt that comes with 24 air lore ranks. It looks to me that I get a minor benefit to immolation and DF for 906/908 with 50 ranks of fire lore. What I am very interested in is splash effect for 908, 907 and I believe 904? I intend those to be my primary hunting spells. Suggestions on a better use of TP's to improve the splash affect of all three spells,(without training in warrior skills (MOC)) would be greatly appreciated. How many ranks of the various lores are needed to increase the splash effects of those spells?
I am not hugely concerned about a small short term loss of mana in the early stages of the game especially now with 1700 around to help keep us in the field. That 13 mana will be recouped in the long term as my Aura grows and approaches 100, or so I believe and training in HP will mitigate the loss until such time as Aura maxes?
As far as societies are concerned I intend Voln, the updates seem worth the pain to progress and master the society. Prior to the updates I might have planned to take her into the other society. GOS just seems to be a complete pain in the ass and with its sigils using mana and stamina, not worth the time investment.
Thank You.
Doug,
If I understand what your saying you suggest placing stat's for ease of play for the first 60 or so levels then acquiring a fixstat potion to reset stats for growth? In the end game what is more important a high early set influence for more mental TP's during the first 2/3'ds of the game or a High Con stat for post-cap phantom crit/damage protection, more HP's and a minor increase in carrying capacity? I am trying to do this without wasting bounty points and/or real dollars on a fixstat potion.
Taverkin,
Yes at this time I'm ok with the 4% spell failure. I do not intend on creating a rapid fire/air build. If the 4% failure becomes too annoying, I can always fixskills down to full leather and regain those 154 physical TP's. At this time I do not have an unusual set of Double leather, but I have about a decade and half's worth of premium points sitting around on this account to create some. So would you suggest crit or damage padding? What type of flares/spikes/resistances? Ensorcell?
I'm not that interested in the additional boost to haste, disk and Tonis bolt that comes with 24 air lore ranks. It looks to me that I get a minor benefit to immolation and DF for 906/908 with 50 ranks of fire lore. What I am very interested in is splash effect for 908, 907 and I believe 904? I intend those to be my primary hunting spells. Suggestions on a better use of TP's to improve the splash affect of all three spells,(without training in warrior skills (MOC)) would be greatly appreciated. How many ranks of the various lores are needed to increase the splash effects of those spells?
I am not hugely concerned about a small short term loss of mana in the early stages of the game especially now with 1700 around to help keep us in the field. That 13 mana will be recouped in the long term as my Aura grows and approaches 100, or so I believe and training in HP will mitigate the loss until such time as Aura maxes?
As far as societies are concerned I intend Voln, the updates seem worth the pain to progress and master the society. Prior to the updates I might have planned to take her into the other society. GOS just seems to be a complete pain in the ass and with its sigils using mana and stamina, not worth the time investment.
Thank You.
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/04/2015 07:01 PM CDT
<Taverkin,
<Yes at this time I'm ok with the 4% spell failure. I do not intend on creating a rapid fire/air build. If the 4% failure becomes too annoying, I can always fixskills down to full leather and <regain those 154 physical TP's. At this time I do not have an unusual set of Double leather, but I have about a decade and half's worth of premium points sitting around on this account to <create some. So would you suggest crit or damage padding? What type of flares/spikes/resistances? Ensorcell?
<I'm not that interested in the additional boost to haste, disk and Tonis bolt that comes with 24 air lore ranks. It looks to me that I get a minor benefit to immolation and DF for 906/908 <with 50 ranks of fire lore. What I am very interested in is splash effect for 908, 907 and I believe 904? I intend those to be my primary hunting spells. Suggestions on a better use of TP's <to improve the splash affect of all three spells,(without training in warrior skills (MOC)) would be greatly appreciated. How many ranks of the various lores are needed to increase the splash <effects of those spells?
You do get a minor benefit to immolate and fire spells at 50 ranks, but here's the catch. You can't use immolate until very late in the game due to mana constraints and you will probably want to invest far more in fire lore to use immolate. 908 is a terrible direct damage spell for the mana, only really preferred for its splash effect, which will cap out (practically speaking) long before 50 ranks and is still limited on the other end by MOC skill. 906 is a great spell, but because the boost to DF from lore is a flat amount (and rather small!), 50 ranks of fire lore only produces about a 1.65%-7.5% increase in raw damage at a cost of 600 PTPs (assuming you're converting as a pure). That's why I say it isn't worth it. And, in fact, air lore is barely worth it. It's just that access to a new and useful spell like Tonis bolt along with the haste bonus and disk slots is a much better return for 24 ranks in lore than any other lore offers. It still isn't a great benefit, particularly if you don't intend to use Tonis bolt (although why you wouldn't use it if you had it is beyond me!).
That's why I recommend fewer ranks in fire lore. In fact, if the splash effect is that critical it would probably be a better idea to invest in MOC to ensure you hit targets. I believe your maximum targets start at 8? Which is already more enemies than you will likely face at once except in rare situations.
FYI, 904 doesn't have a splash effect. Its big brother in the arcane circle (major acid) does. But all of these ball spells suffer from a significant reduction in damage compared to their lower-cost minor versions, in exchange for the explosive effect which again is useful in some situations, but is not a good choice as a staple, generally speaking.
The 4% failure is a much bigger problem for a rapid shock mage than anyone else. However, I'm of the opinion that all wizards should use rapid fire whether they rapid shock or not. Why stand around in 3 seconds of RT after missing an ewave when you could just cast it again and again until it hits? It's an unnecessary risk, like having haste but not keeping it up when facing enemies that stack RT. Why handicap yourself? An immolate mage can still rapid fire, you know!
The main reason the hindrance isn't worth it is that double leather offers a negligible amount of additional protection while causing 1 in 25 spells to fail. Compared to a wizard in full leather, you potentially make yourself vulnerable to attacks that never should have happened. I can't possibly calculate all the variables, but I have a hard time believing that the rare case in which double leather saves you where full leather does not outweighs the increased risk from failing to incapacitate a target which then is able to attack you, usually multiple times per hunt.
Anyway, hope it helps!
~Taverkin
<Yes at this time I'm ok with the 4% spell failure. I do not intend on creating a rapid fire/air build. If the 4% failure becomes too annoying, I can always fixskills down to full leather and <regain those 154 physical TP's. At this time I do not have an unusual set of Double leather, but I have about a decade and half's worth of premium points sitting around on this account to <create some. So would you suggest crit or damage padding? What type of flares/spikes/resistances? Ensorcell?
<I'm not that interested in the additional boost to haste, disk and Tonis bolt that comes with 24 air lore ranks. It looks to me that I get a minor benefit to immolation and DF for 906/908 <with 50 ranks of fire lore. What I am very interested in is splash effect for 908, 907 and I believe 904? I intend those to be my primary hunting spells. Suggestions on a better use of TP's <to improve the splash affect of all three spells,(without training in warrior skills (MOC)) would be greatly appreciated. How many ranks of the various lores are needed to increase the splash <effects of those spells?
You do get a minor benefit to immolate and fire spells at 50 ranks, but here's the catch. You can't use immolate until very late in the game due to mana constraints and you will probably want to invest far more in fire lore to use immolate. 908 is a terrible direct damage spell for the mana, only really preferred for its splash effect, which will cap out (practically speaking) long before 50 ranks and is still limited on the other end by MOC skill. 906 is a great spell, but because the boost to DF from lore is a flat amount (and rather small!), 50 ranks of fire lore only produces about a 1.65%-7.5% increase in raw damage at a cost of 600 PTPs (assuming you're converting as a pure). That's why I say it isn't worth it. And, in fact, air lore is barely worth it. It's just that access to a new and useful spell like Tonis bolt along with the haste bonus and disk slots is a much better return for 24 ranks in lore than any other lore offers. It still isn't a great benefit, particularly if you don't intend to use Tonis bolt (although why you wouldn't use it if you had it is beyond me!).
That's why I recommend fewer ranks in fire lore. In fact, if the splash effect is that critical it would probably be a better idea to invest in MOC to ensure you hit targets. I believe your maximum targets start at 8? Which is already more enemies than you will likely face at once except in rare situations.
FYI, 904 doesn't have a splash effect. Its big brother in the arcane circle (major acid) does. But all of these ball spells suffer from a significant reduction in damage compared to their lower-cost minor versions, in exchange for the explosive effect which again is useful in some situations, but is not a good choice as a staple, generally speaking.
