I thought I wanted to try unarmed combat with this bard, but I don't have enough defense even with all the dodge I can get right now. I can't stand up to my own level even with a shield taking its penalty for the unarmed combat. Any ideas how I might adjust him for better DS? My 30 days is up next week, I think. Wearing 3x full armor. Training toward double .. need 10 for that?
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 115838 Level: 10
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 88 (19) ... 88 (19)
Constitution (CON): 60 (5) ... 60 (5)
Dexterity (DEX): 75 (17) ... 75 (17)
Agility (AGI): 73 (26) ... 73 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 71 (-5) ... 71 (-5)
Aura (AUR): 90 (25) ... 90 (25)
Logic (LOG): 49 (0) ... 49 (0)
Intuition (INT): 35 (-7) ... 35 (-7)
Wisdom (WIS): 68 (9) ... 68 (9)
Influence (INF): 87 (28) ... 87 (28)
Armor Use..........................| 30 6
Shield Use.........................| 40 8
Brawling...........................| 102 24
Physical Fitness...................| 58 12
Dodging............................| 58 12
Arcane Symbols.....................| 15 3
Magic Item Use.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Elemental Mana Control.............| 20 4
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 15 3
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 20 4
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 25 5
Stalking and Hiding................| 20 4
Perception.........................| 40 8
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 30 6
Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 6
Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 7
Training Points: 13 Phy 0 Mnt (126 Phy converted to Mnt)
GORMANG
THROGG
Re: Another new Bard
10/21/2012 09:08 PM CDT
Unless you are a monk or an ambushing rogue (or possibly an ambushing ranger), unarmed combat sucks. Give it up. Just my opinion, of course.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Another new Bard
10/21/2012 09:53 PM CDT
Oh, I beg to differ. My brawling bard got a big boost from UAC, especially with Tonis to help. She's far more effective now than she was with Voln Fu, and no longer limited to using her martial arts on undead, only. It's extremely viable. It does, however, require a little more active participation. When you understand the "tiers" and when to use jab, punch, grapple or kick...it's actually amazingly effective. It may not appeal to everyone, but there's no reason in the world bards can't be as good, if not better, than rogues or rangers, thanks to our complimentary spellsongs.
Now if I could just sing up a sonic cestus I could actually WEAR, my world would be complete.
~ Heathyr and friends
Now if I could just sing up a sonic cestus I could actually WEAR, my world would be complete.
~ Heathyr and friends
THROGG
Re: Another new Bard
10/21/2012 10:20 PM CDT
Well, I am glad you like using the UAC. Almost all my characters knew brawling, since they were all in Voln. Sorry, but my non-ambushing folks (warrior,, cleric etc) are pretty sucky using UAC/brawling now. Using this from ambush seems by far the more effective. For me at least. As always, your mileage may vary.
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me
CRESPO8
Re: Another new Bard
10/21/2012 10:58 PM CDT
Monks don't ambush and they are pretty much the number 1 class that is supposed to be using UAC. Granted they get some direct bonuses with their spells and Cmans but I would think with Tonis giving you 2 seconds off you could be tiering up pretty quickly and using a sonic weapon for flares then once at Tier 3 you should be able to crit kill things easier than spam attacking with a quick edged weapon. Ofcourse this is all my theory since I don't exactly have a high level bard but I would think quick attacks with a chance to kill and sonic flares would be pretty great.
DOUG
Re: Another new Bard
10/21/2012 11:27 PM CDT
I would expect Tonis to affect tiering up much the same as Haste, although perhaps not quite so drastically.
Doug
Doug
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 12:12 AM CDT
>>>>I would expect Tonis to affect tiering up much the same as Haste, although perhaps not quite so drastically.
It does reduce the chance of tiering up, but it's more than compensated for by getting three times the number of attacks. I'm not sure how it compares to haste, but it's a beautiful thing. :)
>>>>Sorry, but my non-ambushing folks (warrior,, cleric etc) are pretty sucky using UAC/brawling now.
