Hello all. I am fairly new to GS, having poked around for a couple of months now, and I just decided to try a rogue. My other character is a pure caster, so there is a lot to learn!
First of all, stats. These are growth stats, because I'm apparently a masochist. I don't mind things being on the hard side, I just wanted to check to make sure I'm not going to have some very serious difficulties. Train 10, Dark Elf.
Strength (STR): 67 (8) ... 67 (8)
Constitution (CON): 79 (9) ... 79 (9)
Dexterity (DEX): 59 (14) ... 59 (14)
Agility (AGI): 42 (1) ... 42 (1)
Discipline (DIS): 79 (4) ... 79 (4)
Aura (AUR): 72 (21) ... 72 (21)
Logic (LOG): 76 (13) ... 76 (13)
Intuition (INT): 67 (13) ... 67 (13)
Wisdom (WIS): 89 (24) ... 89 (24)
Influence (INF): 72 (6) ... 72 (6)
And skills:
Two Weapon Combat..................| 102 24
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Combat Maneuvers...................| 50 10
Edged Weapons......................| 102 24
Ambush.............................| 96 22
Physical Fitness...................| 45 9
Dodging............................| 99 23
Disarming Traps....................| 82 18
Picking Locks......................| 82 18
Stalking and Hiding................| 126 33
Perception.........................| 82 18
Climbing...........................| 45 9
Swimming...........................| 45 9
First Aid..........................| 45 9
My main focus is on being very stealthy. That appeals to me as something I can use both in and out of combat (e.g. for RP or just sneaking around for fun). Secondary is being brutally effective at killing. Lockpicking seems like it would be fun too; I'd definitely like to give it a try if I can, but it takes a back seat, and I'm willing to drop it in favor of the other two if necessary.
And now for a slew of questions:
Two weapon combat. I picked this purely because it seems awesome. Is it the most awesome? Are there other techniques that are more damaging (i.e. higher DPS)? Or have other benefits?
Armor. What should I shoot for? The guide I read did not say much here. I was thinking double leathers but I really have no idea. I just assumed dodging and stealth would be better in lighter armor.
Combat maneuvers. These seem so neat. I was thinking of dropping First Aid or lowering Disarm/Locks in order to double in the skill. However, I am worried that I won't have the stamina to use a lot. On a related note, which should I get? I started with Shadow Mastery and Silent Strike, and I'm also considering Combat Mobility and Vanish for later. Groin Kick seems like it would be hilarious for RP.
Ambush. What does this actually DO? I have been hiding before attacking and I don't see any difference in any of the numbers.
Physical Fitness. Should I bump this up for more stamina?
Dodging. I've heard some people do 3x dodging. What are the benefits of going that route? Is it something I should consider given my build?
Disarm/Locks. How many ranks do I need to be able to pick my own boxes regularly? Is spending on these skills really worth it?
Hiding. Did I go too far here? What is the best way to use this skill in combat, and out?
First Aid. I thought I would throw some points in here to be able to tend in combat if necessary, but it's not super important to me. Curious whether you all think it's worthwhile.
Magic. I spend a lot of time with a wizard, so I thought maybe I'd go entirely magic-free. Thoughts? I also heard that putting more points into physical skills might give me some damage reducing ability. Is that true?
Multi-opponent. Should I consider this one at all?
Are there any other amazing skills or tricks that I'm missing?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
PAIRS
VERSIN
Re: New Rogue
08/01/2017 10:23 PM CDT
Welcome!
If you have not stumbled upon it yet, the GS Wiki (https://gswiki.play.net/Main_Page) will answer a lot of your questions. There is even a beginner's guide to playing a rogue.
Rogues are the jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none class, so everything you want to do you can do (eventually), you just will not the best at it. A lot of your questions can be answered with, how important is stealth to you? It sounds like it is key to your character, so emphasize that in your training. Stealth will be your defense, so lighter armor makes more sense than heavier armor. Train in the stealth CMANs first. Train more in stalking and hiding than dodging. Etc.
A core competency is ambushing, which lowers the stance of your foe and adds (hidden) critical weighting to your attack. The most common strategy is to aim for a body part - either the leg and then the neck, or right for the neck/eye. This is an opposite strategy of two weapon combat, which is more about 1,000 cuts with small weapons from the open than 1 deadly one from a big blade from hiding. Personally, when I came back to GS after a few years I wanted a deadly dual-wielding dagger rogue that would hop out of the shadows and stab everything to death, but the mechanics just do not work as well, so I made my rogue a sniper and my bard uses the flying blades of fury. Again you can do anything in GS with enough patience/willpower, and you can switch your skills for free before level 20, so try both and see what suits you.
Shadow Mastery and then Vanish are essential for you (vanish may be the best CMAN in the game). After that you have a lot of fun options: Surge, Truehand, and Weapon Specalization are good for offense; Divert for sticky situations; Toughness, Dirt Kick, and Dust Shroud for defense. I recommend against Combat Mobility since you will not be finding yourself prone and out in the open often, especially once you master Vanish. Regarding stamina, it is a limiting factor and there is not much you can really do to give yourself a ton. I would not sacrifice other goals for a marginal bump in stamina.
2x in locks/traps is generally enough to pick your like-level boxes. It's cheap enough that it makes sense to include, save your money. Save up points here and there to eventually get 404 (lock lore). Do not worry about training for redux (the "damage reducing ability" you are referencing).
Multi-Opponent Combat is not very helpful for an ambushing rogue, but essential for an open combat dual-wielder, since eventually you get multistrike.
Enjoy!
If you have not stumbled upon it yet, the GS Wiki (https://gswiki.play.net/Main_Page) will answer a lot of your questions. There is even a beginner's guide to playing a rogue.
Rogues are the jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none class, so everything you want to do you can do (eventually), you just will not the best at it. A lot of your questions can be answered with, how important is stealth to you? It sounds like it is key to your character, so emphasize that in your training. Stealth will be your defense, so lighter armor makes more sense than heavier armor. Train in the stealth CMANs first. Train more in stalking and hiding than dodging. Etc.
