COOPERA1
Triple spell training?
02/14/2015 11:25 AM CST
Is this even possible? If so does anyone have a core training play?
ABBOTTB
Re: Triple spell training?
02/14/2015 11:38 AM CST
To be honest I know some folks have tried this. However in my opinion, it is so expensive that you sacrifice other core skills and become a one trick pony.
Anything more that 20 plus ranks over the Sorcerer Circle, especially pre-cap, will yield diminishing returns. I am sure this was done to prevent the over training that folks did back in the GSIII days.
That being said, Sorcerer's still rely on CS spells as their primary attack. Most folks now, will train 2.3x to 2.5x in spells. Why? Because they wish to diversify their training.
If you wish to do this. Get your 3 spell ranks and see what you have left. You will have to decide if you want to carry a shield, rune staff or brawl.
Peace
Zhelas
(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?
Anything more that 20 plus ranks over the Sorcerer Circle, especially pre-cap, will yield diminishing returns. I am sure this was done to prevent the over training that folks did back in the GSIII days.
That being said, Sorcerer's still rely on CS spells as their primary attack. Most folks now, will train 2.3x to 2.5x in spells. Why? Because they wish to diversify their training.
If you wish to do this. Get your 3 spell ranks and see what you have left. You will have to decide if you want to carry a shield, rune staff or brawl.
Peace
Zhelas
(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?
OM1E5GA
Re: Triple spell training?
02/14/2015 09:35 PM CST
<<If you wish to do this. Get your 3 spell ranks and see what you have left. You will have to decide if you want to carry a shield, rune staff or brawl.>>
Without running the numbers through a spreadsheet, it seems like it would be difficult to get enough magic ranks for a runestaff AND triple in spells. A shield and brawling would prolly be much easier, though I can't see how getting any Dodge training to do pure brawling would be possible.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Without running the numbers through a spreadsheet, it seems like it would be difficult to get enough magic ranks for a runestaff AND triple in spells. A shield and brawling would prolly be much easier, though I can't see how getting any Dodge training to do pure brawling would be possible.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
SPYRIDONM1
Re: Triple spell training?
02/15/2015 01:15 AM CST
>Without running the numbers through a spreadsheet, it seems like it would be difficult to get enough magic ranks for a runestaff AND triple in spells. A shield and brawling would prolly be much easier, though I can't see how getting any Dodge training to do pure brawling would be possible. -- Starchitin
There is no magic skill requirement to gain parry DS with a runestaff. Runestaves are unique because they have an innate 10 weapon ranks bonus.
Example:
A level 10 character (any profession) with 0 magic ranks, 20 str bonus, 20 dex bonus and 4x runestaff will have +78 melee parry DS in guarded stance.
((weapon ranks + trunc(str bonus/4) + trunc(DEX bonus/4) * 0.90 guarded stance mod)) + runestaff enchant bonus + parry stance bonus = Parry DS
With 0 magic ranks:
((10 + 5 + 5) * 0.90)) + 20 enchant bonus + 40 stance bonus = +78 DS
Magic ranks are converted to weapon ranks and are added to the 10 innate bonus. If the level 10 character had 6 magic ranks per level (eg., 3x spells, 1x HP, 1x AS, 1x MIU) these magic ranks would convert to an addional 8 weapon ranks.
With 6 magic ranks per level:
((18 + 5 + 5) * 0.90)) + 20 enchant bonus + 40 stance bonus = +85 DS
A difference of 7 DS in guarded.
Mark
There is no magic skill requirement to gain parry DS with a runestaff. Runestaves are unique because they have an innate 10 weapon ranks bonus.
Example:
A level 10 character (any profession) with 0 magic ranks, 20 str bonus, 20 dex bonus and 4x runestaff will have +78 melee parry DS in guarded stance.
((weapon ranks + trunc(str bonus/4) + trunc(DEX bonus/4) * 0.90 guarded stance mod)) + runestaff enchant bonus + parry stance bonus = Parry DS
With 0 magic ranks:
((10 + 5 + 5) * 0.90)) + 20 enchant bonus + 40 stance bonus = +78 DS
Magic ranks are converted to weapon ranks and are added to the 10 innate bonus. If the level 10 character had 6 magic ranks per level (eg., 3x spells, 1x HP, 1x AS, 1x MIU) these magic ranks would convert to an addional 8 weapon ranks.
