Alright, here's what I'm at right now;

Name: Fuinhir Race: Dark Elf Profession: Rogue
Level: 9 Gender: Male Age: 42

Skills:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 90 20
Combat Maneuvers...................| 50 10
Edged Weapons......................| 90 20
Ambush.............................| 90 20
Physical Fitness...................| 54 11
Dodging............................| 54 11
Arcane Symbols.....................| 10 2
Survival...........................| 54 11
Disarming Traps....................| 111 27
Picking Locks......................| 111 27
Stalking and Hiding................| 111 27
Perception.........................| 111 27
Climbing...........................| 10 2
First Aid..........................| 54 11

Stats: Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Constitution (CON): 63 (1) ... 63 (1)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (31) ... 93 (31)
Agility (AGL): 94 (27) ... 94 (27)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (1) ... 73 (1)
Aura (AUR): 72 (21) ... 72 (21)
Logic (LOG): 63 (6) ... 63 (6)
Intuition (INT): 64 (12) ... 64 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 42 (1) ... 42 (1)
Influence (INF): 34 (-13) ... 34 (-13)

So, having been gone for awhile it looks like I had been triple training my Disarm/Pick Lock/S&H/Perception until about level 8? And I was double training Armor (presumably to quickly free up those points at 30), OHE and Ambush. Then I managed to single train CM, PF, Dodge, Survival, and First Aid and I slapped some points into Climbing and Arcane Symbols. I tried to follow what I had been doing when I hit 9, but I ran out of points pretty quick so I jumbled things up and down a little to get to these numbers. Now, maybe it's about the area I'm in and what's nearby, but I'm feeling a bit underpowered when I tried to hunt near my level. I'm wearing silver-edged leathers which I think are Reinforced Leathers. I got over to Ta'Vaalor and the only thing near me living seems to be spotted lynx (who spot me out of hiding at least half the time) and lesser red orcs. Both of these give me trouble, I'm afraid to pop out of defensive stance because even IN defensive they still can slash and claw me for 10 to 15 damage. To be fair, on the damage end, I was most recently trying to use my dagger instead of my faenor falchion, but my ambushes weren't finding their mark frequently either...or at least, I wasn't finding an opening or I wasn't rolling high enough to get past their DS. On the other hand, the adventurer's guild gave me a quest in the cemetery to kill Mist Wraiths and I only took it because my plain falchion was glowing (which I assumed meant it was blessed...it was) and the undead in there didn't seem to give me much trouble. They are 4 or more levels below me now, but is that normal at low levels, to hunt that much below you? Or has my newbishness not worn off enough to have figured things out that would make the lynx and orcs easier? Or perhaps, I think I still have a traveler's token, should I consider Wehnimer's or Icemule? I mean, I'm not so invested that I'm above a re-roll anyway, I think I chose dark elf all those yeas ago because I connected with their "outcast" background. Now I'm a little more open racially...maybe a dwarf or a regular elf. Or a forest gnome maybe...

Basically...what do you guys think? It's still so early I can easily re-roll to start over and not feel like I'm losing anything...I could even, probably, find a safe place to stash my stuff and "hand it off" to a new character since race is permanent.

<I got over to Ta'Vaalor and the only thing near me living seems to be spotted lynx (who spot me out of hiding at least half the time) and lesser red orcs. Both of these give me trouble, I'm afraid to pop out of defensive stance because even IN defensive they still can slash and claw me for 10 to 15 damage. To be fair, on the damage end, I was most recently trying to use my dagger instead of my faenor falchion, but my ambushes weren't finding their mark frequently either...or at least, I wasn't finding an opening or I wasn't rolling high enough to get past their DS.>

I'm not familiar with hunting around Elven Nations, but your problems with defenses most likely come from not having enough S&H to remain hidden around what you're hunting and not having any Shield or TWC training. The hiding will get steadily easier until you can start to rely on it somewhere around level 25-30. For now I would 1x in Shields and get a small or medium shield, when you can rely on the shadows to keep you safer you can either keep it or switch over to TWC and get a second weapon.

Since you said TPs are a problem, Survival and First Aid are good things to drop. For a rogue that triples in locksmithing skills, you can't afford any other secondary skills, if you don't NEED it to hunt or pick they'll have to wait until much mater when you're getting more TPs and can stop training in somethings or can slack off in others. If you still need more TPs, you can get by in double leather and just 1x in Armor Use until level 30. Getting into brig earlier is nice, but not absolutely necessary.

