I recently returned to GS and decided to roll a pure smite runestaff dark elf cleric. I am nearing the end of my first 30 days and while I have learned a lot from these message boards I still have some training questions. Here is my plan, in order of priority:

Cleric spells to lvl+21
Strive for 3x spells: learn 107, then 219, then 120
1x Spirit Lore Religion (to 40 ranks)
1x HP (2x if possible)
1x SMC (with 24 ranks by 18)
1x PF
1x Perception
.5x FA
20 ranks AS
20 ranks MIU
15 ranks Spirit Lore Summoning
10 ranks Spirit Lore Blessings
Climbing/Swimming/Survival as necessary
8 ranks Armor Use

A few questions:

- Stats: Max TPs (MTPs?) or growth? I doubt this character will make it to the cap, but 50 seems reasonable.
- Stopping Points: appropriate? For example, should I train 1x in Spirit Lore Religion for life, or devote the TPs after 40 ranks to other pursuits? How much MIU is necessary if I do not use wands? Any other relevant caps?
CMANs: Eventually I will want a few points. DISARM is useful? Does anyone use TRIP?
Extra Goodies: What else do people toss in later on? Brawling for the open-handed DS if you get caught mid-channel? Can MOC effect warding spells?

Thanks for the advice!

Here's a thread from the Player's Corner with another person asking the same questions...

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?87607-Half-elf-smite-runestaff-cleric-training-help!

Your listed skills look solid.

I'd probably increase Religion to 50 ranks. Rathboner is the expert on this so I'd wait for him to chime in about where to stop. If it was me, I'd stop at 50 until you hit cap and then revisit it later.

I don't think you can do anything wrong with stats unless you try hard. I don't know the math behind max stats vs max TP's. Maybe over the course of 100 levels you'll see a difference in speed and hunting ease, but I dunno. I don't have max stats and, aside from strength, I've never really had any issues. Strength was just annoying because of weapon swinging RT and overall encumbrance levels.

I have 20 ranks of MIU. I'd surely like to get that higher one day, but I've never really felt like I needed more. However, I'm not a super imbed user. If you have access to lots of high end goodies.. certainly increase it.

Do you have a pet wizard? You might want to look into training up Arcane Symbols to let you steal 507 and 508.

If you're going to use a runestaff, disarm is probably the best CMAN to get. I know a bunch of clerics use trip, but I think they're all polearm builds (can you trip with a runestaff?).

Brawling for sure at some point. In fact, I'd probably toss in 1 rank as soon as you can and get yourself some 4x handwraps from Tykel's back room. That's immediately 2 DS in offensive and 7 DS in defensive (earth shattering, I know).

Are you planning to hunt empty handed in offensive?

I think 5 ranks of MoC is something EVERY character should have. You're helping someone hunt something low level and just start mstriking :P it also has some defensive benefits and yes, helps 111 a bit.

I also think every character should have at least 10 ranks of stalking and hiding. It's just one of those life skills that's really fun and useful.

Hope this helps a bit. You're already on track pretty well so don't sweat it.

Guen is sort of semi retired; I only drag her out for rescues and invasions and stuff like the Lich King's tower. I looked up her data; here's current skill set. I picked up some wisdom enhancement items, as you can see. Stats aren't perfect but I don't care; they are good enough. I didn't bother with a stat cruncher, preferring to play it by ear. I need 5 more clerical spell ranks to max out her CS, but that's hardly a priority. Current CS is 513, which is generally adequate. I classify her as a pure caster since she doesn't use weapons, but this is clearly a very physical build.