For single-trained brawlers, you're right. My sorcerer was a brawler, and the loss of Voln Fu essentially broke her. I'm still grieving the loss, believe me. But on the plus side, since I had to concede UAC was no longer viable for her, I finally decided to drop all that brawling and pick up a runestaff. In spite of the loss of a more interesting training path, she now has a LOT more DS and bolt protection, plus a whole bunch of new magical skills I'd been wanting anyway. So I adapted, and I've been enjoying her new tricks.
My bard, however, is fully doubled in brawling. The UAC was an instant boon for her, exactly the opposite of my single-trained sorc. I was able to drop all her shield training and redirect those points into more spells and lores. I was skeptical at first, but I've found her MUCH more capable under the new UAC system. It takes a little more attention, sure. But I really enjoy hunting with her now, and she's much better at it. She CAN aim shots from the open, but with Tonis, I don't find it remotely necessary. Just keep jabbing until you fully tier up, then spam punch. Dead is dead, right? :)
~ Heathyr and friends
It does reduce the chance of tiering up, but it's more than compensated for by getting three times the number of attacks. I'm not sure how it compares to haste, but it's a beautiful thing. :)
>>>>Sorry, but my non-ambushing folks (warrior,, cleric etc) are pretty sucky using UAC/brawling now.
For single-trained brawlers, you're right. My sorcerer was a brawler, and the loss of Voln Fu essentially broke her. I'm still grieving the loss, believe me. But on the plus side, since I had to concede UAC was no longer viable for her, I finally decided to drop all that brawling and pick up a runestaff. In spite of the loss of a more interesting training path, she now has a LOT more DS and bolt protection, plus a whole bunch of new magical skills I'd been wanting anyway. So I adapted, and I've been enjoying her new tricks.
My bard, however, is fully doubled in brawling. The UAC was an instant boon for her, exactly the opposite of my single-trained sorc. I was able to drop all her shield training and redirect those points into more spells and lores. I was skeptical at first, but I've found her MUCH more capable under the new UAC system. It takes a little more attention, sure. But I really enjoy hunting with her now, and she's much better at it. She CAN aim shots from the open, but with Tonis, I don't find it remotely necessary. Just keep jabbing until you fully tier up, then spam punch. Dead is dead, right? :)
~ Heathyr and friends
TROUBLE13
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 12:58 AM CDT
Some things that may help, get rid of the lores and extras for now. Just focus on what should be your core training. 2x brawl, 1x shield, 1x dodge, 1x spells, 1x HP, 1x PF, 1x cman, 1x climb/swim, 1x perception. You may not even need the shield training but may benefit from just holding one when you need it. Any extra points dump them into PF until you have full health, after that I'd suggest more spells.
I'd suggest you try having a shield out when in defensive then putting it away when you go offensive to attack things. Time your shots, don't take on more then one foe, and you should be good.
Figure out which society you want to join if you haven't done so already, they are all extremely helpful.
Using a weapon would be a lot easier then doing UAC, but hey, it should be about which you yourself find more enjoyable.
I'd suggest you try having a shield out when in defensive then putting it away when you go offensive to attack things. Time your shots, don't take on more then one foe, and you should be good.
Figure out which society you want to join if you haven't done so already, they are all extremely helpful.
Using a weapon would be a lot easier then doing UAC, but hey, it should be about which you yourself find more enjoyable.
THORNBROOK
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 04:39 AM CDT
Shield use will help your defenses, you might try a few different sized shields to see how much each of them hinder you. You might find you use a buckler (smallest) right now and once you can sustain Tonis swap over to a tower shield. Keep in mind a lot of your defenses will come from spells. 1010 and 1019 both offer some defensive boost but you've also got 430 to look forward to for defense and TD. Naturally if you go towards 430 you'll also get the UAC bonus from 425.