As far as not finding an opening for things, this will get less and less common as you gain ranks in Ambush. It prolly won't be worth using the AMBUSH verb regularly until around level 15ish, but just keep at it and you'll find yourself getting more and more successful and will eventually stop seeing that message at all.

Lastly, when you hit level 10, make sure all your gear (sword, shield, and armor) is 4x. It's not expensive and there's enough of it floating around unused that someone might even donate a sword or shield to you if you're lucky (heck, if you were in RR or the Landing, I'd give them to you just to clear out some space in my lockers).

<Now I'm a little more open racially...maybe a dwarf or a regular elf. Or a forest gnome maybe...>

Forest gnomes make great rogues (anyone that tries to tell you any different doesn't know what they're talking about) but dark elves also make great rogues. If you decide to go for a smaller race like gnomes, be prepared to be constantly battling encumbrance... you might even want to consider going with ranged instead of OHE if you reroll as a forest gnome since encumbrance doesn't increase the RT for bows.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

<Forest gnomes make great rogues (anyone that tries to tell you any different doesn't know what they're talking about) but dark elves also make great rogues. If you decide to go for a smaller race like gnomes, be prepared to be constantly battling encumbrance... you might even want to consider going with ranged instead of OHE if you reroll as a forest gnome since encumbrance doesn't increase the RT for bows.>

I'm far too indecisive while gaming -_-;; I wish I had all the time in the world to just play and do everything I want. Right now I'm thinking if I want to make a polearm user to remake a character idea I had for something long ago and do it as an elf warrior, toy around with range as a sylvan ranger, and give things a good thumping as a dwarf rogue. But dwarves are considered short (though not as short as gnomes or halflings) so I'd likely wind up having to take down legs or otherwise knock them over when I get into ambushing in order to get that head crit wouldn't I? If I went for a dwarf ambusher with OH-/shield I might have the power to take things down relatively well (str bonus and training) but will a lack of Dex and a negative Agi bonus hinder my hiding or picking, or does that really, ultimately, come down to training? I suppose ultimately do ANY of the racial bonuses potentially make or break the use of a race in any profession in any style?

Thanks so much for continuing to answer my probably annoyingly newbie questions. Right now I'm even hemming and hawing on if I do a dwarf do I take the slightly cheaper OHE and use a handaxe for style points, or OHB and use a warhammer (again for style as much as function). Or worse, screw up my whole training thing, go for Brawling and TWC, and use Troll-claws because they sound cool?

Star has provided some great feedback, but I am going to throw in my own 2 cents.

First, you can migrate skills instantly for the first 20 levels now, so don't worry about rerolling unless you want to change race.

Second, you are going to either want a shield (for defense) or a second weapon (if you believe offense is the best defense). Until 58, my rogue was a OHE/Shield user, now has transitioned to ranged. I recommend OHE/Shield or THW until you get close to 20 and have to solidify your training. They are going to be easiest to get a feel for, and you shouldn't have as many issues. I would also give up on attempting to hide and ambush until at least 15. Just pretend to be a warrior, and stance dance. Once you get into your late teens, you can start ambushing, and try out some different weapon types with reasonable skill and settle in before you hit 20 and your skills can't be changed quickly.

If I were rolling a rogue currently, I would do the following for the first 15 levels.

8 Ranks of armor for double leather
2x shield
2x OHE
2x CM
2x PF
2x+ Dodge


and let all of the other stuff fall by the wayside. Then move to what fits the RP of the character after I get to 15, when ambushing starts to become effective.

Additionally, regarding lynxes, animal type critters (and some undead) are MUCH more perceptive than average, so you will always have a difficult time staying in hiding against them.

<You can join the Rogue Guild at 15 trains. DO so. There are a couple of Guild skills that are useful in combat, once you get a few ranks under your belt. I use a fair amount of Sweep, for example. Don't expect to be very proficient in these until you get the equivalent of 3 CMan ranks ... 30+ Guild skill ranks ... but you may as well start the training ASAP.>

Stop trying to scare off the new folk!

Seriously though, it can be... monotonous... learning guild skills (ok, it will be. I just can't be diplomatic about that). It is nice being able to learn these skills without having to use CM points on them, though.