A core competency is ambushing, which lowers the stance of your foe and adds (hidden) critical weighting to your attack. The most common strategy is to aim for a body part - either the leg and then the neck, or right for the neck/eye. This is an opposite strategy of two weapon combat, which is more about 1,000 cuts with small weapons from the open than 1 deadly one from a big blade from hiding. Personally, when I came back to GS after a few years I wanted a deadly dual-wielding dagger rogue that would hop out of the shadows and stab everything to death, but the mechanics just do not work as well, so I made my rogue a sniper and my bard uses the flying blades of fury. Again you can do anything in GS with enough patience/willpower, and you can switch your skills for free before level 20, so try both and see what suits you.
Shadow Mastery and then Vanish are essential for you (vanish may be the best CMAN in the game). After that you have a lot of fun options: Surge, Truehand, and Weapon Specalization are good for offense; Divert for sticky situations; Toughness, Dirt Kick, and Dust Shroud for defense. I recommend against Combat Mobility since you will not be finding yourself prone and out in the open often, especially once you master Vanish. Regarding stamina, it is a limiting factor and there is not much you can really do to give yourself a ton. I would not sacrifice other goals for a marginal bump in stamina.
2x in locks/traps is generally enough to pick your like-level boxes. It's cheap enough that it makes sense to include, save your money. Save up points here and there to eventually get 404 (lock lore). Do not worry about training for redux (the "damage reducing ability" you are referencing).
Multi-Opponent Combat is not very helpful for an ambushing rogue, but essential for an open combat dual-wielder, since eventually you get multistrike.
Enjoy!
RATHBONER
Re: New Rogue
08/02/2017 06:54 AM CDT
TWC works well for ambushing rogues, if you want to do it, there's no reason not to.
To get the most stealth benefit from being in light armor, you still have to train it to get the armor points (or know a high level rogue that can adjust your armor for you). You can certainly leave the training to later without suffering much if you are going 3x hiding.
Its tough to double CM as a rogue and you should expect to need to give up other stuff that you'd like to have in order to do it. I wouldn't go below 1.5x though on your style of build.
If a critter has spawned in offensive stance, or has tried to hit you before you hid, you won't see much difference from an ambush yet. Ambush gives you pushdown (which makes the critter's stance act as if it was offensive, and is vital if the critter has turtled) and crit weighting. The more ambush ranks you train (i.e. the higher level yet get) the more effective these will be, but if the critter was in offensive anyway, and you were hitting it hard enough to get a maximum crit anyway, you won't see a difference. As you get higher training and the critters get heavier armor and turtle more, it will start making big differences.
I wouldn't have PF below 1x, so you should have a couple more ranks than you do at the moment, but you won't be able to make much difference to your stamina by training more in the short run. In the long run, it will become worth training over 1x, for defensive reasons as well as extra stamina, but treat 1x as base and if you have extra physical training points floating around as you level, its a good place to use them. Dark Elves have horrible stats for stamina (its the worst race in the game for stamina stats) so you'll have to get used to being short of stamina at low level.
The advantage of 3x dodge is that when you get swung at in the open, you don't get hit. Since you are likely to be wearing a slew of wiz spells, you aren't that likely to get hit anyway, but on the other hand you've tanked your AGI so maybe you could use the extra ranks. I liked it, but I was playing mainly from the open at mid level (just 1x hiding) and when I did switch to more hiding I had to give up a lot of dodge ranks. 2x should work for you, but if you find you have points spare and want better defense in the open, more dodge is an option.
2x pick/disarm plus lores is the norm for picking your own boxes. You'll get the vast majority until close to cap and don't even need that much if you are hunting critters with weak locks (giants tend to have weak boxes, undead strong ones, so a Sunfister is likely to need less than a Volner).
Self cast lore works best for boxes. The best way to push up redux is train a bit more PF, but you won't see any effect until level 20 or so. A few ranks AS is also a good idea for allowing you to cast from lore scrolls and get better chances on scarab and glyph traps. There's no need to rush for the lores but if you haven't got 404 by level 50 you should be thinking about it.
I reckon the main advantage of first aid is herb roundtime. If I don't want to skin I tend to train just under 0.5x to avoid the AG skinning tasks.
MOC is expensive and you can leave it for now, but you'll want it eventually.
...
I'd look to find points for more CM (to get it to 1.5x) and PF (to get it to 1x) than you have trained at the moment, and I'd drop FA back to 4 ranks to get some of them. I'd also lose at least half of that swimming unless you are in RR and actively need it. I'd put spare mental points into perception and AS for now and then look into drawing down on those for 401-404 sometime around level 40.
To get the most stealth benefit from being in light armor, you still have to train it to get the armor points (or know a high level rogue that can adjust your armor for you). You can certainly leave the training to later without suffering much if you are going 3x hiding.
Its tough to double CM as a rogue and you should expect to need to give up other stuff that you'd like to have in order to do it. I wouldn't go below 1.5x though on your style of build.
If a critter has spawned in offensive stance, or has tried to hit you before you hid, you won't see much difference from an ambush yet. Ambush gives you pushdown (which makes the critter's stance act as if it was offensive, and is vital if the critter has turtled) and crit weighting. The more ambush ranks you train (i.e. the higher level yet get) the more effective these will be, but if the critter was in offensive anyway, and you were hitting it hard enough to get a maximum crit anyway, you won't see a difference. As you get higher training and the critters get heavier armor and turtle more, it will start making big differences.
I wouldn't have PF below 1x, so you should have a couple more ranks than you do at the moment, but you won't be able to make much difference to your stamina by training more in the short run. In the long run, it will become worth training over 1x, for defensive reasons as well as extra stamina, but treat 1x as base and if you have extra physical training points floating around as you level, its a good place to use them. Dark Elves have horrible stats for stamina (its the worst race in the game for stamina stats) so you'll have to get used to being short of stamina at low level.
The advantage of 3x dodge is that when you get swung at in the open, you don't get hit. Since you are likely to be wearing a slew of wiz spells, you aren't that likely to get hit anyway, but on the other hand you've tanked your AGI so maybe you could use the extra ranks. I liked it, but I was playing mainly from the open at mid level (just 1x hiding) and when I did switch to more hiding I had to give up a lot of dodge ranks. 2x should work for you, but if you find you have points spare and want better defense in the open, more dodge is an option.