To free up a few points, stalk and hide is worthless for a bard unless you needed a few ranks to hide/wrack in town. I'd give up all lore at your level, neither are going to provide anything worthwhile in return for awhile.
This should give you enough TPs to then single in CM which would help your offensive.
Lochiven
RATHBONER
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 05:15 AM CDT
You should have plenty of DS as it is. It looks like a tactics problem (are you using defensive stance?) or a gear problem (get everything to 4x, shield gloves, boots as well as armor) rather than a training problem. You have the training and stats to have good defense. Don't get encumbered either.
Your training is lacking in Harness Power, and this will hurt you because you want that mana to use set up spells. You will eventually want CMan training but not having it won't be hurting you much yet. TWC training can give you a boost too. Its not as good as holding a shield, but if you don't want to be wearing and removing your shield every swing, 1 rank (for the stat bonus) or 0.5x (for the TWC formula bonus) gets you a decent DS bonus from having open hands.
How loosely are you interpreting like level? Critter difficulty scales up pretty fast at low level, so if you are thinking level 15 is like level, maybe you just need to avoid any critter actually over your level for a while.
A weapon would undoubtedly be easier, since Lullabye/whack is a lot more deadly than Lullabye/UAC at decent position.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use for how much armor use training you need. 6 is fine for doubles. The RT column and the bard column are the ones to check unless you want to combat cast MnE when that column will be the important one.
I suspect its merely that you can't stand around in a swarm of rabid guard dogs wailing away in offensive stance the way you could in rats and once you adjust tactics you'll be fine.
Your training is lacking in Harness Power, and this will hurt you because you want that mana to use set up spells. You will eventually want CMan training but not having it won't be hurting you much yet. TWC training can give you a boost too. Its not as good as holding a shield, but if you don't want to be wearing and removing your shield every swing, 1 rank (for the stat bonus) or 0.5x (for the TWC formula bonus) gets you a decent DS bonus from having open hands.
How loosely are you interpreting like level? Critter difficulty scales up pretty fast at low level, so if you are thinking level 15 is like level, maybe you just need to avoid any critter actually over your level for a while.
A weapon would undoubtedly be easier, since Lullabye/whack is a lot more deadly than Lullabye/UAC at decent position.
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use for how much armor use training you need. 6 is fine for doubles. The RT column and the bard column are the ones to check unless you want to combat cast MnE when that column will be the important one.
I suspect its merely that you can't stand around in a swarm of rabid guard dogs wailing away in offensive stance the way you could in rats and once you adjust tactics you'll be fine.
WOLFES2
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 07:43 AM CDT
It all comes down to how much like a monk do you want to be?
Heavy armor is a hindrance to your UAC ability. However, as a bard it helps you to survive getting hit. It's a toss up. I think the armor is a hindrance more later in levels, so for now you probably want to at least get into doubles. You only need 8 ranks of Armor Use for double leather. I might just try robes for a couple days (before your 30 days is up) and see how well you do. You should see some offensive benefit over double leathers. Avoidance of being hit is critical, obviously, and may not work at higher levels for a bard. Even so, stance dancing can alleviate a little of that.
I think using a shield and using points on a Shield Use is too much of a penalty to the UAC to use. You may be better off attempting to go 1.5x in dodge or 1x in TWC to gain some DS. If I was serious about the UAC, while still being a bard, I'd consider losing the armor/shield and sliding those training points to 1x TWC for DS. It's good for 15 DS if you are 1x. There may or may not be further benefit to being over 1x, I am unsure.
I would keep the MIU or AS, but not both. Choose whichever method you think will net you the most AS/DS/TD possible and run with it. MIU might be simpler to get your low to mid quality spells in, which is all you need at your level. Focus on getting 103, 101, 107, 202, 602 and your basic mass spells for hunting. If you can add 503 and 509, life will be much easier. Those spells should provide you with nice enough bolt and melee DS to fight at your level. Frankly, I think you need more offense. Stance dancing MUST be learned. People stand around in offensive way way too often while trying to hunt. More patience and more offensive firepower for when it is your opportunity to swing is your best bet. Get some flaring gloves and boots soon, preferably with the highest enchant you can find. Eblade should be useful.