If you just can't stand learning them through the guild, it's not absolutely necessary to get them that way since the combat ones are all available as CMANs, but that is a good option. If you're going to be picking boxes, you'll def want to master in Lock Mastery, though.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

>> I would like to add that training in Lock Mastery (aka LFM ... and no, I can't explain that abbreviation on these family friendly forums)is a true horror.

It can be a lot of fun if you aren't trying to 'rush' to the end. It definitely is a LOT of time and effort to complete though.

-- Robert

Due to the volatile atmosphere, random bolts of lightning can intermittently be seen streaking through the skyline.

I was thinking about the fact that up to 20 my skills can change instantly and wondered about using that to get an even earlier feel for consistent ambushing. If I let most other things kind of slide and did 3x in Ambush and S/H then wouldn't I be seeing some consistency as of my 10th training? Is there a "plateau" of sorts in Ambushing, not likely to work until 30 ranks and then suddenly it works regularly unless you uphunt? I wouldn't be picking efficiently (or at all perhaps) but I also have seen chatter, admittedly some of it years old, about people just using the town locksmith? That sounds like something that may have lead to a decline in the value of picking rogues. Why tip someone to spend time checking, double checking, then triple checking boxes before even picking them if you can pay an NPC to handle it faster?

I have also seen a bit of back and forth on doing reps for Lock Mastery and the feasibility of self-supplying boxes that are even worth reps. Regarding the Guild if I stop actively playing I would stop paying dues, and if I lapse on my dues I get drummed out I think? Is that something you can come back from, like if I took a six month break could I come back and get back in still?

Back, for a moment, on Ambushing (sort of) I've seen a lot of stuff on how awesome Ambushing with UAC is, but not a lot about it with brawling weapons. I browsed a monk guide that seemed to imply they really aren't worth using at all if you are going to use UAC instead of using them as a weapon. What kind of opinions do you guys have on that?

>Regarding the Guild if I stop actively playing I would stop paying dues, and if I lapse on my dues I get drummed out I think? Is that something you can come back from, like if I took a six month break could I come back and get back in still?

You'll get kicked out after three months of not paying dues, but it's just a matter of using your password to waltz back in and join again. Just don't lose your password and you'll be fine. (I've had mine saved as a Stormfront script and save my settings server side, and have never had a problem. Though I also back it up with a local settings export.) If you lose your password you'll need to bribe the door guard for a reminder, but it's not a huge deal, overall.


>Back, for a moment, on Ambushing (sort of) I've seen a lot of stuff on how awesome Ambushing with UAC is, but not a lot about it with brawling weapons. I browsed a monk guide that seemed to imply they really aren't worth using at all if you are going to use UAC instead of using them as a weapon. What kind of opinions do you guys have on that?

My rogue is a UAC ambusher. Some of the hand-held brawling weapons were set up to interact with unarmed combat such that they provide a boost to damage factor when using unarmed combat (jab/punch/grapple/kick) but they also incur a penalty to the Multiplier Modifier part of the equation. If you've got a hand-held brawling weapon that's particularly spiffy, you may find it to be worthwhile, but in my experience ambushing with just gloves via punch will do the job fine on its own.

I personally only see a draw for a hand-held brawling weapon on my UAC bard, who does not ambush, and I'm only willing to take the MM hit because of sonic flares. But I'm not a rabid number cruncher with piles of math in front of me.

---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."

>"There were times when I enjoyed it and there were times I found it annoying, but I'd hardly call it a horror unless you just absolutely lack patience."<

For myself, horror LM is and horror it remains. I mastered in every other Rogue guild skill long ago. I still have 30 ranks of LM to wade through.
For 2 months now, I have been working on extracting needle/jaws traps for components. Do you have ANY idea how rare those traps are? I had to open something
like 200 boxes to get the 5 components I needed for 1 rep.

You can trade Guild tasks, but it sets you back by 1 task. And there is no guarantee that you won't get the same task again. It's a bit broken. If you are Premium, you can
use a boost that allows you to change an Adventurer Guild task, but Rogue Guild tasks have no such option ... unless you want to pay for it with Simucoins, of course. Simu
would be more than pleased to allow you to swap Guild tasks in return for CASH.