>inf
Name: Guenhafyr vonZauberwalder Race: Giantman Profession: Cleric (shown as: Conveyor)
Gender: Female Age: 80 Expr: 10852395 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 100 (40)
Constitution (CON): 99 (34) ... 99 (34)
Dexterity (DEX): 94 (17) ... 94 (17)
Agility (AGI): 96 (18) ... 96 (18)
Discipline (DIS): 84 (17) ... 84 (17)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Logic (LOG): 99 (19) ... 99 (19)
Intuition (INT): 100 (25) ... 105 (27)
Wisdom (WIS): 100 (25) ... 113 (31)
Influence (INF): 73 (16) ... 73 (16)
Mana: 283 Silver: 0
>skill
Guenhafyr (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 130 35
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Brawling...........................| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 96 22
Magic Item Use.....................| 105 25
Harness Power......................| 202 102
Spirit Mana Control................| 120 30
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 50 10
Spiritual Lore - Religion..........| 160 60
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 90 20
Perception.........................| 140 40
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 170 70
First Aid..........................| 180 80

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 67

Spell Lists
Cleric.............................| 164
Training Points: 20 Phy 0 Mnt (1528 Phy converted to Mnt)

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

Thanks for the prompt responses! Brawling, MOC, and S&H all sound like worthy secondary goals. Brawling foremost since I am most vulnerable mid-channel. I skipped over cunning defense - sounds like a good CMAN. (Krakki says that TRIP works with a runestaff.) I will also try and boost up the AS/MIU, if only as a cheap spell rank (I am at 7.8 ranks/lvl). You are right that 3x spells is difficult, I'm at 2.8x and do not mind dropping a train or two to bulk up other areas.

RE: spell aiming, my thoughts are really go for a bolter or just leave it alone completely. I'm squeezed for TPs as is and enjoy smiting (so far).

Its pointless training brawling for channeling defense. More spells, or more MIU/AS in order to access more outside spells is a far better way to do it. The best way is tactical nous. Don't openhanded offensive channel when a critter is going to be swinging at you before you can switch stance. Its the pure's version of stance dancing.

Don't train anything that you wouldn't otherwise want for runestaff DS. Runestaff defense that comes free with magic skills you want anyway is good value. Purely for the DS, you are always better off training MnS spell ranks instead. If you haven't got to 3x in spells, don't train anything extra solely for runestaff DS. Training dodge is a rubbish use of TPs pre cap, but its better than training magic skills solely for runestaff DS. My most extreme smite build started out under 6 ranks per level and has significantly better DS than you'll get by turning spell ranks into extra runestaff ranks.

The reason I have for going past 40 in religion is 312. The damage boost you get from religion lore is as good or better than the boost you get from extra spells until somewhere in the 50-75 range. Its not a hard a fast breakpoint though, just gradually diminishing returns. Training 1x lore, putting the first 40 into religion, the next 25 into blessing and summoning and than back to religion is fine. Early on when you are just smiting, extra CS for 302 is usually worth more than the religion lore boosts, but the first 20-25 religion lore for 312 is much better than putting the points in spells. If you are going to be using 312 at level 12, you should have quite a few doubled ranks of lore to get those extra religion ranks. If you are never going to use 312 you can ignore lore completely for your first 20 levels and then catch up to 1x. (and if you are a bolt maniac rather than a smite maniac, summoning lore is the thing not religion)

Its not necessary to be squeezed for points. My first cleric used bolts, smite and THW but none individually as effectively as a character that concentrated on one. Eventually I cut out the bolting in order to really stack up lores for good quality chrisms at a relatively low level.

The big disadvantage of a purely CS build comes with group hunting. It drastically limits your options if you want to team up compared to a character with an AS attack as an option. You'll get to level 30 fastest with a pure smite build, but you'll find it much easier to make a contribution to a partner or a group if you have an AS option. Since you are enjoying what you are doing now, I recommend you stick with it, but if you find yourself frustrated due to not being able to contribute in a group situation fixskilling in 2x spell aim, 40 ranks MIU and a couple ranks MOC is a way to deal with it.

CMan is pretty pointless unless you are swinging a weapon. MOC is pretty pointless if you are purely CS. You can get modest defensive benefits, but they are things for training when you have 3x spells and points to spare.