With 6 magic ranks per level:
((18 + 5 + 5) * 0.90)) + 20 enchant bonus + 40 stance bonus = +85 DS
A difference of 7 DS in guarded.
Mark
OM1E5GA
Re: Triple spell training?
02/15/2015 01:39 PM CST
Plugged some numbers into my spreadsheet that was already set up for my rogue because I wanted to see not just what the difference was with a character that doesn't start with optimized stats(cause, honestly, STR is nowhere near the first stat I'd put at 89 for a sorcerer), but what it is at different levels (plus, I couldn't be bothered to look up and plug in my sorcerer's starting stats). I should prolly also note that the spreadsheet I use assumes defensive stance for DS values and I used 3 ranks/level as the minimum for the sake of the thread.
At level 10 there's not enough difference to worry about it whether you have 3, 6, or 9 ranks/level (the difference between 3 and 9 was 8 points... and you'd do almost as well holding a medium shield with no ranks in Shield Use rather then a runestaff with 3 magic ranks.
As you gain levels, the difference between the three levels of magic ranks becomes more pronounced... I definitely wouldn't want just 3 ranks at 30, I really wouldn't want less then 6 at 60, etc. Though all those extra spell ranks could boost 430, 102, and/or 120 and might make it less noticeable, you'd be sacrificing the boost to CS that was the whole reason for 3x in spells at some point.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
At level 10 there's not enough difference to worry about it whether you have 3, 6, or 9 ranks/level (the difference between 3 and 9 was 8 points... and you'd do almost as well holding a medium shield with no ranks in Shield Use rather then a runestaff with 3 magic ranks.
As you gain levels, the difference between the three levels of magic ranks becomes more pronounced... I definitely wouldn't want just 3 ranks at 30, I really wouldn't want less then 6 at 60, etc. Though all those extra spell ranks could boost 430, 102, and/or 120 and might make it less noticeable, you'd be sacrificing the boost to CS that was the whole reason for 3x in spells at some point.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
KITHUS
Re: Triple spell training?
02/17/2015 07:55 PM CST
It's doable. I will be using my fixskills before the new one comes in order to find a more balanced build but I have had no problems thus far with this:
(at level 27), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Shield Use.........................| 82 18
Brawling...........................| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 111 27
Harness Power......................| 108 26
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 25
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 8
Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 53
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
(at level 27), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Shield Use.........................| 82 18
Brawling...........................| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 111 27
Harness Power......................| 108 26
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 25
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 8
Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 53
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
DAID
Re: Triple spell training?
02/18/2015 09:00 PM CST
(at level 27), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Shield Use.........................| 82 18
Brawling...........................| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 111 27
Harness Power......................| 108 26
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 25
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 8
Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 53
Good luck getting around without any Perception, Climbing, or Swimming. It's do-able I suppose if you lock yourself out of more and more areas as level increases. And I suppose for many checks you could get a friend to set you a gold ring.
I also don't recommend touching Planar Shift with a very long stick once you can use it at level 40. Zero SMC and EMC makes that sound really ugly. I'm not even sure how good DC will be besides that you can more easily hit things.
As long as you don't mind spamming 702 until your macro key breaks, it'll probably work out.
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 20 4
Shield Use.........................| 82 18
Brawling...........................| 5 1
Physical Fitness...................| 111 27
Harness Power......................| 108 26
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 25
Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 8
Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 53
Good luck getting around without any Perception, Climbing, or Swimming. It's do-able I suppose if you lock yourself out of more and more areas as level increases. And I suppose for many checks you could get a friend to set you a gold ring.
I also don't recommend touching Planar Shift with a very long stick once you can use it at level 40. Zero SMC and EMC makes that sound really ugly. I'm not even sure how good DC will be besides that you can more easily hit things.
As long as you don't mind spamming 702 until your macro key breaks, it'll probably work out.
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
KITHUS
Re: Triple spell training?
02/18/2015 09:09 PM CST
Daid did you not read where I said I'm going to be changing this before the next fixskills comes out? I was just saying it's doable. I only trained that way for low levels because it maximized my killing potential when I was going to basically just be spamming 702 anyways. I'm quite aware of all the short falls of the build. Quite frankly your post comes across as rather hostile and I'm not sure the reasoning behind it. Do you need a hug?
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
DAID
Re: Triple spell training?
02/18/2015 09:22 PM CST
>Daid did you not read where I said I'm going to be changing this before the next fixskills comes out?
Mis-read that as something you were going to change into.
>Quite frankly your post comes across as rather hostile and I'm not sure the reasoning behind it. Do you need a hug?