The 4% failure is a much bigger problem for a rapid shock mage than anyone else. However, I'm of the opinion that all wizards should use rapid fire whether they rapid shock or not. Why stand around in 3 seconds of RT after missing an ewave when you could just cast it again and again until it hits? It's an unnecessary risk, like having haste but not keeping it up when facing enemies that stack RT. Why handicap yourself? An immolate mage can still rapid fire, you know!
The main reason the hindrance isn't worth it is that double leather offers a negligible amount of additional protection while causing 1 in 25 spells to fail. Compared to a wizard in full leather, you potentially make yourself vulnerable to attacks that never should have happened. I can't possibly calculate all the variables, but I have a hard time believing that the rare case in which double leather saves you where full leather does not outweighs the increased risk from failing to incapacitate a target which then is able to attack you, usually multiple times per hunt.
Anyway, hope it helps!
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/04/2015 07:03 PM CDT
Oh, and good choice on Voln, I think. I leveled CoL before the upgrade to Voln, but I have a hard time justifying that society these days. Voln just seems to have a lot more to offer, in my opinion.
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/04/2015 07:41 PM CDT
>> The 4% failure is a much bigger problem for a rapid shock mage than anyone else. However, I'm of the opinion that all wizards should use rapid fire whether they rapid shock or not. Why stand around in 3 seconds of RT after missing an ewave when you could just cast it again and again until it hits? It's an unnecessary risk, like having haste but not keeping it up when facing enemies that stack RT. Why handicap yourself? An immolate mage can still rapid fire, you know!
As a 2x capped bolting wizard I still haven't found the 4% failure from doubles to be an issue. Whenever I have a spell failure due to armor hindrance I make it a point to see if I die during the battle or survive just to track in an unscientific way how many times I die due to armor failure. To date I don't have any accounts where this is happened (usually when I die it's from an instant crit from a combat maneuver) but I expect it will happen eventually (and given the number of years I've been tracking it won't change my opinion at all when it does happen).
With all those PP's stocked up I would recommend acquiring (or enchanting up) some doubles to 7x or 8x (cost you 15-20 million to use someone elses PPs to get the 8x enchant or about 20 million to buy an 8x enchanting potion from someone who has one). Then use your PPs to take your armor to 10x and add Heavy Crit Padding. That's pretty much what I did for myself and I don't regret it one bit.
>> The main reason the hindrance isn't worth it is that double leather offers a negligible amount of additional protection while causing 1 in 25 spells to fail. Compared to a wizard in full leather, you potentially make yourself vulnerable to attacks that never should have happened. I can't possibly calculate all the variables, but I have a hard time believing that the rare case in which double leather saves you where full leather does not outweighs the increased risk from failing to incapacitate a target which then is able to attack you, usually multiple times per hunt.
While Tav may disagree with the label he seems to take a glass cannon approach to wizarding (the best defense is a good offense and more offense at the expense of defense is even better). I tend to play more for the defense side of the equation with the double leathers and the HCP (Tav wears fusion armor with no padding for additional offense by comparison). There are many times (a couple time a week at least) where I am stunned for 8+ rounds by something, with my defense, armor, and padding, I generally survive a good 90%+ of those situations. Yeah, I have to crawl away and eat some herbs but that's a pretty small price to pay vs. spending 20-30 minutes on getting raised, spelled up, and back to your hunting area.
Anyway, just a different point of view to consider. The great thing about wizards is that there really isn't a wrong choice. You can have fun regardless of your choices/direction!
-- Robert aka Faulkil
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
As a 2x capped bolting wizard I still haven't found the 4% failure from doubles to be an issue. Whenever I have a spell failure due to armor hindrance I make it a point to see if I die during the battle or survive just to track in an unscientific way how many times I die due to armor failure. To date I don't have any accounts where this is happened (usually when I die it's from an instant crit from a combat maneuver) but I expect it will happen eventually (and given the number of years I've been tracking it won't change my opinion at all when it does happen).
With all those PP's stocked up I would recommend acquiring (or enchanting up) some doubles to 7x or 8x (cost you 15-20 million to use someone elses PPs to get the 8x enchant or about 20 million to buy an 8x enchanting potion from someone who has one). Then use your PPs to take your armor to 10x and add Heavy Crit Padding. That's pretty much what I did for myself and I don't regret it one bit.
>> The main reason the hindrance isn't worth it is that double leather offers a negligible amount of additional protection while causing 1 in 25 spells to fail. Compared to a wizard in full leather, you potentially make yourself vulnerable to attacks that never should have happened. I can't possibly calculate all the variables, but I have a hard time believing that the rare case in which double leather saves you where full leather does not outweighs the increased risk from failing to incapacitate a target which then is able to attack you, usually multiple times per hunt.
While Tav may disagree with the label he seems to take a glass cannon approach to wizarding (the best defense is a good offense and more offense at the expense of defense is even better). I tend to play more for the defense side of the equation with the double leathers and the HCP (Tav wears fusion armor with no padding for additional offense by comparison). There are many times (a couple time a week at least) where I am stunned for 8+ rounds by something, with my defense, armor, and padding, I generally survive a good 90%+ of those situations. Yeah, I have to crawl away and eat some herbs but that's a pretty small price to pay vs. spending 20-30 minutes on getting raised, spelled up, and back to your hunting area.
Anyway, just a different point of view to consider. The great thing about wizards is that there really isn't a wrong choice. You can have fun regardless of your choices/direction!
-- Robert aka Faulkil
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
DOUG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/04/2015 11:47 PM CDT
>>If I understand what your saying you suggest placing stat's for ease of play for the first 60 or so levels then acquiring a fixstat potion to reset stats for growth? In the end game what is more important a high early set influence for more mental TP's during the first 2/3'ds of the game or a High Con stat for post-cap phantom crit/damage protection, more HP's and a minor increase in carrying capacity? I am trying to do this without wasting bounty points and/or real dollars on a fixstat potion.
I'll see if I can answer this question - ". . . what is more important a high early set influence for more mental TP's during the first 2/3'ds of the game or a High Con stat for post-cap phantom crit / damage protection, more HP's and a minor increase in capacity?"
If you set out to use a fixstat somewhere in your character's future, it's not an either / or proposition. You'll most likely start with the higher influence (and definitely a higher aura), but when you fixstat, you'll reset to reach the higher con (and strength) result.
In fact, for most wizards that start out with stats aligned with the pure side of the profession who then choose a fixstat, those wizards will lose about 200 to 300 mental training points, depending on when they decide to use the potion. That's because it is in that action the mental training points are reduced to allow the more physical stats growth.
>>I am trying to do this without wasting bounty points and/or real dollars on a fixstat potion.
I think this is a very telling viewpoint. If you have no real intention of using a fixstat in the future, then you should place stats appropriately such that you won't need to. This means you're going to try to balance the entirety of the game from the outset. If you were going to really do this, I'd recommend something like this:
This represents a truly playable half-elf, throughout the game, with minimal sacrifice to anything important to the pure / bolting wizard.
And it should be noted that I value constitution significantly over influence, especially for those of elven (or half-elven) blood. If strength needs to be 100 at the end, I'd suggest taking away from agility first - agility affects DS primarily, and DS is easily gained with outside spells. So, for example, start your strength at 86 and your agility at 62. In the end, this would leave you with an 89 AGI, and a 29 bonus (-6 from the max of 35). 6 DS is not significantly hampering.
Quick pro-tip: The stat is not as telling as the bonus is - when making choices, be sure to compare the bonuses from the stats, as it provides a good picture for balancing those choices.
On another note - if you're not using those bounty points for a fixstat, get yourself a badge with as much MOC as you want - and use your points to charge that up to increase your splash effect where you want it. And couple that with a STR or an AGI (depending on choice) bonus, to round out.
In truth there are so many ways to do this, and no choice is really going to be wrong nor is any choice really right unless you have a very specific goal in mind.
Doug
I'll see if I can answer this question - ". . . what is more important a high early set influence for more mental TP's during the first 2/3'ds of the game or a High Con stat for post-cap phantom crit / damage protection, more HP's and a minor increase in capacity?"
If you set out to use a fixstat somewhere in your character's future, it's not an either / or proposition. You'll most likely start with the higher influence (and definitely a higher aura), but when you fixstat, you'll reset to reach the higher con (and strength) result.