>> My first cleric used bolts, smite and THW but none individually as effectively as a character that concentrated on one. <<

An interesting point, and succinctly put. A generalist has more options, but a specialist is better at a specific operation.

As an aside re bolting: clerics shine early on with 211 and 215. Unfortunately, the bonuses from these AS buffing spells remain static, while the buffs available to wizards and empaths rise in effectiveness with more spell ranks. Hence clerics later on come in a poor third when it comes to bolts (beating out sorcerers by a small margin), which is why I dumped bolting around 75 trains. Something similar happens with weapons; you reach a point of diminishing returns. I used THWs even as late as level 99, then fixskilled that method away also in favor of a pure CS build, since it was more effective combat wise. "Peaceful" empaths, oddly enough, are better with weapons; go figure.

>>Don't openhanded offensive channel when a critter is going to be swinging at you before you can switch stance. Its the pure's version of stance dancing.<<
>>The reason I have for going past 40 in religion is 312.<<

Another good point... but ... Rathboner, I have a question: is offensive stance channeling with both hands open even worth the risk? How much more damage is generated by this tactic (I myself have no real idea). Have you done any risk vs benefit analysis? (I.E., DS drop vs needing extra casts to finish a critter off ... which would be more dangerous?)

And yes, 312 rocks with a lot of lore; I am vaporizing stuff using 0 seconds charge from guarded stance, which is one reason why I ask the above question.


The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>I have seen this statement a few times but do not quite understand. Why are CS-based attacks not valuable in a group setting? Either way, if I start to get bored I will keep the bolting option in mind.<<

I think what is meant is that CS based spells are quite capable of generating an outright kill, so your weapon swinging comrades won't get in a hit. You can always amend this by using 312 and charging it to a full 6 seconds. This will give everyone else a chance to whack the critter before you do; in fact, in that case, it may be you who doesn't get a cast off, since they may kill the first.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

"Its pointless training brawling for channeling defense. More spells, or more MIU/AS in order to access more outside spells is a far better way to do it." -- Rathboner

---

I disagree.

However, I do agree with regards to each persons ease of getting those outside spells (and access to DB items). When I had access to a wizard.. I had incredibly easy access to everything (including 507 and 508). These days, I don't have easy access to anything beyond my own stuff.

147 health, forest green brigandine, 8x shield and 0 brawling.. go hunt OTF or the Temple self-spelled and tell me how that works out for you in the long run ;)

Now.. if you added that training in brawling BEFORE 100 is not really needed, then I'd agree with you a lot more.

>>The orbs squarely impact a wind wraith, discharging the pale blue energy over its entire being for 6055 points of damage!<<

Illustrating why, at high levels, this spell is not group friendly :P
A

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

Although, with that CS I suspect you are underhunting a bit. (Was that damage total a typo? 605 maybe instead of 6055?) Still, regardless of that, your post does give me an idea. I can check damage done vs my DS on my own, using various stances and open hand combinations, by casting at almost any target; it doesn't need to be same level. I am in the Landing right now, so I could even whack hill trolls or such; just need to compare the relative damage totals done with the various casting styles. Hmmm, I should also compare different charging times for 312. I hate doing research projects in general, but this should be fairly simple.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

That could be a repost from way back when 312 charging was uncapped yielding incredible damage albeit impractical.

Sorry for double posting, but other ways to boost the effective warding margin of these spells is to bind, web, stun, knockdown or otherwise incapacitate creatures. Just another reason web bolt is nice since a prone, webbed target is like +15-20 EWM in addition to any channeling bonus making your spells that much stronger. Web bolt/301/316, max channel bonus 312 or 317 for an extra +55-60 can add up.

>Again though, not sure how sustainable that path is post-cap. My CS is gimped because of it.

There is no reason whatsoever that a pure casting cleric couldn't be reasonably maximized for both CS and bolting (i.e. level+21 cleric spells, and 1x summoning lore). Heck you could probably 2x lore with that plan.

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