2x pick/disarm plus lores is the norm for picking your own boxes. You'll get the vast majority until close to cap and don't even need that much if you are hunting critters with weak locks (giants tend to have weak boxes, undead strong ones, so a Sunfister is likely to need less than a Volner).
Self cast lore works best for boxes. The best way to push up redux is train a bit more PF, but you won't see any effect until level 20 or so. A few ranks AS is also a good idea for allowing you to cast from lore scrolls and get better chances on scarab and glyph traps. There's no need to rush for the lores but if you haven't got 404 by level 50 you should be thinking about it.
I reckon the main advantage of first aid is herb roundtime. If I don't want to skin I tend to train just under 0.5x to avoid the AG skinning tasks.
MOC is expensive and you can leave it for now, but you'll want it eventually.
...
I'd look to find points for more CM (to get it to 1.5x) and PF (to get it to 1x) than you have trained at the moment, and I'd drop FA back to 4 ranks to get some of them. I'd also lose at least half of that swimming unless you are in RR and actively need it. I'd put spare mental points into perception and AS for now and then look into drawing down on those for 401-404 sometime around level 40.
PAIRS
Re: New Rogue
08/02/2017 08:29 PM CDT
Thank you both for the great advice. I feel more settled on a lot of my issues now.
>>There is even a beginner's guide to playing a rogue.
I did read this, but it was pretty basic and left me with all the questions I brought here. :)
>>The most common strategy is to aim for a body part - either the leg and then the neck, or right for the neck/eye. This is an opposite strategy of two weapon combat, which is more about 1,000 cuts with small weapons from the open than 1 deadly one from a big blade from hiding.
Interesting. So is a single weapon most common with ambushing? Is the DPS similar to TWC, or better? I'm now wondering why I'm spending all these points on TWC.
>>To get the most stealth benefit from being in light armor, you still have to train it to get the armor points (or know a high level rogue that can adjust your armor for you).
About how many points total? And what kind of adjusting is that? I take it not the warrior adjusting, which I've had.
>>I wouldn't have PF below 1x, so you should have a couple more ranks than you do at the moment
Just to be clear, the formula for 1x is "current level +2"? And for 2x it's "2x current level + 2"? This part is a little confusing to me.
>>I'd put spare mental points into perception and AS for now and then look into drawing down on those for 401-404 sometime around level 40.
Sorry, what is AS? Arcane Symbols?
Finally, I forgot to ask about society recommendations. I still haven't even chosen one on my first character because I really have no sense of which is helpful (or fun). My only thought for the rogue was that it seems like I should avoid Sunfist since its abilities are also based on stamina.
>>There is even a beginner's guide to playing a rogue.
I did read this, but it was pretty basic and left me with all the questions I brought here. :)
>>The most common strategy is to aim for a body part - either the leg and then the neck, or right for the neck/eye. This is an opposite strategy of two weapon combat, which is more about 1,000 cuts with small weapons from the open than 1 deadly one from a big blade from hiding.
Interesting. So is a single weapon most common with ambushing? Is the DPS similar to TWC, or better? I'm now wondering why I'm spending all these points on TWC.
>>To get the most stealth benefit from being in light armor, you still have to train it to get the armor points (or know a high level rogue that can adjust your armor for you).
About how many points total? And what kind of adjusting is that? I take it not the warrior adjusting, which I've had.
>>I wouldn't have PF below 1x, so you should have a couple more ranks than you do at the moment
Just to be clear, the formula for 1x is "current level +2"? And for 2x it's "2x current level + 2"? This part is a little confusing to me.
>>I'd put spare mental points into perception and AS for now and then look into drawing down on those for 401-404 sometime around level 40.
Sorry, what is AS? Arcane Symbols?
Finally, I forgot to ask about society recommendations. I still haven't even chosen one on my first character because I really have no sense of which is helpful (or fun). My only thought for the rogue was that it seems like I should avoid Sunfist since its abilities are also based on stamina.
OM1E5GA
Re: New Rogue
08/02/2017 09:16 PM CDT
<Interesting. So is a single weapon most common with ambushing? Is the DPS similar to TWC, or better? I'm now wondering why I'm spending all these points on TWC.>
Ambushing isn't about DPS, it's about one-shot crit kills, which is actually what most rogue builds are geared towards. This is why you want to aim for parts of the body that will either kill them outright or set them up to aim for such a body part.
A common tactic is to use a weapon that deals puncture damage and aim for the eyes while ambushing from hiding. This is because with a high enough endroll you're guaranteed to kill with a puncture crit to the eyes. Also, ambushing from hiding will push down a critter's stance and add crit weighting to an attack.
When ambushing from hiding, you can use pretty much any weapon choice you wish, OHE/shield, TWC, Unarmed, etc all have their strengths and drawbacks. TWC will give you an extra swing in case the first doesn't kill, but will mean a slightly higher RT preventing you from getting back into the shadows, for example.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Ambushing isn't about DPS, it's about one-shot crit kills, which is actually what most rogue builds are geared towards. This is why you want to aim for parts of the body that will either kill them outright or set them up to aim for such a body part.
A common tactic is to use a weapon that deals puncture damage and aim for the eyes while ambushing from hiding. This is because with a high enough endroll you're guaranteed to kill with a puncture crit to the eyes. Also, ambushing from hiding will push down a critter's stance and add crit weighting to an attack.
When ambushing from hiding, you can use pretty much any weapon choice you wish, OHE/shield, TWC, Unarmed, etc all have their strengths and drawbacks. TWC will give you an extra swing in case the first doesn't kill, but will mean a slightly higher RT preventing you from getting back into the shadows, for example.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
MOURNE
Re: New Rogue
08/02/2017 10:25 PM CDT
>Interesting. So is a single weapon most common with ambushing? Is the DPS similar to TWC, or better? I'm now wondering why I'm spending all these points on TWC.
Like Starchitin mentioned, as an ambushing rogue, your goal is fast crit kills, not raw damage attrition. TWC gives you another swing if you don't make the kill on the first, but is overall slower per strike, for all that it's also more damage attrition per strike. You could be very successful going OHE/Shield and using a dagger for eye shots, or sniping eyes with a bow (TP-cost effective), or punching faces with UAC (my personal favorite). Those who choose to TWC long-term are usually doing it for fun/style points, not because it has a significant advantage over other ambushing styles.