In fact, for most wizards that start out with stats aligned with the pure side of the profession who then choose a fixstat, those wizards will lose about 200 to 300 mental training points, depending on when they decide to use the potion. That's because it is in that action the mental training points are reduced to allow the more physical stats growth.
>>I am trying to do this without wasting bounty points and/or real dollars on a fixstat potion.
I think this is a very telling viewpoint. If you have no real intention of using a fixstat in the future, then you should place stats appropriately such that you won't need to. This means you're going to try to balance the entirety of the game from the outset. If you were going to really do this, I'd recommend something like this:
| Level | 0 | 20 | 50 | 66 | 75 | 90 | 100 |
| Str | 70 | 74 | 79 | 82 | 83 | 85 | 87 |
| Con | 82 | 86 | 92 | 95 | 96 | 99 | 100 |
| Dex | 59 | 69 | 83 | 89 | 92 | 97 | 100 |
| Agl | 78 | 83 | 90 | 93 | 95 | 98 | 100 |
| Dis | 77 | 82 | 89 | 93 | 95 | 98 | 100 |
| Aur | 61 | 71 | 86 | 93 | 96 | 100 | 100 |
| Log | 62 | 72 | 83 | 89 | 92 | 97 | 100 |
| Int | 62 | 72 | 83 | 89 | 92 | 97 | 100 |
| Wis | 73 | 79 | 87 | 91 | 93 | 97 | 100 |
| Inf | 36 | 50 | 65 | 71 | 74 | 79 | 82 |
This represents a truly playable half-elf, throughout the game, with minimal sacrifice to anything important to the pure / bolting wizard.
And it should be noted that I value constitution significantly over influence, especially for those of elven (or half-elven) blood. If strength needs to be 100 at the end, I'd suggest taking away from agility first - agility affects DS primarily, and DS is easily gained with outside spells. So, for example, start your strength at 86 and your agility at 62. In the end, this would leave you with an 89 AGI, and a 29 bonus (-6 from the max of 35). 6 DS is not significantly hampering.
Quick pro-tip: The stat is not as telling as the bonus is - when making choices, be sure to compare the bonuses from the stats, as it provides a good picture for balancing those choices.
On another note - if you're not using those bounty points for a fixstat, get yourself a badge with as much MOC as you want - and use your points to charge that up to increase your splash effect where you want it. And couple that with a STR or an AGI (depending on choice) bonus, to round out.
In truth there are so many ways to do this, and no choice is really going to be wrong nor is any choice really right unless you have a very specific goal in mind.
Doug
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 10:31 AM CDT
<As a 2x capped bolting wizard I still haven't found the 4% failure from doubles to be an issue. Whenever I have a spell failure due to armor hindrance I make it a point to see if I die <during <the battle or survive just to track in an unscientific way how many times I die due to armor failure. To date I don't have any accounts where this is happened (usually when I die <it's from an <instant crit from a combat maneuver) but I expect it will happen eventually (and given the number of years I've been tracking it won't change my opinion at all when it does <happen).
I would think by now just by chance you should have had a death following a failure. Are you only accounting for deaths which occur in the 3 seconds immediately following a failed cast? For instance, if I miss an ewave in a swarm, am I not opening myself up to a bunch of attacks, any one of which could potentially cause a chain of events leading to my death? The failed cast may only result in a light stun initially, but if you end up dying as a result of that, that would be a death to hindrance. One might even argue that missing a cast, retreating a room, then re-entering to try again and getting killed at that point could be chalked up to hindrance. I'm not sure where you draw the line, but hindrance would sure get in my way where I hunt!
<While Tav may disagree with the label he seems to take a glass cannon approach to wizarding (the best defense is a good offense and more offense at the expense of defense is even better). I <tend to play more for the defense side of the equation with the double leathers and the HCP (Tav wears fusion armor with no padding for additional offense by comparison). There are many <times <(a couple time a week at least) where I am stunned for 8+ rounds by something, with my defense, armor, and padding, I generally survive a good 90%+ of those situations. Yeah, I have <to crawl <away and eat some herbs but that's a pretty small price to pay vs. spending 20-30 minutes on getting raised, spelled up, and back to your hunting area.
<Anyway, just a different point of view to consider. The great thing about wizards is that there really isn't a wrong choice. You can have fun regardless of your choices/direction!
That's accurate, except I would point out that I would be using padded fusion armor if I could! I just don't have the silver for it...yet!
The thing is, you're advising double leather. Putting aside whether or not you agree that the hindrance is an issue, I'm not sure I understand why it's the double leather saving your hide and not the padding and other aspects of your defense? There seems to be very little difference between the two armors as far as I understand armor mechanics. The -1 crit divisor on head/neck/legs only applies to straight AS/DS attacks as far as I know. I know Whirlin disagrees on this point, but I've just never seen any evidence that the crit divisor of armor applies to maneuvers. Given that, I have to wonder how often that crit divisor truly comes into play.
That's the perspective I'm viewing this from. I see an insignificant advantage in defense for double leather vs. a slight chance of missing a spell. If it provided better protection I might change my mind. I'm not, as you say, interested in sacrificing defense for offense. I don't see the choice between full and double leathers really applying to that standard.
~Taverkin
I would think by now just by chance you should have had a death following a failure. Are you only accounting for deaths which occur in the 3 seconds immediately following a failed cast? For instance, if I miss an ewave in a swarm, am I not opening myself up to a bunch of attacks, any one of which could potentially cause a chain of events leading to my death? The failed cast may only result in a light stun initially, but if you end up dying as a result of that, that would be a death to hindrance. One might even argue that missing a cast, retreating a room, then re-entering to try again and getting killed at that point could be chalked up to hindrance. I'm not sure where you draw the line, but hindrance would sure get in my way where I hunt!
<While Tav may disagree with the label he seems to take a glass cannon approach to wizarding (the best defense is a good offense and more offense at the expense of defense is even better). I <tend to play more for the defense side of the equation with the double leathers and the HCP (Tav wears fusion armor with no padding for additional offense by comparison). There are many <times <(a couple time a week at least) where I am stunned for 8+ rounds by something, with my defense, armor, and padding, I generally survive a good 90%+ of those situations. Yeah, I have <to crawl <away and eat some herbs but that's a pretty small price to pay vs. spending 20-30 minutes on getting raised, spelled up, and back to your hunting area.
<Anyway, just a different point of view to consider. The great thing about wizards is that there really isn't a wrong choice. You can have fun regardless of your choices/direction!
That's accurate, except I would point out that I would be using padded fusion armor if I could! I just don't have the silver for it...yet!
The thing is, you're advising double leather. Putting aside whether or not you agree that the hindrance is an issue, I'm not sure I understand why it's the double leather saving your hide and not the padding and other aspects of your defense? There seems to be very little difference between the two armors as far as I understand armor mechanics. The -1 crit divisor on head/neck/legs only applies to straight AS/DS attacks as far as I know. I know Whirlin disagrees on this point, but I've just never seen any evidence that the crit divisor of armor applies to maneuvers. Given that, I have to wonder how often that crit divisor truly comes into play.
That's the perspective I'm viewing this from. I see an insignificant advantage in defense for double leather vs. a slight chance of missing a spell. If it provided better protection I might change my mind. I'm not, as you say, interested in sacrificing defense for offense. I don't see the choice between full and double leathers really applying to that standard.
~Taverkin
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 10:35 AM CDT
I agree on agility, Doug. My stats as a halfling wizard are all 100s except influence (83) and agility (98). It's not as if 2 points are going to make a noticeable difference, but going strictly by how I value stats and the possible alternatives, that seemed the best option.
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 11:19 AM CDT
>> I would think by now just by chance you should have had a death following a failure. Are you only accounting for deaths which occur in the 3 seconds immediately following a failed cast? For instance, if I miss an ewave in a swarm, am I not opening myself up to a bunch of attacks, any one of which could potentially cause a chain of events leading to my death? The failed cast may only result in a light stun initially, but if you end up dying as a result of that, that would be a death to hindrance. One might even argue that missing a cast, retreating a room, then re-entering to try again and getting killed at that point could be chalked up to hindrance. I'm not sure where you draw the line, but hindrance would sure get in my way where I hunt!