Part of the problem is that I am combat focused; I don't sit on my butt for hours on end in the East Tower, praying for a
customer to come by. I'll dedicate maybe 1 hour a day to picking, and then I am off to do other stuff.

Couple things:

A) you can't triple in Ambush, only double.
B) IMO, there is a bit of a plateau at about 40 ranks in ambush (140 skill), after that it levels off pretty well, but you will need to maintain 2x training to hit where you want regularly.
C) There are a lot of people going to the NPC locksmith, and I don't think you can make a picking only character (I wouldn't sacrifice combat success for picking success). You should be able to pick all your own boxes with 2x and lore (after 60 or so, lore becomes more important).
D) You can completely master LM with only your own boxes, but it definitely helps to pick for the public.
E) if you get kicked out (from inactivity) you can find a master and get re-inducted. All your previous ranks will be restored.
F) Ambushing with UAC seems pretty cool, and you can also use a sai (puncture only brawling weapon) to ambush eyes if you'd like. But UAC and weaponry don't really mix.

((I'd like to apologize in advance for the wall of text, I'll try to add a TL;DR paragraph at the end.))

I've been doing some more digging. I'm certainly still no brighter than a kobold when it comes to all the ins and outs of higher level adventuring. But I've been trying to piece together how stats work, what bonuses apply to which skills, how the skills function numerically, that kind of thing. One of the questions I've come up with initially, again regarding race, is just how much of a difference those bonuses can make in the long term. At a glance it seems like racial choice is really only a potential detriment in the first few levels and then, as skill training and equipment improves, it becomes less important. But I'm working this out as I type so bear with me.

Let's assume, as a new Rogue, that I'm using the build guide provided on the wiki (https://gswiki.play.net/A_beginner%27s_guide_to_playing_a_rogue) Without scrolling to the bottom to see their sample builds, my stats would look something like this (allowing for a non-race for uniformity-sake here, since race doesn't have an effect on creation as far as I know);

Stats: Normal (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 60 (5)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25)
Agility (AGL): 100 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 90 (20)
Aura (AUR): 70 (10)
Logic (LOG): 50 (0)
Intuition (INT): 50 (0)
Wisdom (WIS): 20 (-15)
Influence (INF): 20 (-15)

And my TP's should look something like this;

PhysTP - 47
MentTP - 36

(Following along with the Character Creation tool already brings me to an oddity, either the math is wrong on the tool or on the wiki since I instead have 57 and 36. Considering this is how a character is made, we'll just roll with the 57 for now.)

Then, following the advice of that build (and being new to the game) I could reasonably come up with this build for skills;

Skills:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 5 1
Shield Use.........................| 10 2
Combat Maneuvers...................| 10 2
Edged Weapons......................| 10 2
Ambush.............................| 10 2
Physical Fitness...................| 10 2
Dodging............................| 10 2
Arcane Symbols.....................| 5 1
Survival...........................| 10 2
Disarming Traps....................| 10 2
Picking Locks......................| 10 2
Stalking and Hiding................| 10 2
Perception.........................| 10 2
Climbing...........................| 10 2
Swimming...........................| 10 2
First Aide.........................| 5 1

This leaves me with PhysTP - 1 and MentTP - 1. Seems damned close to me, so now comes my running of the formulas I can find on the wiki (again, the first source most players are going to check I assume).

I figured I'd start with the first few things people are going to question, like AS and DS. I saw somewhere that Thrown Weapons are not really good and Rogues don't sling spells to my knowledge, so I'm checking just Melee and Ranged. Initially, without accounting for racial bonuses and assuming double training in whichever weapon skill chosen I see these numbers popping up;

Melee=(StrB)25+(WeapS)10+(CMAN/2)1=+36AS
Ranged=(DexB)25+(RangeS)10=+35AS

At this low level a drop in your ability to attack can be devastating and is the first place I really see your race making a huge difference. At the lowest end Burghal Gnomes and Halflings see their MeleeAS drop to +22! While at the highest a Giantman will rise to +51 at level 0. That Giantman could drop his starting Strength by 30 points and hit as hard or harder (basically) than more than half the other races. Alternatively, that same Halfling starts out with +50 for RangedAS while the Giantman would suffer with a measely +30. Looking at the racial stats as far as my starting AS goes if I have a negative bonus to Strength there is no reason not to at least start with Ranged and swap skills before 20 to compensate. Alternately, everyone starts out "ok" at Ranged (the Giantmen being the only negative modifier, and not a huge one all things considered) and some races really excel at it, like Halflings. The question left here is how important at 30, 60, or Cap is that bonus to AS? I mean, the lowest penalty is compensated by 3 ranks in your weapon of choice, and the highest bonus is equivalent to 3 extra ranks. I would see the extra TP's for being able to skimp on weapon skill as a bonus, but really how much bonus is it?