Lose the EMC, it's near useless at low levels and to be frank, as a bard, I would get MMC. Other bards feel differently. I think any skill that boosts two spells is superior over one that doesn't, regardless of whom you can share with. Also, I find being able to share with empaths to be superior to sharing with wizards (101/103/107/202/healing vs. 503/509/511), YMMV. Some of the issue is locating an empath is much easier than a wizard, typically.
Keep the air lore, actually raise it by losing the manipulation lore. Manip lore might gain you some crits with 102, but you are trying to use UAC here, not sing things to death. Save it for a fixskill a year or so from now if you truly want to gain something from manipulation.
Stalk and hide, no.
Perception is fine. I wouldn't go over .5x, as it's main benefit to you will be to allow you access to some hunting grounds or traveling. 20-30 ranks is plenty for any character that doesn't have a very specific need for it, like an archer, picker or TC sheriff.
Climb and Swim, you seem mildly over trained in them. Focus on being roughly 1x in both combined for now. Early on lean to climbing and then if you make it to level 50 or more, start the reverse that. 40 ranks of climb and 70ish ranks of swim should serve you at cap. There are likely racial modifiers involved with climbs/swims and Physical Fitness is a significant factor, too.
All the potential shaving you do could garner you between 15 and 20 DS, depending on where you make cuts and how you alter your training. More importantly it should make you more competent offensively. Walk into a room, 1105 0r 1102 critter, if it is stunned, proned or asleep go to town (or try) otherwise let it swing at you so it moves into a more offensive stance. Jab to tier up (if you struggle switch to punches) and follow the chain til it is dead. If you can't keep the critter stunned during combat, stance back, let it swing again then repeat. Jabs and punches will take less time than nearly any critter attack ever will. These attacks are beautiful for allowing you to stance dance with critters under level 20ish. Find things that don't cast if you must, there are oodles under level 30, and go to town on them.
~Galenok
Heavy armor is a hindrance to your UAC ability. However, as a bard it helps you to survive getting hit. It's a toss up. I think the armor is a hindrance more later in levels, so for now you probably want to at least get into doubles. You only need 8 ranks of Armor Use for double leather. I might just try robes for a couple days (before your 30 days is up) and see how well you do. You should see some offensive benefit over double leathers. Avoidance of being hit is critical, obviously, and may not work at higher levels for a bard. Even so, stance dancing can alleviate a little of that.
I think using a shield and using points on a Shield Use is too much of a penalty to the UAC to use. You may be better off attempting to go 1.5x in dodge or 1x in TWC to gain some DS. If I was serious about the UAC, while still being a bard, I'd consider losing the armor/shield and sliding those training points to 1x TWC for DS. It's good for 15 DS if you are 1x. There may or may not be further benefit to being over 1x, I am unsure.
I would keep the MIU or AS, but not both. Choose whichever method you think will net you the most AS/DS/TD possible and run with it. MIU might be simpler to get your low to mid quality spells in, which is all you need at your level. Focus on getting 103, 101, 107, 202, 602 and your basic mass spells for hunting. If you can add 503 and 509, life will be much easier. Those spells should provide you with nice enough bolt and melee DS to fight at your level. Frankly, I think you need more offense. Stance dancing MUST be learned. People stand around in offensive way way too often while trying to hunt. More patience and more offensive firepower for when it is your opportunity to swing is your best bet. Get some flaring gloves and boots soon, preferably with the highest enchant you can find. Eblade should be useful.