If I have a spell failure due to armor hindrance then I would count it as a hindrance related death if I died before everything else in the room is dead or until I have left the room. Keep in mind that wizards generally don't die that often! For myself I generally die 1x/2x per month from hunting between 6-10 hours per week (since I also play a number of other characters as well). That said, yeah I would expect to have seen it at least once by now as well.
We talked some in game relating to the rest of your post so let's follow up later in the week on that item.
-- Robert
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
If I have a spell failure due to armor hindrance then I would count it as a hindrance related death if I died before everything else in the room is dead or until I have left the room. Keep in mind that wizards generally don't die that often! For myself I generally die 1x/2x per month from hunting between 6-10 hours per week (since I also play a number of other characters as well). That said, yeah I would expect to have seen it at least once by now as well.
We talked some in game relating to the rest of your post so let's follow up later in the week on that item.
-- Robert
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 11:34 AM CDT
<We talked some in game relating to the rest of your post so let's follow up later in the week on that item.
Yep! Maybe with help from the folks here on the forums we can answer some of these outstanding questions with regard to how armor works. A few questions we came up with:
Does the crit divisor on armor apply to some?/all?/any? maneuvers?
If so, which kinds of maneuvers? CMAN? Spells like major ewave, boil earth, and spikethorn? Crawler burrows?
How does crit padding interact with coverage?
Is there some other mechanism than crit divisor which may apply to produce better outcomes for full coverage armors?
Does padding apply to CS/TD outcomes or only physical attacks?
~Taverkin
Yep! Maybe with help from the folks here on the forums we can answer some of these outstanding questions with regard to how armor works. A few questions we came up with:
Does the crit divisor on armor apply to some?/all?/any? maneuvers?
If so, which kinds of maneuvers? CMAN? Spells like major ewave, boil earth, and spikethorn? Crawler burrows?
How does crit padding interact with coverage?
Is there some other mechanism than crit divisor which may apply to produce better outcomes for full coverage armors?
Does padding apply to CS/TD outcomes or only physical attacks?
~Taverkin
DOUG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 12:01 PM CDT
>>I've just never seen any evidence that the crit divisor of armor applies to maneuvers.
Ahh, now your perspective makes great sense to me. I must have nodded off when you made this point earlier, Tav.
It's an interesting question - and of course I'm immediately going to say it does apply. Presuming you're accounting for wizard bolts as AS / DS, this might be a bit tricky to test properly. Perhaps one of our GMs might share some of the knowledge wealth being granted?
Intriguingly, though - without running any numbers, it's a fair question. . . what's the mathematical difference of 1 really get you.
Now, if you assume that crit randomization is equally weighted, here's the same table but swapping in the percentage chance for the max crit shown. So if Div 5 has a R2, and Div 6 shows R1, the percentage is 0% rank 2 at that row for Div 6, and then that row shows the percentage chance for the max crit for Div 6 in parenthesis.
So it's pretty easy to see that in end result ranges in 135 to 155 range, double leather is substantially better - especially given the softer head / neck target regions. That's the reason I so strongly advocate for doubles for wizards, less so for pures (and even less so towards cap), but more so for warmages (and even more so towards cap).
Now, does this apply to SMR? Hopefully we can get a response that indicates which direction to lean (and no, Robert, not left).
Doug
Ahh, now your perspective makes great sense to me. I must have nodded off when you made this point earlier, Tav.
It's an interesting question - and of course I'm immediately going to say it does apply. Presuming you're accounting for wizard bolts as AS / DS, this might be a bit tricky to test properly. Perhaps one of our GMs might share some of the knowledge wealth being granted?
Intriguingly, though - without running any numbers, it's a fair question. . . what's the mathematical difference of 1 really get you.
| Endroll -100 | Divisor of 5 | Divisor of 6 |
| 5 | 5 + R1 | 5 |
| 10 | 10 + R2 | 10 + R1 |
| 15 | 15 + R3 | 15 + R2 |
| 20 | 20 + R4 | 20 + R3 |
| 25 | 25 + R5 | 25 + R4 |
| 30 | 30 + R6 | 30 + R5 |
| 35 | 35 + R7 | 35 + R5 |
| 40 | 40 + R8 | 40 + R6 |
| 45 | 45 + R9 | 45 + R7 |
| 50 | 50 + R9 | 50 + R8 |
| 55 | 55 + R9 | 55 + R8 |
| 60 | 60 + R9 | 60 + R9 |
Now, if you assume that crit randomization is equally weighted, here's the same table but swapping in the percentage chance for the max crit shown. So if Div 5 has a R2, and Div 6 shows R1, the percentage is 0% rank 2 at that row for Div 6, and then that row shows the percentage chance for the max crit for Div 6 in parenthesis.
| Endroll -100 | % at Div 5 | % at Div 6 |
| 5 | 100% | 100% |
| 10 | 50% | 0% |
| 15 | 50% | 0% (50%) |
| 20 | 33% | 0% (50%) |
| 25 | 33% | 0% (33%) |
| 30 | 25% | 0% (33%) |
| 35 | 25% | 0% (33%) |
| 40 | 20% | 0% (25%) |
| 45 | 20% | 0% (25%) |
| 50 | 20% | 0% (20%) |
| 55 | 20% | 0% (20%) |
| 60 | 20% | 20% |
So it's pretty easy to see that in end result ranges in 135 to 155 range, double leather is substantially better - especially given the softer head / neck target regions. That's the reason I so strongly advocate for doubles for wizards, less so for pures (and even less so towards cap), but more so for warmages (and even more so towards cap).
Now, does this apply to SMR? Hopefully we can get a response that indicates which direction to lean (and no, Robert, not left).
Doug
DOUG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 12:19 PM CDT
>>A few questions we came up with:
A good list! One small complication is the additional AP (action penalty) for heavier armors, which I am quite sure (based on Coase's posts) factors into any SMR.
For Full Leathers zero AP, for Double Leathers -6 AP.
So how to assess the impact of AP in SMR? Coase sometime in late 2009 laid out the stats / skills that benefit the character in SMR resolution. The example used full plate and the difference between 1x and 2x Physical Fitness training (which was previously defined to be the single most important contributor to the character).
Specifically, the -35 AP for full plate is 'a little bit above the difference between 1x and 2x PF.' Without knowing more (like seed value, perhaps?) it is hard to say what the difference really is. But the -35 AP is known. Presuming all things are created equally, it's possible to suggest that the -6 AP for Double Leather is somewhere around .4x PF to offset.
See: https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Creature_maneuver_(saved_post)
This means that for armor type comparisons alone, avoidance is easier in Full Leather. How that scales, and what is the divisor situation? Still open questions.
And of course, as Droit pointed out in a different thread, overnight pures changed their training plans to account for PF, going in most cases from .25x to 1x as fast as their plans would allow.
Doug
A good list! One small complication is the additional AP (action penalty) for heavier armors, which I am quite sure (based on Coase's posts) factors into any SMR.
For Full Leathers zero AP, for Double Leathers -6 AP.
So how to assess the impact of AP in SMR? Coase sometime in late 2009 laid out the stats / skills that benefit the character in SMR resolution. The example used full plate and the difference between 1x and 2x Physical Fitness training (which was previously defined to be the single most important contributor to the character).
Specifically, the -35 AP for full plate is 'a little bit above the difference between 1x and 2x PF.' Without knowing more (like seed value, perhaps?) it is hard to say what the difference really is. But the -35 AP is known. Presuming all things are created equally, it's possible to suggest that the -6 AP for Double Leather is somewhere around .4x PF to offset.
See: https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Creature_maneuver_(saved_post)
This means that for armor type comparisons alone, avoidance is easier in Full Leather. How that scales, and what is the divisor situation? Still open questions.
And of course, as Droit pointed out in a different thread, overnight pures changed their training plans to account for PF, going in most cases from .25x to 1x as fast as their plans would allow.
Doug
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 02:06 PM CDT
Yes, if crit divisor does apply to most SMRs, then double leathers become more attractive. But if not, I have to imagine the chances of the crit divisor on a straight AS/DS attack being a significant factor in a wizard's death are exceedingly slim. Most of my deaths come from wither or shield bash, honorable mention to being swallowed by crawlers and chain stunned until I run out of health. When AS/DS attacks are a factor it's either a claidhmore involved or I die by blood loss as part of a chain of events usually starting with something non-AS-based. In either case, crit divisor is not a significant factor. Padding probably helps with all of these scenarios, and there may be a link between padding and armor coverage that lends itself to these resolutions, but I just don't know.