Moving on to DS, my ability to stay alive! Barring hitpoints of course. I just hate getting hit. For the Generic Defense numbers I'm willing to just assume Average conditions for a +0. Since DS is a four number equation I'll figure them as Evade, then Block, then Parry, then the Total DS;

(I think you start with Full Leathers? And we'll assume a small shield and Defensive.)
((I also am assuming that where they write "Ranks" they meant "Skill" just because everything else I've seen for skills seems to imply that the Skill Bonus is used, not the flat Rank?))

Evade - Base Value = (DodgeS)10+(AgiB)25+(truncIntB/4)0=+35
Evade Melee = (((BV)35(ArmorHind)1*(ShieldFactor).78)-(ShieldSizePen)0))(StanceMod)1=27.3
(I think that gets truncated to just 27?)
Evade Ranged = ((BV)35(ArmorHind)1*(ShieldFactor).78*1)1.5=40.5
(Which rounds up, to 41. The initial result is truncated before multiplying by 1.5)

Block - Base Value = (ShieldS)10+(truncStrB/4)6+(truncDexB/4)6=+22
Block Melee = (((BV)22(ShieldSize).85(Stance)1)/1.5)+20(shield bonus) = +32
Block Ranged = (((BV)22(ShieldSize)1.2*(ShieldSizeB)-8)1)/1.5+20(shield bonus) = +32

Parry - Base Value = (WeapS)10+(truncStrB/4)6+(truncDexB/4)6 = +22
Parry OHMelee = ((BV)22*(StanceM).7)+(StanceB)50 = +65
Parry Ranged = ((RangedS)10+(truncPercep/2)5+(truncAmb/2)5*(StanceMod).45)+(StanceB)50 = +59

Total DS (Melee) = 0+27+32+65 = +124
Total DS (Melee v Ranged) = 0+41+32+0 = +73
Total DS (w/ RangedWeap) = 0+35+0+59 = +94 (I assume that without a shield there's no Blocking)

At lowest the Evade Base drops to 30 giving us EvM=23 and EvR=35 and at highest we get EvBase=50 (elf) and EvM=39, EvR=59. The other two are a bit more complicated to see a simple effect from race because almost all of the races with a bonus in either Strength or Dexterity have a penalty in the other. Using the Halfling example Block Base becomes 10+2+10=22 because they have the lowest Str penalty and compensate with the highest Dex bonus. Alterantely with a Giantman its 10+10+5=25, coming out at a small bonus because its Dex penalty isn't as low as its Str bonus. In this case I would argue that this shows a bonus to Strength, just as far as Defense goes, can trump a bonus in Dexterity or Agility simply because the bonuses in Strength are bigger than the penalties in Dexterity or Agility.

Next up on my list was Roundtime Reduction, and since this is exclusive to the Dex and Agi stats, Race really does play a role. It can define, if you want the fastest roundtimes, which weapons you choose to use racially. I think the table on the wiki explains it about as well as anything. Similarly health points have their maximum based on race, but their base and gain are from your Strength and Constitution. With these stats it's a base of 16hp. Lowest here would be +5hp for Dark Elves. The highest would be +8hp for Dwarves (because of ConBonus) or Giantmen (because of highest HP per rank). Defensively again the sturdier races seem to win out simply because at a lower level the (ahem) wimpier races don't significantly enhance their basic defenses.

Moving on we get to the Rogue specific end of things. Starting with Ambush I see via the wiki that the skill alone determines the effectiveness of your ambush, and (I assume) that the AgiDex to reduce roundtime is in effect. Since it's based on the bonus here the Halfling, right out of the gate, gets up to -5 to his roundtime if I'm reading the table correctly (Bonus adds to 75 at max attribute, which puts them in the 68-82 category for a 5 second roundtime reduction) whereas the Giantman shares the worst possible natural bonus at 3 seconds with the Dwarf, even the Half-Krolvin squeaks out a 4 second reduction. So Ambush is based more or less on skill ranks alone with stats kicking in for roundtime, which is admittedly nice to avoid being caught with your metaphorical pants around your ankles if the strike doesn't kill.