>>To get the most stealth benefit from being in light armor, you still have to train it to get the armor points (or know a high level rogue that can adjust your armor for you).
>About how many points total? And what kind of adjusting is that? I take it not the warrior adjusting, which I've had.
For the full five ranks of armored stealth, you'll want 200 ranks, which is very probably a post-cap goal. It works just like the armor skills that other squares get, like armor support (the most commonly used Warrior one).
https://gswiki.play.net/Armored_Stealth
>Just to be clear, the formula for 1x is "current level +2"? And for 2x it's "2x current level + 2"? This part is a little confusing to me.
1x is ranks equal to current level +1 (for level 0). You can train an additional +1 over that before you get bumped to the 2x skill cost, but it's pre-training for your next level, a feature introduced during the GS3->GS4 update to make things more confusing. ;)
So 2x would be double that - twice current level +2, with an additional +2 available, once again, due to pre-training for your next level.
If you don't feel like worrying about the trailing ranks, you can just consider 1x as 'until the skill cost doubles', or equate it to level, that extra 1-2 ranks is really only going to make a massive difference at various skill thresholds or when you're very low level.
>>I'd put spare mental points into perception and AS for now and then look into drawing down on those for 401-404 sometime around level 40.
>Sorry, what is AS? Arcane Symbols?
Yes, Arcane Symbols. So you can read scrolls for 403/404, and so you can spot/disarm scarab and glyph traps better. (You can also invest in Magic Item Use for using 403/404 imbeds, or just pick up 403/404 consumables that are offered sometimes at temporary festival shops.)
Re: Society - you can do well with any of them, it's really personal preference. Voln and GoS have the most recently updated mechanics, CoL is an old favorite but its shining strength is generally better for casters. Voln will allow you to be more self-sufficient when it comes to hunting undead, once you learn to bless your own weapons, and among other things will give you a group teleport option. GoS will use stamina (and mana), and you may end up wanting to 1.5x+ PF because of it, but if you pay attention you can manage both cman usage and sigil usage fine. Ultimately, it comes down to what society powers you find most appealing, so take a gander at each of them and decide accordingly.
https://gswiki.play.net/Council_of_Light
https://gswiki.play.net/Guardians_of_Sunfist
https://gswiki.play.net/Order_of_Voln
PS - Sunfist is easier/faster to master if you do so at low levels when the Grimswarm don't have as many tools in their toolbox due to spawning in your level range. Voln is faster to master at higher levels because your level and the critter level are both factors of favor gained. But don't let these optimal paths dissuade you from tackling society advancement whenever you choose.
---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 30 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
Like Starchitin mentioned, as an ambushing rogue, your goal is fast crit kills, not raw damage attrition. TWC gives you another swing if you don't make the kill on the first, but is overall slower per strike, for all that it's also more damage attrition per strike. You could be very successful going OHE/Shield and using a dagger for eye shots, or sniping eyes with a bow (TP-cost effective), or punching faces with UAC (my personal favorite). Those who choose to TWC long-term are usually doing it for fun/style points, not because it has a significant advantage over other ambushing styles.
>>To get the most stealth benefit from being in light armor, you still have to train it to get the armor points (or know a high level rogue that can adjust your armor for you).
>About how many points total? And what kind of adjusting is that? I take it not the warrior adjusting, which I've had.
For the full five ranks of armored stealth, you'll want 200 ranks, which is very probably a post-cap goal. It works just like the armor skills that other squares get, like armor support (the most commonly used Warrior one).
https://gswiki.play.net/Armored_Stealth
>Just to be clear, the formula for 1x is "current level +2"? And for 2x it's "2x current level + 2"? This part is a little confusing to me.
1x is ranks equal to current level +1 (for level 0). You can train an additional +1 over that before you get bumped to the 2x skill cost, but it's pre-training for your next level, a feature introduced during the GS3->GS4 update to make things more confusing. ;)
So 2x would be double that - twice current level +2, with an additional +2 available, once again, due to pre-training for your next level.
If you don't feel like worrying about the trailing ranks, you can just consider 1x as 'until the skill cost doubles', or equate it to level, that extra 1-2 ranks is really only going to make a massive difference at various skill thresholds or when you're very low level.
>>I'd put spare mental points into perception and AS for now and then look into drawing down on those for 401-404 sometime around level 40.
>Sorry, what is AS? Arcane Symbols?
Yes, Arcane Symbols. So you can read scrolls for 403/404, and so you can spot/disarm scarab and glyph traps better. (You can also invest in Magic Item Use for using 403/404 imbeds, or just pick up 403/404 consumables that are offered sometimes at temporary festival shops.)
Re: Society - you can do well with any of them, it's really personal preference. Voln and GoS have the most recently updated mechanics, CoL is an old favorite but its shining strength is generally better for casters. Voln will allow you to be more self-sufficient when it comes to hunting undead, once you learn to bless your own weapons, and among other things will give you a group teleport option. GoS will use stamina (and mana), and you may end up wanting to 1.5x+ PF because of it, but if you pay attention you can manage both cman usage and sigil usage fine. Ultimately, it comes down to what society powers you find most appealing, so take a gander at each of them and decide accordingly.
https://gswiki.play.net/Council_of_Light
https://gswiki.play.net/Guardians_of_Sunfist
https://gswiki.play.net/Order_of_Voln
PS - Sunfist is easier/faster to master if you do so at low levels when the Grimswarm don't have as many tools in their toolbox due to spawning in your level range. Voln is faster to master at higher levels because your level and the critter level are both factors of favor gained. But don't let these optimal paths dissuade you from tackling society advancement whenever you choose.
---
Cendadric says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 30 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
THROGG
Re: New Rogue
08/02/2017 10:48 PM CDT
Unarmed combat uses a totally different system from weapons, and is more dependent on level comparison than AS:DS ratio. I personally prefer it. Sniping is the third
combat possibility, but I have no personal experience in this mode, so cannot comment.
Shadow Mastery is excellent, especially for the reduced sneaking RT. Vanish can save your butt in combat, but it is rather stamina costly. In addition, success
using vanish is a little less than with ordinary hiding.
You will want at least 1x in Fitness, to get the stamina needed for your maneuvers.
CMan stance Asp is quite helpful; get at least 2 ranks.