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 03:27 PM CDT
Thanks Doug. I'll be honest and say your 2nd table confused me. It might be because I was getting ready to head out to lunch when I was trying to understand it or maybe its just me. Since I was already working on something based on my discussion with Tav (that makes sense to me) I went ahead and finished it in case it helps anyone else out as well.
Assuming that a Critical Rank of 5 or higher = death (fairly typical for head/neck crit tables from what I have seen) then chance of crit death based on endroll and DF of the attack as follows (I don't know how to format tables on the forums and my copy/paste of formatted HTML didn't work so this is my best effort at making this somewhat readable without spending another 1-2 hours on this):
Damage Factor = .250
endroll-100, Max Crit (Robes), Max Crit (Leather), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather)
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
10 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
15 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
20 1 0 0.00% 0.00%
25 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
30 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
35 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
40 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
45 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
50 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
55 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
60 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
65 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
70 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
75 3 3 0.00% 0.00%
80 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
85 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
90 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
95 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
100 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
105 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
110 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
115 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
120 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
125 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
130 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
135 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
140 7 5 75.00% 33.33%
145 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
150 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
155 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
160 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
165 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
170 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
175 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
180 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
185 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
190 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
195 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
200 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
205 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
210 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
215 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
220 9 9 100.00% 100.00%
Damage Factor = .350
endroll-100, Max Crit (Robes), Max Crit (Leather), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather)
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
10 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
15 1 0 0.00% 0.00%
20 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
25 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
30 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
35 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
40 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
45 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
50 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
55 3 3 0.00% 0.00%
60 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
65 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
70 4 4 0.00% 0.00%
75 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
80 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
85 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
90 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
95 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
100 7 5 75.00% 33.33%
105 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
110 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
115 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
120 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
125 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
130 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
135 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
140 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
145 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
150 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
155 9 9 100.00% 100.00%
Damage Factor = .450
endroll-100, Max Crit (Robes), Max Crit (Leather), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather)
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
10 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
15 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
20 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
25 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
30 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
35 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
40 3 3 0.00% 0.00%
45 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
50 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
55 4 4 0.00% 0.00%
60 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
65 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
70 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
75 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
80 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
85 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
90 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
95 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
100 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
105 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
110 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
115 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
120 9 9 100.00% 100.00%
Hope that helps more than it confuses! And that's it for my delving into the math behind Gemstone for today. I'm generally more of a "This works because I've tried it different ways and this works better!" kind of guy when it comes to the game mechanics.
-- Robert aka Faulkil
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
Assuming that a Critical Rank of 5 or higher = death (fairly typical for head/neck crit tables from what I have seen) then chance of crit death based on endroll and DF of the attack as follows (I don't know how to format tables on the forums and my copy/paste of formatted HTML didn't work so this is my best effort at making this somewhat readable without spending another 1-2 hours on this):
Damage Factor = .250
endroll-100, Max Crit (Robes), Max Crit (Leather), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather)
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
10 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
15 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
20 1 0 0.00% 0.00%
25 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
30 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
35 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
40 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
45 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
50 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
55 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
60 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
65 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
70 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
75 3 3 0.00% 0.00%
80 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
85 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
90 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
95 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
100 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
105 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
110 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
115 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
120 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
125 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
130 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
135 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
140 7 5 75.00% 33.33%
145 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
150 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
155 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
160 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
165 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
170 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
175 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
180 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
185 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
190 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
195 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
200 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
205 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
210 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
215 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
220 9 9 100.00% 100.00%
Damage Factor = .350
endroll-100, Max Crit (Robes), Max Crit (Leather), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather)
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
10 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
15 1 0 0.00% 0.00%
20 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
25 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
30 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
35 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
40 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
45 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
50 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
55 3 3 0.00% 0.00%
60 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
65 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
70 4 4 0.00% 0.00%
75 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
80 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
85 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
90 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
95 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
100 7 5 75.00% 33.33%
105 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
110 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
115 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
120 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
125 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
130 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
135 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
140 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
145 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
150 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
155 9 9 100.00% 100.00%
Damage Factor = .450
endroll-100, Max Crit (Robes), Max Crit (Leather), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes), Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather)
5 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
10 0 0 0.00% 0.00%
15 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
20 1 1 0.00% 0.00%
25 2 1 0.00% 0.00%
30 2 2 0.00% 0.00%
35 3 2 0.00% 0.00%
40 3 3 0.00% 0.00%
45 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
50 4 3 0.00% 0.00%
55 4 4 0.00% 0.00%
60 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
65 5 4 33.33% 0.00%
70 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
75 6 5 50.00% 33.33%
80 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
85 7 6 75.00% 50.00%
90 8 6 80.00% 50.00%
95 8 7 80.00% 75.00%
100 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
105 9 7 100.00% 75.00%
110 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
115 9 8 100.00% 80.00%
120 9 9 100.00% 100.00%
Hope that helps more than it confuses! And that's it for my delving into the math behind Gemstone for today. I'm generally more of a "This works because I've tried it different ways and this works better!" kind of guy when it comes to the game mechanics.
-- Robert aka Faulkil
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
DOUG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 04:23 PM CDT
Good stuff, Robert - the only real differences between my second chart and your (combined!) charts are:
1) I just assumed a DF of 1 - not realistic, I know, but applying any multiplier works the same, and I wasn't all mathy myself today, and;
2) I chose to point out the percent chance of the highest crit rank, while you chose to include the percentage of any crit rank that might lead to death (cut off = R5 in your chart).
I'd say, at a shot, yours is probably more relevant - since the difference between a Rank 8 and a Rank 9 for a head shot or neck shot generally is 0 (dead is dead). And unfortunately, our forums don't seem to take imbedded layout commands to span columns, so reformatting your information still leaves three charts where one could suffice. But as a quick courtesy:
Damage Factor = .250
Damage Factor = .350
Damage Factor = .450
And reworking my original percentages table to match this format (simple DF = 1), it would have looked like this:
Doug
1) I just assumed a DF of 1 - not realistic, I know, but applying any multiplier works the same, and I wasn't all mathy myself today, and;
2) I chose to point out the percent chance of the highest crit rank, while you chose to include the percentage of any crit rank that might lead to death (cut off = R5 in your chart).
I'd say, at a shot, yours is probably more relevant - since the difference between a Rank 8 and a Rank 9 for a head shot or neck shot generally is 0 (dead is dead). And unfortunately, our forums don't seem to take imbedded layout commands to span columns, so reformatting your information still leaves three charts where one could suffice. But as a quick courtesy:
Damage Factor = .250
| endroll-100 | Max Crit (Robes) | Max Crit (Leather) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather) |
| 5 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 10 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 15 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 20 | 1 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 25 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 30 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 35 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 40 | 2 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 45 | 2 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 50 | 2 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 55 | 2 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 60 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 65 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 70 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 75 | 3 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 80 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 85 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 90 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 95 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 100 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 105 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 110 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 115 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 120 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 125 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 130 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 135 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 140 | 7 | 5 | 75.00% | 33.33% |
| 145 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 150 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 155 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 160 | 8 | 6 | 80.00% | 50.00% |
| 165 | 8 | 6 | 80.00% | 50.00% |
| 170 | 8 | 7 | 80.00% | 75.00% |
| 175 | 8 | 7 | 80.00% | 75.00% |
| 180 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 185 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 190 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 195 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 200 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 205 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 210 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 215 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 220 | 9 | 9 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
Damage Factor = .350
| endroll-100 | Max Crit (Robes) | Max Crit (Leather) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather) |
| 5 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 10 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 15 | 1 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 20 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 25 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 30 | 2 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 35 | 2 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 40 | 2 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 45 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 50 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 55 | 3 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 60 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 65 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 70 | 4 | 4 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 75 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 80 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 85 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 90 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 95 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 100 | 7 | 5 | 75.00% | 33.33% |
| 105 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 110 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 115 | 8 | 6 | 80.00% | 50.00% |
| 120 | 8 | 7 | 80.00% | 75.00% |
| 125 | 8 | 7 | 80.00% | 75.00% |
| 130 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 135 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 140 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 145 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 150 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 155 | 9 | 9 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
Damage Factor = .450
| endroll-100 | Max Crit (Robes) | Max Crit (Leather) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather) |
| 5 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 10 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 15 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 20 | 1 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 25 | 2 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 30 | 2 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 35 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 40 | 3 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 45 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 50 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 55 | 4 | 4 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 60 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 65 | 5 | 4 | 33.33% | 0.00% |
| 70 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 75 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.33% |
| 80 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 85 | 7 | 6 | 75.00% | 50.00% |
| 90 | 8 | 6 | 80.00% | 50.00% |
| 95 | 8 | 7 | 80.00% | 75.00% |
| 100 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 105 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 110 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 115 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 120 | 9 | 9 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
And reworking my original percentages table to match this format (simple DF = 1), it would have looked like this:
| endroll-100 | Max Crit (Robes) | Max Crit (Leather) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Robes) | Pct Chance Crit 5+ (Leather) |
| 5 | 1 | -- | 0.00% | -- |
| 10 | 2 | 1 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 15 | 3 | 2 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 20 | 4 | 3 | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| 25 | 5 | 4 | 33.00% | 0.00% |
| 30 | 6 | 5 | 50.00% | 33.00% |
| 35 | 7 | 5 | 75.00% | 33.00% |
| 40 | 8 | 6 | 80.00% | 50.00% |
| 45 | 9 | 7 | 100.00% | 75.00% |
| 50 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 55 | 9 | 8 | 100.00% | 80.00% |
| 60 | 9 | 9 | 100.00% | 100.00% |
Doug
TROUBLE13
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/05/2015 09:15 PM CDT
Placing stats for cap isn't going to hurt you too much. The difference in tps tends to be a few spell ranks over the long haul and you can push INF down to raise your AUR up to 70. While not the 80-90 that some people would prefer it won't leave you too far behind those people either. I've taken a wizard from 15-72 with stats set for growth and no real issues, he is a dark elf so that has helped with the +10 AUR bonus.