Ask Fyrentennimar.
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
Mis-read that as something you were going to change into.
>Quite frankly your post comes across as rather hostile and I'm not sure the reasoning behind it. Do you need a hug?
Ask Fyrentennimar.
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
DAID
Re: Triple spell training?
02/19/2015 10:04 AM CST
I do want to apologize to you, Kithus, for when I come across as too hostile. It is rarely my intention. Sometimes I just fire off a reply with a little mockery; I can see how it might read as hostile, though.
I would like to expound upon my basic revulsion which probably caused my terse reply. (Also, I hope you will note I nailed 100% the one advantage, and many disadvantages of the build you posted; one can claim those are obvious, but the OP was asking how this is viable, and the downsides absolutely need to be coupled with this style for a fair analysis.)
I really didn't read the OP to think like level 10 or 20. I imagined the viability to around level 40 or 50. My sorcerer in Plat (who I've not played in awhile) is level 35 or so, with 1x Polearms and 1x Hiding and Stalking. I hope it's very obvious how much those are purely RP skills. But guess what, he's perfectly viable! He easily hunts at level, no problem. And he sneaks around with a black or scythe because it gives me lolz.
TLTR: It's pretty easy to be viable under level 25-30, even if you actually try to do stupid things like I'd done.
Now, if I wanted an optimal 702 build, I might look at original Kaldonis who wore robes in GSIII, had 1x brawling, and no shield (nor shield use). He took advantage of the double-open-handed casting at a bare minimum of cost. Also, I feel like trading some of those 3x spells for 10 to 20 mana via HP would probably be more useful. However, in this instance the OP did not ask for how to max 702, but how to 3x spells. Personally, I think at low levels one 3x's spells for 702...and even then it's really a sub-par build for the goal at hand.
But yeah, just like my polearm sneaking sorcerer, it's viable.
I hope this reply is more thoughtful and less hostile. If not, I apologize, and I did try to lay it out more clearly as I could.
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
I would like to expound upon my basic revulsion which probably caused my terse reply. (Also, I hope you will note I nailed 100% the one advantage, and many disadvantages of the build you posted; one can claim those are obvious, but the OP was asking how this is viable, and the downsides absolutely need to be coupled with this style for a fair analysis.)
I really didn't read the OP to think like level 10 or 20. I imagined the viability to around level 40 or 50. My sorcerer in Plat (who I've not played in awhile) is level 35 or so, with 1x Polearms and 1x Hiding and Stalking. I hope it's very obvious how much those are purely RP skills. But guess what, he's perfectly viable! He easily hunts at level, no problem. And he sneaks around with a black or scythe because it gives me lolz.
TLTR: It's pretty easy to be viable under level 25-30, even if you actually try to do stupid things like I'd done.
Now, if I wanted an optimal 702 build, I might look at original Kaldonis who wore robes in GSIII, had 1x brawling, and no shield (nor shield use). He took advantage of the double-open-handed casting at a bare minimum of cost. Also, I feel like trading some of those 3x spells for 10 to 20 mana via HP would probably be more useful. However, in this instance the OP did not ask for how to max 702, but how to 3x spells. Personally, I think at low levels one 3x's spells for 702...and even then it's really a sub-par build for the goal at hand.
But yeah, just like my polearm sneaking sorcerer, it's viable.
I hope this reply is more thoughtful and less hostile. If not, I apologize, and I did try to lay it out more clearly as I could.
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
DAID
Re: Triple spell training?
02/19/2015 10:08 AM CST
>My sorcerer in Plat (who I've not played in awhile) is level 35 or so, with 1x Polearms and 1x Hiding and Stalking.
Woops. Edit button, please!
He's around 25 or so, as I recall. If he made it to 35 with that gimp build, I might actually be impressed. Because you can gimp it as a sorcerer for a pretty long time without it mattering really at all what you do if you at least 2x in spells...
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Woops. Edit button, please!
He's around 25 or so, as I recall. If he made it to 35 with that gimp build, I might actually be impressed. Because you can gimp it as a sorcerer for a pretty long time without it mattering really at all what you do if you at least 2x in spells...
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
DAID
Re: Triple spell training?
02/19/2015 10:16 AM CST
>And he sneaks around with a black or scythe because it gives me lolz.
black ORA scythe. A friend bought it off Dhask for me about 6 years ago. I heard you're big on Plat. Sorry if I swiped up a weapon just to be a retard with it. I might be known to do these kinds of things....