Armor skills: You actually have 2 choices, stealth and evasion. A bit of a toss up here. I went with evasion, but if you chose stealth instead, I would have no strong objections.
I went with heavier armor ... currently wearing 6X HCP Hauberk, but if you grab some of the old FGB, that would serve you well also.
Shield: I went with small shield focus, and concentrated on shielded brawler since I use UAC. However, for the last few trainings I have been fighting with both hands empty,
making this somewhat redundant. If you use a weapon to ambush, however, shield use has no drawbacks. (Holding a shield reduces your UAC attack effectiveness somewhat, but has
no adverse effect on weapon ambushing).
combat possibility, but I have no personal experience in this mode, so cannot comment.
Shadow Mastery is excellent, especially for the reduced sneaking RT. Vanish can save your butt in combat, but it is rather stamina costly. In addition, success
using vanish is a little less than with ordinary hiding.
You will want at least 1x in Fitness, to get the stamina needed for your maneuvers.
CMan stance Asp is quite helpful; get at least 2 ranks.
Armor skills: You actually have 2 choices, stealth and evasion. A bit of a toss up here. I went with evasion, but if you chose stealth instead, I would have no strong objections.
I went with heavier armor ... currently wearing 6X HCP Hauberk, but if you grab some of the old FGB, that would serve you well also.
Shield: I went with small shield focus, and concentrated on shielded brawler since I use UAC. However, for the last few trainings I have been fighting with both hands empty,
making this somewhat redundant. If you use a weapon to ambush, however, shield use has no drawbacks. (Holding a shield reduces your UAC attack effectiveness somewhat, but has
no adverse effect on weapon ambushing).
RATHBONER
Re: New Rogue
08/03/2017 06:44 AM CDT
>Just to be clear, the formula for 1x is "current level +2"? And for 2x it's "2x current level + 2"? This part is a little confusing to me.
It can be both. Mechanical effects are based on level, training point costs on level+2, and training points available on level+1.
You get training points for level 0 and for the level you are working towards, so at level 10 you have between 11 and 12 levels worth of training points. You pay the 1x cost for 12 ranks though if your plan was really tight you wouldn't have the points for the 12th rank until just before you levelled.
If you are really tight on points and training ranks as soon as the points become available, 1x would mean you had 11 ranks (level+2) just before you hit level 10 and then trained the 12th at some point during the level. If you aren't really tight on points you would train the 12th rank the moment you hit level 10.
Stuff thats important should be trained as soon as possible, so those skills will normally be be level+2, e.g. your weapon is 24 ranks at level 10.
Stuff thats not quite so important would get trained a little later, e.g. if you haven't got far enough towards level 11 yet, TWC might be at 22 ranks and waiting on points for 23 and 24, but all your base should be at level+2 just before you hit the next level.
Stuff thats constrained by level would be trained according to its mechanics. e.g. in your case if you wanted the most First Aid you could have without getting skinning tasks, that would be 4 ranks at level 10 because it needs to be less than level/2. If you were training perception for archery, some benefits for that are capped at 2x, so you'd stop at 20 ranks at level 10.
>Interesting. So is a single weapon most common with ambushing? Is the DPS similar to TWC, or better? I'm now wondering why I'm spending all these points on TWC.
Sword and board is more common than TWC but there are reasons to TWC ambush. Not every crit kills, sometimes attacks are evaded and two chances are better than one. And then there's dervish. https://gswiki.play.net/Whirling_Dervish
>About how many points total? And what kind of adjusting is that? I take it not the warrior adjusting, which I've had.
Rogues can learn armor evasion and stealth. The less armor you wear the more benefit you get from armor adjusted for stealth. Lots of points, its not worth training for them now, but it might be something you did mid-high level.
>Finally, I forgot to ask about society recommendations.
They all have advantages and disadvantages. If you prefer hunting undead, Voln (its only slower below level 20, favor required goes up about as fast with level as favor generation post level 20), if you like hunting humanoids, GoS. If you want to master NOW, CoL. A lot of undead need to be bled out, so there's an additional reason for TWC if you choose Voln.
It can be both. Mechanical effects are based on level, training point costs on level+2, and training points available on level+1.
You get training points for level 0 and for the level you are working towards, so at level 10 you have between 11 and 12 levels worth of training points. You pay the 1x cost for 12 ranks though if your plan was really tight you wouldn't have the points for the 12th rank until just before you levelled.
If you are really tight on points and training ranks as soon as the points become available, 1x would mean you had 11 ranks (level+2) just before you hit level 10 and then trained the 12th at some point during the level. If you aren't really tight on points you would train the 12th rank the moment you hit level 10.
Stuff thats important should be trained as soon as possible, so those skills will normally be be level+2, e.g. your weapon is 24 ranks at level 10.
Stuff thats not quite so important would get trained a little later, e.g. if you haven't got far enough towards level 11 yet, TWC might be at 22 ranks and waiting on points for 23 and 24, but all your base should be at level+2 just before you hit the next level.
Stuff thats constrained by level would be trained according to its mechanics. e.g. in your case if you wanted the most First Aid you could have without getting skinning tasks, that would be 4 ranks at level 10 because it needs to be less than level/2. If you were training perception for archery, some benefits for that are capped at 2x, so you'd stop at 20 ranks at level 10.
>Interesting. So is a single weapon most common with ambushing? Is the DPS similar to TWC, or better? I'm now wondering why I'm spending all these points on TWC.
Sword and board is more common than TWC but there are reasons to TWC ambush. Not every crit kills, sometimes attacks are evaded and two chances are better than one. And then there's dervish. https://gswiki.play.net/Whirling_Dervish
>About how many points total? And what kind of adjusting is that? I take it not the warrior adjusting, which I've had.
Rogues can learn armor evasion and stealth. The less armor you wear the more benefit you get from armor adjusted for stealth. Lots of points, its not worth training for them now, but it might be something you did mid-high level.
>Finally, I forgot to ask about society recommendations.
They all have advantages and disadvantages. If you prefer hunting undead, Voln (its only slower below level 20, favor required goes up about as fast with level as favor generation post level 20), if you like hunting humanoids, GoS. If you want to master NOW, CoL. A lot of undead need to be bled out, so there's an additional reason for TWC if you choose Voln.