When you get into Disarming and Lockpicking the first, most frustrating thing I've seen so far, is a complete lack of information as to how Disarm actual works in conjunction with Perception to locate a trap. Or if any of my attributes really have any influence on it, like intuition or discipline. The closest I get is in the Locksmithing Guide originally posted by MOURNE apparently that indicates Dexterity helps with picking and disarming while Intuition helps with detection. Otherwise all I'm finding is that if you don't want to cut your hand off or kill everyone in the room you better at least double train Disarm and Perception. After that it's cake, Picking has a formula.

(I realize the likelihood of picking ANYTHING at 0 is basically nil, but bear with me. You do start with a copper pick.)

(PickingS)10+(DexB)25*(PickMod)1) + (lock diff) + d100

So at this baseline, if I'm understanding correctly, you could reliably pick Primitive locks (max of -35, which would only require a roll of 2 or better since a 1 always fails?) and might be ok with Rudimentary (max at -75). Even as a Giantman you'd only need a roll of 6 or better to get Primitive and 46 to get any Rudimentary, but as a Halfling you might even reliably be picking Extremely Easy locks if they came your way. So theoretically if you're picking at level you're likely to be able to pick anything no matter who you are, but have a slightly easier time at the get-go as a more nimble-fingered race.

Stalk and Hide is another of the formula-less skills, but it does say that Discipline is involved with both the initial Hide check and then remaining in Hiding. Agility is only factored into staying hidden, not when you initially Hide. Still that means our baseline attribute bonus is a total of 45 and +10 from skill. This points out to me that, interestingly enough, while the Giantman has to have skill to overcome his Agility penalty and remain hidden an Elf with the same stats might have a harder time actually Hiding due to their low Discipline, but will be alright staying hidden because of the balancing effect of their high Agility. Similarly a Dark Elf would see their total attribute bonus drop to 40 +skill to remain hiding.

Finally Arcane Symbols supposedly helps with finding certain traps like Scarabs and Glyphs, but with no formulas to compare it to I have no basis for just how useful it is, nor how early it becomes useful based on when those traps might start appearing in loot. Alternately it can be used for Scroll Activation to get access to things like Lock Lore if you don't self-cast and cant be arsed to find someone else who can (like me most of the time). So if I was going to grab a scroll and attempt to use it...

(Which again, super unlikely, but whatever. I'm also assuming I understand the wording of the Magical Knowledge Bonus to mean "I could cast this spell if I trained, but I haven't." Uncertain of the Armor Penalty...I'm guessing at this level it negates the Magical Knowledge because it's Full Leathers?)

(ASSkill)5+(StatMod for MinorEle(AuraB))10+(MagicKnow)40+(IntB)0+(LogB)0-(ArmorPen)40-(EncPen)0-(SpellLvlx5)15 = 0

So clearly at this level I could do nothing with a scroll of Lock Lore, which then begs the question could anyone without having to alter the given starting stats. The answer, to my knowledge, seems to be maybe? Since there is no multiplication involved in the formula for our attributes any race with a net bonus to Aura, Logic, or Intuition technically stands a chance. For example, a Burghal Gnome I think would end with a +20 trying to use that scroll, so as long as they rolled an 80 or above technically they could use it.

And that about does it. What I'm seeing here so far is that the racial bonuses can make a huge difference in the first couple of levels when you need all the help you can get regarding hunting, but that by the 20th or 30th training they get lost in the wash of skill training. For AS that +15 Strength Bonus from a Giantman is really nice in melee, but in 10 levels he could skip on his weapon training three times and still be on par with an Elf or a Half-Elf. His -5 in Dexterity and Agility may hinder his Stalk and Hide or his Picking a little bit, but if he triple trains for just one level he'll be on par with an Erithian, for two levels the same as a Burghal Gnome as long as those other Rogues only ever double train.

