>For runestaff Sorcerers... - KARDIOS

I think you are referring to two-handed weapon (THW) training not two weapon combat (TWC). That aside, two-handed weapon skill only increases runestaff AS, not DS. You can blame me for the imprecise wording of the KP article. I'll tidy it up later. Magic skill ranks are converted to faux weapon ranks for DS calculations but actual THW ranks are not factored into runestaff parry DS.

Mark

>I think you are referring to two-handed weapon (THW) training not two weapon combat (TWC). That aside, two-handed weapon skill only increases runestaff AS, not DS. You can blame me for the imprecise wording of the KP article. I'll tidy it up later. Magic skill ranks are converted to faux weapon ranks for DS calculations but actual THW ranks are not factored into runestaff parry DS.

I've actually heard something about this TWC DS stuff, and I'm not sure the OP is incorrect. Something I've been curious about, because I know it would apply, is going brawling and training in TWC post cap. There are a number of benefits to having both hands open, not just channelling (also many maneuvers, and field XP absortpion) and I wonder if 1x brawl/1x TWC would produce enough DS to get by.

Player of Kilshaar

>>I said TWC, but I meant THW. An earlier version of the Krakiipedia seemed to me to imply that training in THW increases runestaff DS. Krakiipedia now emphatically states that THW training does not increase runestaff DS.<<

TWC training helps DS vs weapons for monks, who are designed to train in brawling and use the new UAC; this is provided that their left hand remains open. It's supposed to simulate blocking or parrying with the off hand. Not sure if it has any effect on DS for anyone else with an open left hand, or whether they need brawling training also for this to happen. (I suspect they do).

Runestave users can use THW training as a basis for DS, but it's an either/or thing. The game base is that 8 ranks of magical skills give the same DS for runestaves as if the wielder had trained in THW use. I actually have a THW using sorceress. Her DS using a runestaff is almost the same as when she is holding a maul (it's like 2-3 points better), since her magic skills are just a wee bit over 8 ranks per her level. I believe the game chooses whichever is more effective; in other words, if she had even less magic training, her DS would use her THW training in both cases, and be the same with either a maul or a runestaff.

Of course, a big difference in either case is that you can't block a bolt spell or an arrow with a THW. It would be to her advantage when facing a foe who uses such attack modes to keep her runestaff ready.

"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."

>Runestave users can use THW training as a basis for DS, but it's an either/or thing. The game base is that 8 ranks of magical skills give the same DS for runestaves as if the wielder had trained in THW use. I actually have a THW using sorceress. Her DS using a runestaff is almost the same as when she is holding a maul (it's like 2-3 points better), since her magic skills are just a wee bit over 8 ranks per her level. I believe the game chooses whichever is more effective; in other words, if she had even less magic training, her DS would use her THW training in both cases, and be the same with either a maul or a runestaff. -- THROGG

This is an incorrect misconception that's been floating around since the introduction of runestaves. It doesn't choose.

Holding a runestaff in the right hand will ONLY activate runestaff parry DS (magic skill ranks converted to weapon ranks). Parry DS is a function of whichever weapon is held in the primary hand. For melee weapons this would be the right hand. For archers (bows/crossbows) it is the left hand. When an archer swaps a bow/crossbow from left to right hand (off-hand for them) the weapon profile changes and so does the parry DS formula. A bow in the right hand activates THW parry DS with the quarterstaff damage table; a crossbow in the right hand triggers the one-hand parry DS formula with the cudgel damage table. But it's never an either/or.

What happens when you are holding a runestaff in the right hand and a bow in the left? If you have 0 ranged weapon ranks then the runestaff parry DS applies. However, if you have activated ranged weapon DS by training 1 or more ranks in ranged weapon skill then you will have ranged DS; runestaff parry DS, in this situation, is inactive.

>I'm pretty sure this isn't limited to monks, any profession should be able to train in brawling and TWC to get the same boost to their DS with open hands.... provided they get the minimum number of ranks in each necessary to trigger it. -- OM1E5GA

Correct!

Mark

<The .3 DS per rank is roughly the same as 8 magic ranks per level, however you don't get the enchant = DS bonus that runestaves do.>

Enchanted gloves/boots. Still get the enchant and have empty hands for channeling.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

>>I'm pretty sure this isn't limited to monks, any profession should be able to train in brawling and TWC to get the same boost to their DS with open hands.... provided they get the minimum number of ranks in each necessary to trigger it.<<

That should be correct, and if I recall, the recommended training in TWC for monks is 0.25x to trigger the effect. I have a rogue who is fully trained in brawling and TWC (2x in both skills), but that's mostly so she can use twin sais from ambush; the UAC doesn't give you 2 attacks with open hands, no matter how much TWC training you have. As a parrying weapon, the left hand sai adds +10 DS if I remember correctly.

You have me curious now; I'll have to see how her DS varies when using weapons vs empty hands. This is, of course, of little more than theoretical interest to the average sorcerer, in whose folder we are currently posting :)

"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."

>>Enchanted gloves/boots. Still get the enchant and have empty hands for channeling.

With runestaves you get the full bonus applied to your DS. With UAC gear it is only the enchant of the gloves that matter and it gets added as part of the parry DS equation like using a standard melee weapon.

You swing a closed fist at Xxxx!
AS: +125 vs DS: +198 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +37 = -16
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
Xxxx removes some leather handwraps from in his brown cloak.
>
Xxxx slips some leather handwraps over his hands.
>at
You swing a closed fist at Xxxx!
AS: +125 vs DS: +201 with AvD: +20 + d100 roll: +100 = +44
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Ok, thanks for the info ... I think. Sheesh, I am going to have to check all my mutants and see what their DS is with THWs and runestaves. All of them carry 4x runestaves for Defense vs bolt or missile using foes, but their THWs are all 7x, and I never really compared the two. Gah.

"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."