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black ORA scythe. A friend bought it off Dhask for me about 6 years ago. I heard you're big on Plat. Sorry if I swiped up a weapon just to be a retard with it. I might be known to do these kinds of things....
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
KITHUS
Re: Triple spell training?
02/19/2015 11:01 AM CST
ROFL that black ora scythe used to belong to my polearm paladin that I got bored of playing. You aren't wasting it anymore than I was when I had it made.
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Be nice to Wyrom or I will cut you!
DAID
Re: Triple spell training?
02/20/2015 10:14 PM CST
>ROFL that black ora scythe used to belong to my polearm paladin that I got bored of playing. You aren't wasting it anymore than I was when I had it made.
Yes, don't ask me why sneaking around with it in town was so funny...
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
Yes, don't ask me why sneaking around with it in town was so funny...
Any further posts with this signature will be removed.
ROLFARD
Re: Triple spell training?
02/21/2015 10:47 AM CST
Regarding diminishing returns;
All CS bonus past like level have diminished returns,
+1-20 you get .8
21-40 you get .6
41-60 you get .4
60+ .2?
This means overtraining the sorcerer circle 20 ranks yields 15 additional CS. Always useful IMO. My preference at cap is 162 sorcerer spell ranks but I know folks who go over/under. Before cap, you can manage 2.5x in spells and still get a dabbling of secondary skills that you won't use as much as you use that extra CS hunting...
All CS bonus past like level have diminished returns,
+1-20 you get .8
21-40 you get .6
41-60 you get .4
60+ .2?
This means overtraining the sorcerer circle 20 ranks yields 15 additional CS. Always useful IMO. My preference at cap is 162 sorcerer spell ranks but I know folks who go over/under. Before cap, you can manage 2.5x in spells and still get a dabbling of secondary skills that you won't use as much as you use that extra CS hunting...
SOLFE
Re: Triple spell training?
03/08/2015 10:53 PM CDT
This isn't a great point of data, but more like amusement.
Back in the day, Mags was a full on tripler. He used a buckler and cutlass. When he hunted with other sorcerers, several of them either believed he was under-hunting or not a sorcerer. He could swing almost as good as any other sorcerer, but his spells were awesomely deadly. Mana was always a concern without sacrifice. He tended to die very easily when mobbed or hit with a maneuver. On the plus side, he developed a knack for hunting with nightmare and curse.
The issue with all of that was the lack of TPS conversion, so mistakes were permanent. There was no sacrifice ability, plus mana and HP was pretty flat and mechanical. There were times where his defenses were very good, but his offence was limited by mana.
Currently, Mags has a rune staff and barely musters 2.29 in spells at 65. He has a fair bit of training to maintain RP of his former self, but seriously can't hit anything with a weapon. Mags thinks of himself as a jack-of-all-trades, so he can skin and pick and occasionally swing. He is not much a a mutant, just different enough not to be "normal".
He has a very inflated idea of his skills, to the point that other players shouldn't be fooled one bit by the breadth of his skills. Someday, he may train once in every weapon type just to say he has. He isn't even second banana to sorcerers that invest a little energy in just one tertiary skill. He is rather fun to play.
Player of Magarven the Mad
Back in the day, Mags was a full on tripler. He used a buckler and cutlass. When he hunted with other sorcerers, several of them either believed he was under-hunting or not a sorcerer. He could swing almost as good as any other sorcerer, but his spells were awesomely deadly. Mana was always a concern without sacrifice. He tended to die very easily when mobbed or hit with a maneuver. On the plus side, he developed a knack for hunting with nightmare and curse.
The issue with all of that was the lack of TPS conversion, so mistakes were permanent. There was no sacrifice ability, plus mana and HP was pretty flat and mechanical. There were times where his defenses were very good, but his offence was limited by mana.
Currently, Mags has a rune staff and barely musters 2.29 in spells at 65. He has a fair bit of training to maintain RP of his former self, but seriously can't hit anything with a weapon. Mags thinks of himself as a jack-of-all-trades, so he can skin and pick and occasionally swing. He is not much a a mutant, just different enough not to be "normal".
He has a very inflated idea of his skills, to the point that other players shouldn't be fooled one bit by the breadth of his skills. Someday, he may train once in every weapon type just to say he has. He isn't even second banana to sorcerers that invest a little energy in just one tertiary skill. He is rather fun to play.
Player of Magarven the Mad