((TL;DR)) I guess what it boils down to is this...considering many of the basic rolls made involve a skill bonus in addition to an attribute bonus, does the racial attribute bonus really matter if you are using a basic stat layout like the one presented? I could see where it would make much more of a difference if early on (or even from level 0) you were trying to use optimized stats. Given an Elf and access to a stat calculator you could start Dex as low as 49 to end at 100 by level 100, which would mean a total Dex Bonus of 5 to start out. That seems a little bit low to me. And once you're at cap, lets assume you've maxed out Dexterity, maxed your training in Picking, and equal gear, mastery ranks, and spells...is there going to be a box that an Halfling can pick that a Giantman couldn't? It may seem like I'm a little hung up on this race thing, but I'm wondering if there isn't, ultimately, a difference in what can be done, is the difference in what can be done instead? Is the real bonus to the racial stat bonuses that I can "skip" a rank or two of training in some things because, statistically, I'll be just as good as someone who didn't have my bonus in the first place?

Additionally, is there anything here I've gotten wrong or misrepresented? I want to know, for example, is there a tool out there somewhere to gauge your ability to detect traps, or a table of trap difficulty like there is for the lock ranges? Also...if any of you have read the Beginner's Guide on the wiki, what do you think about it as a starting point for a Rogue? Does it gloss over things that should have been touched on, are there better guides out there for getting a feel for what training a Rogue is like beyond the first 15 levels?

As always, thanks so much for your wisdom guys!

<One of the questions I've come up with initially, again regarding race, is just how much of a difference those bonuses can make in the long term. At a glance it seems like racial choice is really only a potential detriment in the first few levels and then, as skill training and equipment improves, it becomes less important.>

Here's the thing, while you can largely train off the negatives of lower stat bonuses between the races for many things by the time you get to higher levels, you have to get to those higher levels first. While some players have done it faster, you should plan on it taking a minimum of 2.5-3 years to get to cap. Further, there are a lot of players that have played for decades and never had a capped character for a variety of reasons (focus more on RP then leveling, play multiple characters, only play a few hours a week, etc). Sure, the first 20-30 levels can go by fast, but the rate at which you can level drops as you gain levels.

How good you would be at level 75 or 100 doesn't matter if you get bogged down at level 18 or 22 and give up on the character. This is why we tend to recommend new players to pick between certain races for certain professions, we don't want to see them get frustrated early on and leave. If you want to pick a giantkin rogue, there's nothing stopping you... but in certain level ranges it's extremely frustrating getting characters like that to the point that stats stop mattering as much.

<So Ambush is based more or less on skill ranks alone with stats kicking in for roundtime, which is admittedly nice to avoid being caught with your metaphorical pants around your ankles if the strike doesn't kill.>

It's more then nice, it's imperative. For most rogues, the shadows are your first and best defense, DS, armor, dodging skill, etc should rarely even become a factor after a certain point (this is more true for snipers then melee characters, but the concept is important for both). If my sniper gets caught in the open long enough for a minotaur to swing at him, he has around a 50/50 chance of being a dead gnome... but, luckily due to my training, stats, and timing, minotaurs MIGHT get a swing in once every 10 hunts I go on (and when they do, it's usually cause of a typo).

Further, once you get past level 30ish, your deaths will come less from a single blow that depletes your HP and far more from crits or getting stunned/webbed/etc for long periods, usually from spells with rogues. If you're in the shadows when a critter takes it's action, they can't target you. General rule of thumb is that you want to swing/shoot your weapon in less then 5 seconds unless you know CMAN VANISH and have the stamina to use it regularly (some critters move faster then this, but not many).

Lastly, (and this applies to all professions, but to rogues to a slightly greater degree) the best stats and training possible aren't enough to keep anyone alive on their own when hunting. If you haven't developed good tactics by a certain point, you'll be dead as much as you're alive. This is another reason new players are recommended to go for certain races: to give them more leeway to learn what tactics work best for them and to fine tune them.

<And once you're at cap, lets assume you've maxed out Dexterity, maxed your training in Picking, and equal gear, mastery ranks, and spells...is there going to be a box that an Halfling can pick that a Giantman couldn't?>

Yes, locks range high enough in some areas that even a character with the best possible race/stats/tools/lore will need the open roll to be greater then 100 to pick (and in rare cases, can't be picked even then). Meaning that a giant or dwarf will never be able to successfully pick quite as many boxes as a dark elf or gnome.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.