VERSIN
Re: New Rogue
08/03/2017 09:35 AM CDT
All good advice here. I will just add re: armor that a common stopping point is brig for stealthy rogues.
PAIRS
Re: New Rogue
08/03/2017 08:33 PM CDT
Thanks once again for so much thoughtful advice! I am in your debt.
>>Ambushing isn't about DPS, it's about one-shot crit kills, which is actually what most rogue builds are geared towards.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I only really care about killing as quickly as possible. So it does sound like one-handed ambushing is the way to go for me. I appreciate the advice on UAC and sniping, but for style reasons I'd rather have a melee weapon.
>>A common tactic is to use a weapon that deals puncture damage and aim for the eyes while ambushing from hiding.
I tested this out yesterday and was missing my aimed spots all the time. I assume it must take a lot of skill. Also, what are some good puncture weapons?
>>You get training points for level 0 and for the level you are working towards, so at level 10 you have between 11 and 12 levels worth of training points. You pay the 1x cost for 12 ranks though if your plan was really tight you wouldn't have the points for the 12th rank until just before you levelled.
Thank you. This has really crystallized it for me.
>>Armor skills: You actually have 2 choices, stealth and evasion. A bit of a toss up here. I went with evasion, but if you chose stealth instead, I would have no strong objections.
Good to know. I might go with evasion if I am able to do 3x stealth training, just to balance things a bit.
>>If you use a weapon to ambush, however, shield use has no drawbacks.
Also good to know. I heard that shield will negatively impact dodge, though? Maybe better to put spare points toward dodge?
>>I went with heavier armor ... currently wearing 6X HCP Hauberk, but if you grab some of the old FGB, that would serve you well also.
Forgive me, I don't know all the acronyms yet. What are HCP and FGB?
About the societies. I still need to go over them in more detail but on my initial reading, my feeling is something like this:
COL: Shining star is wracking, which does me no good. But mana/spirit abilities are right up my alley.
Voln: Big focus on undead, which aren't as susceptible to my style. Some good abilities though.
Sunfist: Warcamps look like a ton of fun, but the swarming is a bit concerning. Abilities look good but draw from stamina (ouch).
My instinct is to lean away from Voln just because the undead focus seems like it will be less fun for this build. I'd probably go for Sunfist in a heartbeat if the abilities weren't so stamina focused. Oh well, should be fun figuring it all out.
>>Ambushing isn't about DPS, it's about one-shot crit kills, which is actually what most rogue builds are geared towards.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I only really care about killing as quickly as possible. So it does sound like one-handed ambushing is the way to go for me. I appreciate the advice on UAC and sniping, but for style reasons I'd rather have a melee weapon.
>>A common tactic is to use a weapon that deals puncture damage and aim for the eyes while ambushing from hiding.
I tested this out yesterday and was missing my aimed spots all the time. I assume it must take a lot of skill. Also, what are some good puncture weapons?
>>You get training points for level 0 and for the level you are working towards, so at level 10 you have between 11 and 12 levels worth of training points. You pay the 1x cost for 12 ranks though if your plan was really tight you wouldn't have the points for the 12th rank until just before you levelled.
Thank you. This has really crystallized it for me.
>>Armor skills: You actually have 2 choices, stealth and evasion. A bit of a toss up here. I went with evasion, but if you chose stealth instead, I would have no strong objections.
Good to know. I might go with evasion if I am able to do 3x stealth training, just to balance things a bit.
>>If you use a weapon to ambush, however, shield use has no drawbacks.
Also good to know. I heard that shield will negatively impact dodge, though? Maybe better to put spare points toward dodge?
>>I went with heavier armor ... currently wearing 6X HCP Hauberk, but if you grab some of the old FGB, that would serve you well also.
Forgive me, I don't know all the acronyms yet. What are HCP and FGB?
About the societies. I still need to go over them in more detail but on my initial reading, my feeling is something like this:
COL: Shining star is wracking, which does me no good. But mana/spirit abilities are right up my alley.
Voln: Big focus on undead, which aren't as susceptible to my style. Some good abilities though.
Sunfist: Warcamps look like a ton of fun, but the swarming is a bit concerning. Abilities look good but draw from stamina (ouch).
My instinct is to lean away from Voln just because the undead focus seems like it will be less fun for this build. I'd probably go for Sunfist in a heartbeat if the abilities weren't so stamina focused. Oh well, should be fun figuring it all out.
THROGG
Re: New Rogue
08/03/2017 09:36 PM CDT
To answer some points:
HCP = Heavy crit padding. Helps your armor reduce the crit ranks of an enemy hit.
FGB = Forest Green brigandine. Brigandine armor with heavy crit padding, from a merchant long ago.
You will be lucky to find a set of this armor for under 10 million.
Puncturing ambush weapons: Daggers are a favorite due to their fast combat speed. Remember, aiming your attack,
whether from hiding or the open, adds RT to your attack time. However, yes, you need a fair amount of ambush skill
before you start getting accurate. Daggers are deadliest if aimed for the eye; however, the eye is a VERY small target.
Early on, you may have a lot better luck chopping something's leg off with an axe. This will make it prone, reducing its DS.
The extra RT associated with aiming is why I suggest learning Asp, which is a martial stance combat maneuver. Currently, I have
it set to take off 2 seconds from my combat action RT. It's also why I favor UAC, since fists are the fastest weapons. With Asp
in effect, I can leg a critter from ambush and incur only a 2 second RT before being able to rehide.
CoL needs a rework. Voln has regained a lot of its luster after the Symbol revision. The need to keep hunting undead to keep favor up
might be a bother, since undead tend to be perceptive and are harder than living foes to hide on. Sunfist relies on stamina, as do combat
maneuvers. You will need a lot of physical training if you go this route. Warcamps are hard to do solo but you can usually get a
group together.
You definitely want to get your rogue guild skills going as well. Some of them aren't that great, but I make decent use of sweep, and stun
maneuvers can save your butt if things go South.
HCP = Heavy crit padding. Helps your armor reduce the crit ranks of an enemy hit.
FGB = Forest Green brigandine. Brigandine armor with heavy crit padding, from a merchant long ago.
You will be lucky to find a set of this armor for under 10 million.