THROGG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/06/2015 06:31 PM CDT
A few posts back, someone mentioned paying for a potion to be able to enchant their armor from 7x to 8x. Is a difference of +5 in DS really worth the expense?
::This space for rent::
::This space for rent::
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/06/2015 06:48 PM CDT
>> A few posts back, someone mentioned paying for a potion to be able to enchant their armor from 7x to 8x. Is a difference of +5 in DS really worth the expense?
Well if you want to get your armor to 10x you need to get it to 8x first!
Is it worth it? That's like asking someone if their $100k sports car is worth the expense. I don't have that kind of money and don't expect I will ever own such a vehicle but if I had millions of dollars in the bank it is certainly something I would consider.
In the case of Gemstone I do have enough funds to buy things like potions to take my armor from 7x to 8x so... yeah, it is worth it to me.
I actually have such a potion sitting in my locker for my next project and think I've finally decided it will be 'legendary brigandine' that I make for my rogue this time around. I don't expect to have it to 10x and HCP for another 3-5 years though.
For me, that is part of the fun of playing this game.
Hope that helps!
-- Robert
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
Well if you want to get your armor to 10x you need to get it to 8x first!
Is it worth it? That's like asking someone if their $100k sports car is worth the expense. I don't have that kind of money and don't expect I will ever own such a vehicle but if I had millions of dollars in the bank it is certainly something I would consider.
In the case of Gemstone I do have enough funds to buy things like potions to take my armor from 7x to 8x so... yeah, it is worth it to me.
I actually have such a potion sitting in my locker for my next project and think I've finally decided it will be 'legendary brigandine' that I make for my rogue this time around. I don't expect to have it to 10x and HCP for another 3-5 years though.
For me, that is part of the fun of playing this game.
Hope that helps!
-- Robert
"Wyrom isn't interacting with me, I think he is AFK scripting."
DAID
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/08/2015 05:18 AM CDT
I was originally going to avoid the discussion of armor choice, but I had a nice example a few hours ago, so now I'm going to chime in. My character is a pure sorcerer, but I expect the basic discussion points are relevant to all pures, and particularly wizards and sorcerers who see some hindrance from double leathers (even if it isn't the same amount always).
My initial point was going to be, and is, that nearly all Kaldonis's combat-related deaths come from the difference of a second or two. This is, as often as not, lag playing from Tokyo, or a creature getting an action round as Kaldonis enters a room, but also includes his spell casting timing, fumbles, etc.
Kaldonis wears robes, and will probably never move to heavier armor. This definitely allows for 0% hindrance, and with Iron Skin (easily found on scrolls), can give by default up to full leather protection, and even more with some modest lore training. I note that to get double-leather equivalent, the cost for a wizard would be 15 ranks of Mental Lore at 0/20 (=600/0 PTP) versus the armor use training of 15 ranks at 14/0 (=210/0), so the cost of training is only tripled, and there is no hindrance. The CvA differences will still be there, but it is only 3 points between magical robes and magical doubles, and Ensorcell can surely assist here (and I doubt wizards nor sorcerers generally encounter issues of being warded by attack spells most the time). The added cost to spell burst for a level 2 spell is utterly nominal, but of course some places will simply strip them away, so I recognize not everything is equal.
As far as the case of robes versus say, full leathers, one advantage of robes is being able to wear enhancive leg or head armor without suffering increased hindrance.
I'm not sure on the exact maneuver attack penalty practically speaking, but we know robes will be the best option. Even Robert has stated:
>(usually when I die it's from an instant crit from a combat maneuver)
which I find curious as to the value of adding crit padding and heavier armor which do not seem to help the situation at all. Although it can be said that robes cannot have fittings added to them, which can be a distinct disadvantage in certain scenarios, although this wouldn't apply to the case of full vs. double leathers. This is, as Doug says, still an open question. Of course, overtraining Armor Use and Armored Evasion are both options to assist mitigating this; however, as the Armor Use training increases, the difference in saved training points between Mental Lore, Transformation also decreases rapidly. There is also no benefit of robes over full leathers in this case (but the ability to wear any armor enhacives still comes into play). Yet a final point worth noting is the modest encumbrance reduction of fully lightened armor, which is better for heavier armor classes.
Anyway, here is a nice death from today:
Like a faint wisp of a barely-remembered dream, your brief, enhanced comprehension of arcane mysteries slips away.
>ne
[Thanatoph Bowels, East Lobe]
Huge chunks of broken stone along with the clay-spattered walls give clear indication that a massive struggle occured within this passageway. The atmosphere is rank and damp, the stench so vile it's almost unbreathable. Fragments of bone and partial skulls lie strewn along this path. You also see a greater earth elemental.
Obvious exits: north, northeast, southwest
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>incant 711
A salty sea breeze stirs as you chant an old sailor's ditty, invoking Pain.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a greater earth elemental.
CS: +452 - TD: +386 + CvA: +25 + d100: +25 == +116
Warding failed!
A greater earth elemental twists in great pain!
The scintillating white light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 711
A greater earth elemental raises a glowing fist, then slams it into the ground, releasing a powerful burst of energy!
A wave of russet ethereal ripples moves outward from a greater earth elemental.
You are buffeted by the russet ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
Roundtime: 18 sec.
... 55 points of damage!
Strike to your throat removes it!
...and I die immediately.
Note a few things. The RT induced for the elemental by my cast of Pain was 3 seconds according to known sorcery. Somehow the elemental gets an action round before my next cast of Pain (3 second cast RT), killing me. If 1711 had not fallen seconds before, the resulting RT would be 4 seconds. It might argue that if I had another 20 ranks of overtrained sorcerer spells (at 0.5 CS per rank), I also would not die, but I think it shows clearly how a hindered spell is the difference of life and death for my character, since surely if the spell was hindered, regardless of my CS, I'd be dead. I mean, this is literally the difference of 1 second for me (most likely) successfully killing my foe by successive RT lock and me dying. This is, as often as not, how my deaths go. Even at a rate of 1/25 for hindrance, this will surely land me in more deaths than not. And since even if I do die from being plinked to death (which is unusual as a sorcerer given Cloak of Shadows and the options for 130 / 740 to whisk me away), it's usually some fact of the creature being able to take action from either not being disabled, in RT, or dead, is what did it!
So long as the major sources of death for wizards and sorcerer pures remain maneuver-type deaths, I just can't see what is finally gained wearing heavier armors.
