I'm just curious if something like this is possible? To what degree is this possible? Am I better off not wasting my time?
What sort of core training would you recommend?
I am very new to the game and it's mechanics so please don't assume I know ..well..anything about bards :)
SAXMAN
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/21/2013 03:11 PM CDT
Bards can be very good locksmiths, second only to rogues. Pick and disarm skills are fairly cheap, and you can double them. You have much cheaper access to the Minor Elemental spells, for your lock and trap lores, unlock and disarm spells, presence and piercing gaze. You also have Song of Luck which can be a godsend at times. Finally, you can sing to your boxes to determine the strength of the lock. Eventually you even get Song of Tonis which can help speed up your picking a bit.
There are some downsides. You can only double train the relevant skills, and even though they're cheap compared to everyone but rogues, rogues still get them much cheaper. You'll never have access to Lock Mastery (a rogue guild skill) so you will find boxes that are simply bard-proof (e.g. plated mithril or enruned). If you want to be a professional locksmith, picking well above your level, you will have to make some difficult choices. You will probably never be both an outstanding picker and an outstanding bard, but you can be decent at both. You can certainly pick your own boxes, at least, and that's not bad.
Open archery is a great choice for picking bards since some of the same skills and abilities apply to both (double perception, good dexterity, etc.) and it's relatively easy on the TPs, leaving more room for picking skills. The downside to archery for bards, I've found, is that dodge is quite expensive, and without it you'll be hurting for DS. This is offset slightly by Song of Mirrors, and later, Tonis. I make up for the rest with ample Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use, so I can buff up with extra spells. Arcane Symbols is also useful for pickers, for disarming scarabs and glyphs.
It's a fun but challenging path, less traveled but quite viable. If this sparks your interest and you want more details, feel free to ask away.
~ Heathyr and friends
There are some downsides. You can only double train the relevant skills, and even though they're cheap compared to everyone but rogues, rogues still get them much cheaper. You'll never have access to Lock Mastery (a rogue guild skill) so you will find boxes that are simply bard-proof (e.g. plated mithril or enruned). If you want to be a professional locksmith, picking well above your level, you will have to make some difficult choices. You will probably never be both an outstanding picker and an outstanding bard, but you can be decent at both. You can certainly pick your own boxes, at least, and that's not bad.
Open archery is a great choice for picking bards since some of the same skills and abilities apply to both (double perception, good dexterity, etc.) and it's relatively easy on the TPs, leaving more room for picking skills. The downside to archery for bards, I've found, is that dodge is quite expensive, and without it you'll be hurting for DS. This is offset slightly by Song of Mirrors, and later, Tonis. I make up for the rest with ample Arcane Symbols and Magic Item Use, so I can buff up with extra spells. Arcane Symbols is also useful for pickers, for disarming scarabs and glyphs.
It's a fun but challenging path, less traveled but quite viable. If this sparks your interest and you want more details, feel free to ask away.
~ Heathyr and friends
SAXMAN
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 08:45 PM CDT
I'm very interested, but I'm having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around a training plan. I downloaded Tsoran's spreadsheet, but I just can't figure out how to make this work. I don't mind which sort of combatant I am, whether caster or melee - either is fine. I don't expect to be able to do both equally well. I'd just like to be viable in the field as well as capable of picking boxes. It seems like that goal is just out of reach with training points.
CONCERA
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 08:51 PM CDT
>I'm very interested, but I'm having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around a training plan. I downloaded Tsoran's spreadsheet, but I just can't figure out how to make this work. I don't mind which sort of combatant I am, whether caster or melee - either is fine. I don't expect to be able to do both equally well. I'd just like to be viable in the field as well as capable of picking boxes. It seems like that goal is just out of reach with training points. -SAXMAN
I suppose the question is... do you want to be a bard who locksmiths.... and fights? Or a bard who fights... and locksmiths?
-Cait
I suppose the question is... do you want to be a bard who locksmiths.... and fights? Or a bard who fights... and locksmiths?
-Cait
LORDEVARIN
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 08:57 PM CDT
Sounds like he wants to be able to pick within 10 levels of himself, so he can open what he finds in the field. That should be fairly doable. Remember that as a bard you have access to Unlock, which is enhanced by Pick locks training. Nowhere near as much experience, but that'll serve you well in opening like-level boxes that prove outside your non-magical abilities.
SAXMAN
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 08:57 PM CDT
Can I be a locksmith and combat at level? How much locksmithing ability do I sacrifice if I choose fighter who locksmiths?
CONCERA
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 09:19 PM CDT
>Can I be a locksmith and combat at level? How much locksmithing ability do I sacrifice if I choose fighter who locksmiths? -SAXMAN
If you're willing to go open ranged, you should be able to keep up with your hunting AND your locksmithing. Will you be AS ACCOMPLISHED a hunter as a pure-combat bard? ...Probably not. But certainly you should be viable.