Puncturing ambush weapons: Daggers are a favorite due to their fast combat speed. Remember, aiming your attack,
whether from hiding or the open, adds RT to your attack time. However, yes, you need a fair amount of ambush skill
before you start getting accurate. Daggers are deadliest if aimed for the eye; however, the eye is a VERY small target.
Early on, you may have a lot better luck chopping something's leg off with an axe. This will make it prone, reducing its DS.
The extra RT associated with aiming is why I suggest learning Asp, which is a martial stance combat maneuver. Currently, I have
it set to take off 2 seconds from my combat action RT. It's also why I favor UAC, since fists are the fastest weapons. With Asp
in effect, I can leg a critter from ambush and incur only a 2 second RT before being able to rehide.
CoL needs a rework. Voln has regained a lot of its luster after the Symbol revision. The need to keep hunting undead to keep favor up
might be a bother, since undead tend to be perceptive and are harder than living foes to hide on. Sunfist relies on stamina, as do combat
maneuvers. You will need a lot of physical training if you go this route. Warcamps are hard to do solo but you can usually get a
group together.
You definitely want to get your rogue guild skills going as well. Some of them aren't that great, but I make decent use of sweep, and stun
maneuvers can save your butt if things go South.
OM1E5GA
Re: New Rogue
08/03/2017 09:47 PM CDT
<I tested this out yesterday and was missing my aimed spots all the time. I assume it must take a lot of skill. Also, what are some good puncture weapons?>
Eyes are the hardest body part to aim for, so it's prolly going to fail more often then not until level 25ish or 30ish... though you'll never hit the body part you aim for 100%of the time. There's a 5-10% failure rate you can't train off, though the "can't seem to find an opening" message that keeps you from swinging at all will go away with training.
Depending on how you train, below level 15ish you'll be best just stance dancing in the open with a falchion or broadsword (assuming you're training in OHE). Around level 15, you start aiming for the legs and maybe the head and you can start hiding around humanoid type critters (orcs, trolls, etc) that aren't super-perceptive a couple levels later. As you get better at aiming, you can start experimenting with going for the eyes rather then the head (some creatures are too tall to go straight for the eyes or head, you'll have to aim for their legs first to knock them down or use a CMAN that does the same thing).
Until you can aim for the eyes reliably, broadswords, longswords, falchions, and handaxes all make decent weapons. Once you start focusing on the eyes, you'll wand either a rapier or dagger for going for the eyes (the first has a higher DF, the second is faster) and one of the previously mentioned weapons for when you hunt things you need to leg first if you don't train in a cman that can make critters prone.
<Also good to know. I heard that shield will negatively impact dodge, though? Maybe better to put spare points toward dodge?>
How much you train in Shield and Dodge will determine what size shield you get. Bigger shields help more with blocking but hinder dodging while smaller shields allow you to dodge better but don't block as well. Most rogues carry either a medium or small shield (if they use a shield), but I'll let someone else post what training is best for each since I'm not confident in what's coming off the top of my head.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Eyes are the hardest body part to aim for, so it's prolly going to fail more often then not until level 25ish or 30ish... though you'll never hit the body part you aim for 100%of the time. There's a 5-10% failure rate you can't train off, though the "can't seem to find an opening" message that keeps you from swinging at all will go away with training.
Depending on how you train, below level 15ish you'll be best just stance dancing in the open with a falchion or broadsword (assuming you're training in OHE). Around level 15, you start aiming for the legs and maybe the head and you can start hiding around humanoid type critters (orcs, trolls, etc) that aren't super-perceptive a couple levels later. As you get better at aiming, you can start experimenting with going for the eyes rather then the head (some creatures are too tall to go straight for the eyes or head, you'll have to aim for their legs first to knock them down or use a CMAN that does the same thing).
Until you can aim for the eyes reliably, broadswords, longswords, falchions, and handaxes all make decent weapons. Once you start focusing on the eyes, you'll wand either a rapier or dagger for going for the eyes (the first has a higher DF, the second is faster) and one of the previously mentioned weapons for when you hunt things you need to leg first if you don't train in a cman that can make critters prone.
<Also good to know. I heard that shield will negatively impact dodge, though? Maybe better to put spare points toward dodge?>
How much you train in Shield and Dodge will determine what size shield you get. Bigger shields help more with blocking but hinder dodging while smaller shields allow you to dodge better but don't block as well. Most rogues carry either a medium or small shield (if they use a shield), but I'll let someone else post what training is best for each since I'm not confident in what's coming off the top of my head.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
PAIRS
Re: New Rogue
08/04/2017 05:01 PM CDT
>>How much you train in Shield and Dodge will determine what size shield you get.
So I imagine it's not recommended to go 0 shield and more dodge? How much training would it be for a small shield, say?
>>HCP and FGB
Thanks for these. I suppose I'll start saving my silvers.
>>CoL needs a rework. Voln has regained a lot of its luster after the Symbol revision. The need to keep hunting undead to keep favor up might be a bother, since undead tend to be perceptive and are harder than living foes to hide on. Sunfist relies on stamina, as do combat maneuvers.
This is a helpful perspective. Which route did you choose with your rogue?
So I imagine it's not recommended to go 0 shield and more dodge? How much training would it be for a small shield, say?
>>HCP and FGB
Thanks for these. I suppose I'll start saving my silvers.
>>CoL needs a rework. Voln has regained a lot of its luster after the Symbol revision. The need to keep hunting undead to keep favor up might be a bother, since undead tend to be perceptive and are harder than living foes to hide on. Sunfist relies on stamina, as do combat maneuvers.
This is a helpful perspective. Which route did you choose with your rogue?
PEREGRINEFALCON
Re: New Rogue
08/04/2017 05:18 PM CDT
>> >>How much you train in Shield and Dodge will determine what size shield you get.
>> So I imagine it's not recommended to go 0 shield and more dodge? How much training would it be for a small shield, say?
There's nothing wrong with 0 shield and more dodge. At lower levels, you could still use a small shield (or any shield) and gain some additional defense from holding it without much penalty to your dodge defense. As your training increases at some point you'll be better off without the shield's defense bonus though.