It could be this is a logical argument made to support the fact that, from an RP perspective, this character ought to be in robes. Of course, there are armor concealers available, but that's still merely the appearance of wearing robes and not actually wearing robes (or, properly, it's still wearing leather armor even if robes are also worn in addition).
>The great thing about wizards is that there really isn't a wrong choice. You can have fun regardless of your choices/direction!
This is the heart of the point here, I think, and I just flesh out carefully this perspective. My character has been in 6x vanilla robes (some ensorcelling, and sometimes with Iron Skin, but also I own an Aura helmet) and I would be pretty comfortable to say I can't recall any deaths that were likely to be prevented by wearing heavier armor, though my sorcerer is only to level 92, and I heard some fittings to avoid rift crawlers was very, very useful.
As for different Armor skills (support, evasion, etc) available, it means one should take off their armor for any non-combat spells, or work in a sanctuary. Taking armor on and off is certainly not very difficult, but who would even do workshop stuff (charging, imbedding, scroll infusion) in double leathers? No one. But robes and full leathers are no problem. I just find hindrance annoying 100% all around. If I want to Planar Shift or cast Wall of Force right before hunting and it fails (my armor should already be on usually), that's 40 mana right down the drain. Not a big deal, but if I have the choice to not lose that mana, I'd rather keep it!
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
My initial point was going to be, and is, that nearly all Kaldonis's combat-related deaths come from the difference of a second or two. This is, as often as not, lag playing from Tokyo, or a creature getting an action round as Kaldonis enters a room, but also includes his spell casting timing, fumbles, etc.
Kaldonis wears robes, and will probably never move to heavier armor. This definitely allows for 0% hindrance, and with Iron Skin (easily found on scrolls), can give by default up to full leather protection, and even more with some modest lore training. I note that to get double-leather equivalent, the cost for a wizard would be 15 ranks of Mental Lore at 0/20 (=600/0 PTP) versus the armor use training of 15 ranks at 14/0 (=210/0), so the cost of training is only tripled, and there is no hindrance. The CvA differences will still be there, but it is only 3 points between magical robes and magical doubles, and Ensorcell can surely assist here (and I doubt wizards nor sorcerers generally encounter issues of being warded by attack spells most the time). The added cost to spell burst for a level 2 spell is utterly nominal, but of course some places will simply strip them away, so I recognize not everything is equal.
As far as the case of robes versus say, full leathers, one advantage of robes is being able to wear enhancive leg or head armor without suffering increased hindrance.
I'm not sure on the exact maneuver attack penalty practically speaking, but we know robes will be the best option. Even Robert has stated:
>(usually when I die it's from an instant crit from a combat maneuver)
which I find curious as to the value of adding crit padding and heavier armor which do not seem to help the situation at all. Although it can be said that robes cannot have fittings added to them, which can be a distinct disadvantage in certain scenarios, although this wouldn't apply to the case of full vs. double leathers. This is, as Doug says, still an open question. Of course, overtraining Armor Use and Armored Evasion are both options to assist mitigating this; however, as the Armor Use training increases, the difference in saved training points between Mental Lore, Transformation also decreases rapidly. There is also no benefit of robes over full leathers in this case (but the ability to wear any armor enhacives still comes into play). Yet a final point worth noting is the modest encumbrance reduction of fully lightened armor, which is better for heavier armor classes.
Anyway, here is a nice death from today:
Like a faint wisp of a barely-remembered dream, your brief, enhanced comprehension of arcane mysteries slips away.
>ne
[Thanatoph Bowels, East Lobe]
Huge chunks of broken stone along with the clay-spattered walls give clear indication that a massive struggle occured within this passageway. The atmosphere is rank and damp, the stench so vile it's almost unbreathable. Fragments of bone and partial skulls lie strewn along this path. You also see a greater earth elemental.
Obvious exits: north, northeast, southwest
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>incant 711
A salty sea breeze stirs as you chant an old sailor's ditty, invoking Pain.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a greater earth elemental.
CS: +452 - TD: +386 + CvA: +25 + d100: +25 == +116
Warding failed!
A greater earth elemental twists in great pain!
The scintillating white light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>incant 711
A greater earth elemental raises a glowing fist, then slams it into the ground, releasing a powerful burst of energy!
A wave of russet ethereal ripples moves outward from a greater earth elemental.
You are buffeted by the russet ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
Roundtime: 18 sec.
... 55 points of damage!
Strike to your throat removes it!
...and I die immediately.
Note a few things. The RT induced for the elemental by my cast of Pain was 3 seconds according to known sorcery. Somehow the elemental gets an action round before my next cast of Pain (3 second cast RT), killing me. If 1711 had not fallen seconds before, the resulting RT would be 4 seconds. It might argue that if I had another 20 ranks of overtrained sorcerer spells (at 0.5 CS per rank), I also would not die, but I think it shows clearly how a hindered spell is the difference of life and death for my character, since surely if the spell was hindered, regardless of my CS, I'd be dead. I mean, this is literally the difference of 1 second for me (most likely) successfully killing my foe by successive RT lock and me dying. This is, as often as not, how my deaths go. Even at a rate of 1/25 for hindrance, this will surely land me in more deaths than not. And since even if I do die from being plinked to death (which is unusual as a sorcerer given Cloak of Shadows and the options for 130 / 740 to whisk me away), it's usually some fact of the creature being able to take action from either not being disabled, in RT, or dead, is what did it!
So long as the major sources of death for wizards and sorcerer pures remain maneuver-type deaths, I just can't see what is finally gained wearing heavier armors.
It could be this is a logical argument made to support the fact that, from an RP perspective, this character ought to be in robes. Of course, there are armor concealers available, but that's still merely the appearance of wearing robes and not actually wearing robes (or, properly, it's still wearing leather armor even if robes are also worn in addition).
>The great thing about wizards is that there really isn't a wrong choice. You can have fun regardless of your choices/direction!
This is the heart of the point here, I think, and I just flesh out carefully this perspective. My character has been in 6x vanilla robes (some ensorcelling, and sometimes with Iron Skin, but also I own an Aura helmet) and I would be pretty comfortable to say I can't recall any deaths that were likely to be prevented by wearing heavier armor, though my sorcerer is only to level 92, and I heard some fittings to avoid rift crawlers was very, very useful.
As for different Armor skills (support, evasion, etc) available, it means one should take off their armor for any non-combat spells, or work in a sanctuary. Taking armor on and off is certainly not very difficult, but who would even do workshop stuff (charging, imbedding, scroll infusion) in double leathers? No one. But robes and full leathers are no problem. I just find hindrance annoying 100% all around. If I want to Planar Shift or cast Wall of Force right before hunting and it fails (my armor should already be on usually), that's 40 mana right down the drain. Not a big deal, but if I have the choice to not lose that mana, I'd rather keep it!
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/08/2015 01:24 PM CDT
The only reason I don't mention robes is that for most leveling wizards standard AS attacks are still going to be an issue from time to time. Usually they'll come into play after some maneuver leaves the wizard vulnerable, but if you're going to get hit by a weapon soft leather is far superior to robes due to the DF. If you never get hit, then robes make a lot more sense - particularly if you collect a lot of enhancives. Those armor pieces tend to have excellent bonuses!
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
DAID
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/08/2015 01:32 PM CDT
Yes, sorcerers mostly staying in guarded and keeping Wall of Force up, not to mention scrolls, makes standard AS attacks a joke until some maneuver makes you worm food.
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
ARIETTA
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/09/2015 02:14 AM CDT
<<<Yes, sorcerers mostly staying in guarded and keeping Wall of Force up, not to mention scrolls, makes standard AS attacks a joke until some maneuver makes you worm food.>>>
Ah, but those days are long gone, at least for some. Two sorcerer offensive spells are best channeled in offensive, Mana Disrupt and Disintegrate, which incur hard RT. Sorcerers also have Balefire, along with Fire Spirit and the bolt version of Web. Then there's Torment which requires an offensive stance to be safe and effective. By contrast, even though wizards cast bolts in offensive, there's no hard RT...so it's easy to macro "stance guarded" to make getting caught in offensive highly improbable.
I play both a sorcerer and a wizard of nearly identical levels, and the wizard is easily the better of the two from a purely offensive/defensive point of view. The wizard almost never gets caught in offensive, and even then, has much better DS. There is really nothing that matches the sheer firepower of Cone of Lightning for dealing with swarms. In fact, my sorcerer routinely carries and uses CoL scrolls.