From what I am looking at my own bard-locksmith, I went open archery, no hide, no ambush.
Double in ranged, perception, picking locks, disarming
Single in armor, dodge, combat maneuvers, physical fitness, Arcane Symbols, Harness Power.
Spells were being singled (try to get to at least locklore and disarmlore before doing songs).
As long as you pick your hunting areas carefully, you should be pretty okay. Crossbows can be lots of fun if you're willing to work on the timing, and can make open archery very viable. With the bonuses from fletching, eblading your own arrows, a good crossbow, and kneeling, you should be golden, especially if you can find a wizard friend to give you some extra strength.
-Cait
If you're willing to go open ranged, you should be able to keep up with your hunting AND your locksmithing. Will you be AS ACCOMPLISHED a hunter as a pure-combat bard? ...Probably not. But certainly you should be viable.
From what I am looking at my own bard-locksmith, I went open archery, no hide, no ambush.
Double in ranged, perception, picking locks, disarming
Single in armor, dodge, combat maneuvers, physical fitness, Arcane Symbols, Harness Power.
Spells were being singled (try to get to at least locklore and disarmlore before doing songs).
As long as you pick your hunting areas carefully, you should be pretty okay. Crossbows can be lots of fun if you're willing to work on the timing, and can make open archery very viable. With the bonuses from fletching, eblading your own arrows, a good crossbow, and kneeling, you should be golden, especially if you can find a wizard friend to give you some extra strength.
-Cait
SAXMAN
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 09:39 PM CDT
Ok, assume I have very little experience in gs4 :)
I understand the training path, but you're saying use crossbows instead of a regular bow?
When you say pick my areas carefully, what should my criteria be?
Thank you very much for your help.
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 10:31 PM CDT
If you want to be a good locksmith who's also a bard, then what you do is double-train Picking Locks, Disarm, and Perception. Then pick a weapon and double-train in that. If you pick ranged as your primary weapon, you might find early levels tough, but you'll be pretty deadly as you approach 30ish. Pure casting bards are not viable until around 50th, so don't worry about going that route.
Crossbows are awesome. My lockpicking bard uses one exclusively. That said, they are a challenge, mechanically, and offer lower DS than bows. It's a hunting style quite different from any other and takes getting used to. Some people love it, some people hate it. If you have little experience in GS4, you might want to avoid the extra complication and risk of a crossbow. Ammo will give you enough headaches as is. :)
Assuming you do pick ranged, then add in:
1x Harness Power
1x Physical Fitness
1x Spells
1x Armor Use
If you can manage all that, then throw in some others:
Dodge: You really need this, especially if you pick up a crossbow, but it might be tough at first. Get as much as you can.
Arcane Symbols: You'll want about 15 ranks for scarabs and glyphs, and to get into the Broken Lands later.
Mental Mana Control: Helps some of our songs, like unraveling. 30 ranks is a good goal.
Climbing & Swimming: Pick up a few ranks as you need them.
Eventually, you might want to add lores:
Mental Lore: Manipulation: 15 ranks unlocks the single-target version of Sonic Disruption
Mental Lore: Telepathy: This increases the time between song renewal, as well as aids some other songs. Very useful.
Elemental Lore: Air: This helps several of our songs, like sonic weapon and armor. But if you're an archer, you don't really need this for a while. You may eventually want at least 30 ranks for Song of Tonis.
Everything else is pretty much optional. Season to taste.
If, on the other hand, you want to be a great bard who also picks locks...
Start the reverse way. Pick your weapon, double train that. Get your basics in, like HP, PF, etc. Then after you have everything you need, throw as much as you have left into your picking/disarm skills. I'd always keep Perception at 2x regardless, however. Missing traps bites.
For me, I started out as a locksmith who was also a bard, but over time the bard abilities became more important to me, so my picking suffered. I am now a bit more than single-trained in both picking and disarm. Thanks to some pretty nifty enhancive gloves I got from the Black Swan quest, I can still pick about 20 levels over my head (with luck--some difficult boxes still vex me). I can easily pick boxes of my own level fairly consistently. Because of diminishing returns, you can start to slack off on picking as you gain levels without entirely breaking your ability.
~ Heathyr and friends
Crossbows are awesome. My lockpicking bard uses one exclusively. That said, they are a challenge, mechanically, and offer lower DS than bows. It's a hunting style quite different from any other and takes getting used to. Some people love it, some people hate it. If you have little experience in GS4, you might want to avoid the extra complication and risk of a crossbow. Ammo will give you enough headaches as is. :)
Assuming you do pick ranged, then add in:
1x Harness Power
1x Physical Fitness
1x Spells
1x Armor Use
If you can manage all that, then throw in some others:
Dodge: You really need this, especially if you pick up a crossbow, but it might be tough at first. Get as much as you can.