Lose the EMC, it's near useless at low levels and to be frank, as a bard, I would get MMC. Other bards feel differently. I think any skill that boosts two spells is superior over one that doesn't, regardless of whom you can share with. Also, I find being able to share with empaths to be superior to sharing with wizards (101/103/107/202/healing vs. 503/509/511), YMMV. Some of the issue is locating an empath is much easier than a wizard, typically.
Keep the air lore, actually raise it by losing the manipulation lore. Manip lore might gain you some crits with 102, but you are trying to use UAC here, not sing things to death. Save it for a fixskill a year or so from now if you truly want to gain something from manipulation.
Stalk and hide, no.
Perception is fine. I wouldn't go over .5x, as it's main benefit to you will be to allow you access to some hunting grounds or traveling. 20-30 ranks is plenty for any character that doesn't have a very specific need for it, like an archer, picker or TC sheriff.
Climb and Swim, you seem mildly over trained in them. Focus on being roughly 1x in both combined for now. Early on lean to climbing and then if you make it to level 50 or more, start the reverse that. 40 ranks of climb and 70ish ranks of swim should serve you at cap. There are likely racial modifiers involved with climbs/swims and Physical Fitness is a significant factor, too.
All the potential shaving you do could garner you between 15 and 20 DS, depending on where you make cuts and how you alter your training. More importantly it should make you more competent offensively. Walk into a room, 1105 0r 1102 critter, if it is stunned, proned or asleep go to town (or try) otherwise let it swing at you so it moves into a more offensive stance. Jab to tier up (if you struggle switch to punches) and follow the chain til it is dead. If you can't keep the critter stunned during combat, stance back, let it swing again then repeat. Jabs and punches will take less time than nearly any critter attack ever will. These attacks are beautiful for allowing you to stance dance with critters under level 20ish. Find things that don't cast if you must, there are oodles under level 30, and go to town on them.
~Galenok
HEATHERHAZE
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 10:29 AM CDT
>>>>[Regarding TWC] It's good for 15 DS if you are 1x. There may or may not be further benefit to being over 1x, I am unsure.
You actually only need .5x in TWC to get the +15 DS bonus. Additional training beyond .5x adds DS, but with diminishing returns.
~ Heathyr and friends
You actually only need .5x in TWC to get the +15 DS bonus. Additional training beyond .5x adds DS, but with diminishing returns.
~ Heathyr and friends
SUTTOND
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 09:29 PM CDT
You can add me to the cheerleaders for UAC bards. Brandain is an absolute beast with the new system, and it's fun as all heck to hunt with when hasted. JabjabpunchkickgrapplekickYEAAAAHHHH!!!!
Dave, Brandain's Bard
Dave, Brandain's Bard
GORMANG
Re: Another new Bard
10/22/2012 11:30 PM CDT
Thanks for the pointers. I think you're both right that it's mostly a matter of tactics. I've tried paying more attention to stance and doing a bit better. I got some good hand-wraps and foot-wraps from the monk in Misty Isle which help some in defensive and also help with killing them faster. I also upgraded my +15 full leather to +20 double leather with 6 ranks in armor.
My core skills are at about where was suggested except for HP which I've increased. I'll get shield up next by reducing some of my lores. I was reading in previous posts about getting those lores; but I guess that's for when I get older.
I experimented with TWC which I didn't know would help. I found that one rank by itself didn't do anything; but .5x ranks gave me some extra DS. Even in Offensive stance from +47 to +64. In Defensive from +126 to +173 both without the shield.
I've set up some hot keys to shuffle my shield off and on when moving to offensive and defensive stance. And I'll watch for swarms and good opportunities to hit after they've done their thing.
Thanks again for your pointers.
RATHBONER
Re: Another new Bard
10/23/2012 10:28 AM CDT
>Even in Offensive stance from +47 to +64. In Defensive from +126 to +173 both without the shield.
An increase of 17 looks right for offensive, but it shouldn't be as big a difference as that in defensive.