Shield size and heavier armors both apply a penalty to your Dodge DS. The armor hinderance is equal to 1/2 the armors action penalty. The shied size penalty is Shield Penalties: small 0.78, medium 0.70, large 0.62, tower 0.54
I have a small weapon ambushing rogue and while I agree with the theory that you are going for the one shot kill you still may want to consider having a weapon in each hand until you are able to do this reliably. I use a short sword and main gauche for a bit more punching power (plus the gauche provides some extra defense).
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
>> So I imagine it's not recommended to go 0 shield and more dodge? How much training would it be for a small shield, say?
There's nothing wrong with 0 shield and more dodge. At lower levels, you could still use a small shield (or any shield) and gain some additional defense from holding it without much penalty to your dodge defense. As your training increases at some point you'll be better off without the shield's defense bonus though.
Shield size and heavier armors both apply a penalty to your Dodge DS. The armor hinderance is equal to 1/2 the armors action penalty. The shied size penalty is Shield Penalties: small 0.78, medium 0.70, large 0.62, tower 0.54
I have a small weapon ambushing rogue and while I agree with the theory that you are going for the one shot kill you still may want to consider having a weapon in each hand until you are able to do this reliably. I use a short sword and main gauche for a bit more punching power (plus the gauche provides some extra defense).
-- Robert
You gesture at a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
The scream of tortured metal echoes around you as the lightning bolt strikes a colossal glaes-covered meteor.
OM1E5GA
Re: New Rogue
08/04/2017 11:03 PM CDT
<So I imagine it's not recommended to go 0 shield and more dodge? How much training would it be for a small shield, say?>
I would say train in either Shield Use or TWC, there's no sense in having your left hand empty.
If you have more ranks in Dodging then Shield, use a small shield. If you train in Dodging and Shields the same amount, use a medium shield. If you don't train in shields at all, train in TWC and get yerself a weapon for your left hand.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I would say train in either Shield Use or TWC, there's no sense in having your left hand empty.
If you have more ranks in Dodging then Shield, use a small shield. If you train in Dodging and Shields the same amount, use a medium shield. If you don't train in shields at all, train in TWC and get yerself a weapon for your left hand.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
THROGG
Re: New Rogue
08/05/2017 12:42 AM CDT
>>" there's no sense in having your left hand empty."<<
Unless you are using UAC for your attack mode, in which case you are more effective with the left hand empty. However, even though I use UAC,
I trained in shield 1x and got Shielded Brawler and Deflect Elements as my shield skills. That way, I can pull out a shield if I am facing an
opponent who can cast bolt/ball spells, and leave the left hand empty for other situations.
>>"Which route did you choose with your rogue?"<<
I went with Voln. The ability to LK yourself and call for help after you are dead is quite useful. Obviously, the goal is not to die at all, but hey, stuff happens.
With the addition of the Red Forest hunting area ... and the current reactivation of the Lich's Landing ... the dreaded "undead gap" has become less of a problem for
Landing based Voln members.
Unless you are using UAC for your attack mode, in which case you are more effective with the left hand empty. However, even though I use UAC,
I trained in shield 1x and got Shielded Brawler and Deflect Elements as my shield skills. That way, I can pull out a shield if I am facing an
opponent who can cast bolt/ball spells, and leave the left hand empty for other situations.
>>"Which route did you choose with your rogue?"<<
I went with Voln. The ability to LK yourself and call for help after you are dead is quite useful. Obviously, the goal is not to die at all, but hey, stuff happens.
With the addition of the Red Forest hunting area ... and the current reactivation of the Lich's Landing ... the dreaded "undead gap" has become less of a problem for
Landing based Voln members.
OM1E5GA
Re: New Rogue
08/05/2017 01:43 AM CDT
<Unless you are using UAC for your attack mode, in which case you are more effective with the left hand empty.>
I almost made that comment, but decided that since the OP is new and had already indicated they weren't going that route it was best to keep my comments relevant to their needs... esp since then I would have felt compelled to explain why they'd need to train in TWC to some extent anyway.
GS is complex enough that including details that won't affect a new player's build can easily cause confusion and frustration.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I almost made that comment, but decided that since the OP is new and had already indicated they weren't going that route it was best to keep my comments relevant to their needs... esp since then I would have felt compelled to explain why they'd need to train in TWC to some extent anyway.
GS is complex enough that including details that won't affect a new player's build can easily cause confusion and frustration.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
THROGG
Re: New Rogue
08/05/2017 02:08 AM CDT
Just wanted to point it out for purposes of completeness. Given the fact that we get a yearly fixskills, there may come a point in
the future where the OP might want to experiment with different combat styles.
the future where the OP might want to experiment with different combat styles.
RATHBONER
Re: New Rogue
08/05/2017 10:59 AM CDT
<So I imagine it's not recommended to go 0 shield and more dodge? How much training would it be for a small shield, say?>
I did this. Nasty heavy things, shields. My main attack method doesn't exist any more (fu on undead) but I used a single weapon from hiding on the likes of giants. I'm not so sure its the optimum with your race and stat settings, but I reckoned it was the way to go for a high AGI halfling.
I did this. Nasty heavy things, shields. My main attack method doesn't exist any more (fu on undead) but I used a single weapon from hiding on the likes of giants. I'm not so sure its the optimum with your race and stat settings, but I reckoned it was the way to go for a high AGI halfling.
THROGG
Re: New Rogue
08/05/2017 09:32 PM CDT
Halflings have to chop the legs off pretty much everything to be able to hit the neck/head/eyes. They also have crap health.
::starts humming the melody to the song "Short People":::
I really wish I had gone with Half-Krol instead of Dark Elf. Str/Con bonuses almost as good as a giantkin, with better Agi/Dex bonuses.
::starts humming the melody to the song "Short People":::
I really wish I had gone with Half-Krol instead of Dark Elf. Str/Con bonuses almost as good as a giantkin, with better Agi/Dex bonuses.
OM1E5GA
Re: New Rogue
08/06/2017 12:34 AM CDT
<Halflings have to chop the legs off pretty much everything to be able to hit the neck/head/eyes>
Gnomes too.... it's why mine went from OHE to Ranged around level 10. I can go straight for the eyes of anything that has eyes to go for and still be the most awesome race in Elanthia.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
Gnomes too.... it's why mine went from OHE to Ranged around level 10. I can go straight for the eyes of anything that has eyes to go for and still be the most awesome race in Elanthia.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