Arcane Symbols: You'll want about 15 ranks for scarabs and glyphs, and to get into the Broken Lands later.
Mental Mana Control: Helps some of our songs, like unraveling. 30 ranks is a good goal.
Climbing & Swimming: Pick up a few ranks as you need them.
Eventually, you might want to add lores:
Mental Lore: Manipulation: 15 ranks unlocks the single-target version of Sonic Disruption
Mental Lore: Telepathy: This increases the time between song renewal, as well as aids some other songs. Very useful.
Elemental Lore: Air: This helps several of our songs, like sonic weapon and armor. But if you're an archer, you don't really need this for a while. You may eventually want at least 30 ranks for Song of Tonis.
Everything else is pretty much optional. Season to taste.
If, on the other hand, you want to be a great bard who also picks locks...
Start the reverse way. Pick your weapon, double train that. Get your basics in, like HP, PF, etc. Then after you have everything you need, throw as much as you have left into your picking/disarm skills. I'd always keep Perception at 2x regardless, however. Missing traps bites.
For me, I started out as a locksmith who was also a bard, but over time the bard abilities became more important to me, so my picking suffered. I am now a bit more than single-trained in both picking and disarm. Thanks to some pretty nifty enhancive gloves I got from the Black Swan quest, I can still pick about 20 levels over my head (with luck--some difficult boxes still vex me). I can easily pick boxes of my own level fairly consistently. Because of diminishing returns, you can start to slack off on picking as you gain levels without entirely breaking your ability.
~ Heathyr and friends
CONCERA
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 10:37 PM CDT
>I understand the training path, but you're saying use crossbows instead of a regular bow? -SAXMAN
I mention crossbows because they're typically used in the open, and when kneeling give you a bonus to your AS. They typically aren't as popular as regular short/composite/long bows because they are slower (cock and fire vs just fire) and aren't nearly as convenient for sniping from the shadows. The ranged articles on Krakiipedia can tell you more about that, and I believe that we have some lovely ranged bards who frequent the forums here that can chime in and fill in what I've missed.
>When you say pick my areas carefully, what should my criteria be? -SAXMAN
As a ranged user, you'll probably find that incorporeal and undead, especially incorporeal undead, will be much harder for you. Since you're not using shields, you'll be at a DS penalty, which means that you might want to be careful around things that also shoot arrows or throw elemental type spells at you.
What this boils down to tends to mean hunting in areas that have living humanoid/animal creatures that bleed and stun easily. You'll probably find yourself avoiding incorporeal, undead, elementals, or places that spellcast a lot. As a locksmith, you'll also probably be wanting to focus on creatures that drop boxes, which also TEND to be humanoids and the more intelligent animals.
-Cait
I mention crossbows because they're typically used in the open, and when kneeling give you a bonus to your AS. They typically aren't as popular as regular short/composite/long bows because they are slower (cock and fire vs just fire) and aren't nearly as convenient for sniping from the shadows. The ranged articles on Krakiipedia can tell you more about that, and I believe that we have some lovely ranged bards who frequent the forums here that can chime in and fill in what I've missed.
>When you say pick my areas carefully, what should my criteria be? -SAXMAN
As a ranged user, you'll probably find that incorporeal and undead, especially incorporeal undead, will be much harder for you. Since you're not using shields, you'll be at a DS penalty, which means that you might want to be careful around things that also shoot arrows or throw elemental type spells at you.
What this boils down to tends to mean hunting in areas that have living humanoid/animal creatures that bleed and stun easily. You'll probably find yourself avoiding incorporeal, undead, elementals, or places that spellcast a lot. As a locksmith, you'll also probably be wanting to focus on creatures that drop boxes, which also TEND to be humanoids and the more intelligent animals.
-Cait
HALDRIK
Re: Locksmith Bard?
05/22/2013 10:59 PM CDT
>> When you say pick my areas carefully, what should my criteria be?
As an Archer Bard I can help out here. I have 0 cman though because im 1.5-1.75 in spells. (No locksmithing.)
Stay away from areas with magic users. You are an elemental magic user so your TD is going to be much lower. Stay away from any areas with ranged attacks. Since you will be a bow user you will have a severe disadvantage in defense any ranged/elemental bolt spells.
411 is going to be a godsend for you. With a 4x bow at level 11 you will see very steady AS growth because eblade will level with you up to 8x. (level 20.) Plus perception, you are going to be a beast.
Use whatever bow you can which gives you a 3 second RT. You should be able to get 2 shots off every time they attack you. You should be in stance defense and dancing.
Also, you should never fight two monsters if you can avoid it. That should get you started.
Oh one more thing, range isn't affected by encumbrance so you can hold as many boxes as you want!