Where the sorcerer excels, however, is with disabling spells. Sorcs have Limb Disrupt, Corrupt Essence, Mind Jolt, Web and other awesome disablers. Offensively, nothing beats focused implosion for raw destruction, at the potential cost of lost treasure. Open implosion is still potentially devastating, but requires both careful setup and cleanup.
The wizard is far, far easier to play, but the sorcerer is more interesting and flavorful. So there's a definite balance. I enjoy both of them for completely different reasons. Both can be effective hunters, but their tactics vary considerably.
I realize I totally went off on a tangent here. Getting back to the original point....I have to agree that AS attacks are usually a joke for both wizards and sorcs...but more so for wizards. And remember, we have Wizard Shield which is nearly as good as Wall of Force, with the same short duration.
Okay, done rambling. :)
~ GtG
Ah, but those days are long gone, at least for some. Two sorcerer offensive spells are best channeled in offensive, Mana Disrupt and Disintegrate, which incur hard RT. Sorcerers also have Balefire, along with Fire Spirit and the bolt version of Web. Then there's Torment which requires an offensive stance to be safe and effective. By contrast, even though wizards cast bolts in offensive, there's no hard RT...so it's easy to macro "stance guarded" to make getting caught in offensive highly improbable.
I play both a sorcerer and a wizard of nearly identical levels, and the wizard is easily the better of the two from a purely offensive/defensive point of view. The wizard almost never gets caught in offensive, and even then, has much better DS. There is really nothing that matches the sheer firepower of Cone of Lightning for dealing with swarms. In fact, my sorcerer routinely carries and uses CoL scrolls.
Where the sorcerer excels, however, is with disabling spells. Sorcs have Limb Disrupt, Corrupt Essence, Mind Jolt, Web and other awesome disablers. Offensively, nothing beats focused implosion for raw destruction, at the potential cost of lost treasure. Open implosion is still potentially devastating, but requires both careful setup and cleanup.
The wizard is far, far easier to play, but the sorcerer is more interesting and flavorful. So there's a definite balance. I enjoy both of them for completely different reasons. Both can be effective hunters, but their tactics vary considerably.
I realize I totally went off on a tangent here. Getting back to the original point....I have to agree that AS attacks are usually a joke for both wizards and sorcs...but more so for wizards. And remember, we have Wizard Shield which is nearly as good as Wall of Force, with the same short duration.
Okay, done rambling. :)
~ GtG
DAID
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/09/2015 08:40 AM CDT
>The wizard is far, far easier to play, but the sorcerer is more interesting and flavorful. So there's a definite balance. I enjoy both of them for completely different reasons. Both can be effective hunters, but their tactics vary considerably.
>I realize I totally went off on a tangent here. Getting back to the original point....I have to agree that AS attacks are usually a joke for both wizards and sorcs...but more so for wizards. And remember, we have Wizard Shield which is nearly as good as Wall of Force, with the same short duration.
My sorcerer also casts bolt spells not infrequently, and I've heard some wizards use 415 as one of their main attacks. So there is a lot of diversity here, for sure.
My sorcerer still doesn't get hit with AS type attacks, prone, in offensive, most the time. Sometimes his DS in defensive standing is about 800...
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
>I realize I totally went off on a tangent here. Getting back to the original point....I have to agree that AS attacks are usually a joke for both wizards and sorcs...but more so for wizards. And remember, we have Wizard Shield which is nearly as good as Wall of Force, with the same short duration.
My sorcerer also casts bolt spells not infrequently, and I've heard some wizards use 415 as one of their main attacks. So there is a lot of diversity here, for sure.
My sorcerer still doesn't get hit with AS type attacks, prone, in offensive, most the time. Sometimes his DS in defensive standing is about 800...
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
ARIETTA
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/09/2015 02:28 PM CDT
<<<My sorcerer still doesn't get hit with AS type attacks, prone, in offensive, most the time. Sometimes his DS in defensive standing is about 800...>>>
Holy cow. Sweet! :)
~ GtG
Holy cow. Sweet! :)
~ GtG
RROY
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/09/2015 03:49 PM CDT
Bah, years ago both my wizard and sorc hunted OTF empty handed and couldn't be hit by AS attacks most of the time.... Highly enchanted gear while not needed really do help, that and an ass loaod of training points. Not cheap to be fully trained in brawl, dodge, MOC, and CM...
Just an elf about town...
Just an elf about town...
DAID
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/10/2015 04:34 AM CDT
<<<My sorcerer still doesn't get hit with AS type attacks, prone, in offensive, most the time. Sometimes his DS in defensive standing is about 800...>>>
<<Holy cow. Sweet! :) >>
Yes, I have heard the term "overkill" before. This is when Kaldonis is glowing brighter than about 10,000 suns, mostly from scrolls.
And it's true Wizard Shield can be compared to Wall of Force. Overall I think WoF is quite superior. The cost-per-time gives 919 the advantage, but the DS is literally halved. Granted, a wizard can get a ruby amulet, but I had no real difficulty finding 919 scrolls and charging them. I don't use them much since I never bothered to write the alias to get the scroll, invoke it, cast the spell, and put the scroll away. Rubbing an amulet is a lot easier in that sense.
They are both really really great spells, though. For me, I think the biggest difference is WoF not being self-cast limited. That spell was one of the first I got a custom prep for, too. People tell me I'm a bit off since I had Kaldonis learn it around level 44 ("you don't need it") but I've been loving it for years.
I assume near a post cap, wizards are often keeping 919 active? Even in the Confluence, where the chance to dispel increases with more DS, I still use WoF. That's probably a place where padded, 10x armor shines (look, I'm on topic, hooray!). Get a couple dispels, a little RT, knocked down, and another creature entering. Having WoF up is the difference of life and death, and if they dispel 1701, 402, 403, 404, 104, 105, 112, and other fodder more often, doesn't bother me a bit. (Only 712 dispel is nasty.)
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
<<Holy cow. Sweet! :) >>
Yes, I have heard the term "overkill" before. This is when Kaldonis is glowing brighter than about 10,000 suns, mostly from scrolls.
And it's true Wizard Shield can be compared to Wall of Force. Overall I think WoF is quite superior. The cost-per-time gives 919 the advantage, but the DS is literally halved. Granted, a wizard can get a ruby amulet, but I had no real difficulty finding 919 scrolls and charging them. I don't use them much since I never bothered to write the alias to get the scroll, invoke it, cast the spell, and put the scroll away. Rubbing an amulet is a lot easier in that sense.
They are both really really great spells, though. For me, I think the biggest difference is WoF not being self-cast limited. That spell was one of the first I got a custom prep for, too. People tell me I'm a bit off since I had Kaldonis learn it around level 44 ("you don't need it") but I've been loving it for years.
I assume near a post cap, wizards are often keeping 919 active? Even in the Confluence, where the chance to dispel increases with more DS, I still use WoF. That's probably a place where padded, 10x armor shines (look, I'm on topic, hooray!). Get a couple dispels, a little RT, knocked down, and another creature entering. Having WoF up is the difference of life and death, and if they dispel 1701, 402, 403, 404, 104, 105, 112, and other fodder more often, doesn't bother me a bit. (Only 712 dispel is nasty.)
Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog
>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/11/2015 01:28 AM CDT
Are you saying that wizard shield is self-cast only? It isn't. I have a little script I use for those short duration spells like haste and wiz shield. Let's me quickly cast on myself and anyone else I specify. Great for keeping groups hasted and throwing up quick protection as needed.
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
DOUG
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/11/2015 01:36 AM CDT
>>I assume near a post cap, wizards are often keeping 919 active?
The Elf doesn't. Hardly ever uses the spell actually, and then usually for others as Tav points out.
Doug
The Elf doesn't. Hardly ever uses the spell actually, and then usually for others as Tav points out.
Doug
BLACKKOBOLD
Re: New Half Elf Wizard
07/11/2015 03:31 PM CDT
I keep wizard shield up when doing bandit and escort tasks and sometimes when I get war-cried into offensive stance by a Vvrael destroyer, especially if the destroyer has a claidhmore or there are multiple destroyers present! It's a handy spell currently, although if my gear were better or if I had some dodge training I can see it being much less useful. It basically covers just about as much DS as I could ever need where I hunt, so if I gained that 50 DS by other means there wouldn't be much point to it!
~Taverkin
~Taverkin
