If you were only able to train in one lore per level what what you train in as a physical bard?
~D
AIM: Delcian
"Only after disaster can we be resurrected." - TD
DELCIAN
KRAKII
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 10:50 AM CDT
Physical? EL:Air, no question.
- Affects damage done with Banshee's Wail/1008.
- Affects second flare from Sonic Weapon Song/1012.
- Affects RT reduction from Song of Tonis/1035.
It's that second one which is the absolute essential use for the Lore.
- Affects damage done with Banshee's Wail/1008.
- Affects second flare from Sonic Weapon Song/1012.
- Affects RT reduction from Song of Tonis/1035.
It's that second one which is the absolute essential use for the Lore.
WOLFES2
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 11:25 AM CDT
Assuming you are only hunting with a weapon and nearly no other damage dealing spell, then definitely Air Lore. 3 seconds, or even just 1 second off all rt is incredibly critical for a weapon using bard. I believe 35 ranks gets you 2 seconds off. Use that as a leaping off point minimum of ranks.
As for the second lore, I don't see any question in it being anything other thank Mental Lore: Telepathy. 18 ranks of that is quite a significant boost for any weapon using bard that sings maximum bardsongs.
Manipulation lore should only be considered if you are going to use a more pure hunting method via 1002/1030/1008 hunting. I see a slight nod toward 1025 users here but it's just not as useful as telepathy, which grants an AS boost over normal and, more importantly, extends the length of your bardsong renewals. This can save tremendous amounts of mana over time.Once you reach cap, finding the balance between Telepathy versus Manipulation lore ranks becomes the trick. In the end it comes down to hunting style.
~Galenok
As for the second lore, I don't see any question in it being anything other thank Mental Lore: Telepathy. 18 ranks of that is quite a significant boost for any weapon using bard that sings maximum bardsongs.
Manipulation lore should only be considered if you are going to use a more pure hunting method via 1002/1030/1008 hunting. I see a slight nod toward 1025 users here but it's just not as useful as telepathy, which grants an AS boost over normal and, more importantly, extends the length of your bardsong renewals. This can save tremendous amounts of mana over time.Once you reach cap, finding the balance between Telepathy versus Manipulation lore ranks becomes the trick. In the end it comes down to hunting style.
~Galenok
DELCIAN
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 11:38 AM CDT
The hope was to use 1005 and Focused Mstrike with TWC...having the sung weapon in the off hand and a flaring weapon in the main.
~D
AIM: Delcian
"Only after disaster can we be resurrected." - TD
~D
AIM: Delcian
"Only after disaster can we be resurrected." - TD
KRAKII
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 11:58 AM CDT
Since you said 'one Lore' I chose to interpret that as 'Just One Rank', in which case you should concentrate on EL:Air.
If you have the points to train in one each Elemental and Mental, then I agree that ML:Telepathy is the way to go. (AS benefits to both you and the rest of your group.)
.
Unfortunately, you really would be better off with the Sonic Weapon (and its already-great flaring goodness) in the right hand, to take advantage of all those flares. Then the Lore just gives you even more chances for it to flare. The down side to this would be that Two-Weapon combat really wants the lighter (read: Sonic) weapon in the left hand. The up side to this would be that you could potentially dispense with Two Weapon entirely and just hide behind a shield; if they're asleep from Lullabye/1005, it's really easy to hit them.
(Remember to put a good value into INFluence, and/or be a race with a high bonus in it. Like an Elf. Which would also play well into your Two-Weapon plans, actually.)
My weapon-swinging Elf was regularly able to up-hunt by several levels because his high INFluence would disable (prone/asleep, or just sitting [which from a DS standpoint == prone]) his critter opponents with great regularity.
.
I thought that MStrike would end the effect from Tonis, just like Haste. (Although now that I think about it, I believe that it does not and that this is another case of clear superiority of a, uhhh, 35th level spell over a, you know, 6th level spell. <cough>)
If you have the points to train in one each Elemental and Mental, then I agree that ML:Telepathy is the way to go. (AS benefits to both you and the rest of your group.)
.
Unfortunately, you really would be better off with the Sonic Weapon (and its already-great flaring goodness) in the right hand, to take advantage of all those flares. Then the Lore just gives you even more chances for it to flare. The down side to this would be that Two-Weapon combat really wants the lighter (read: Sonic) weapon in the left hand. The up side to this would be that you could potentially dispense with Two Weapon entirely and just hide behind a shield; if they're asleep from Lullabye/1005, it's really easy to hit them.
(Remember to put a good value into INFluence, and/or be a race with a high bonus in it. Like an Elf. Which would also play well into your Two-Weapon plans, actually.)
My weapon-swinging Elf was regularly able to up-hunt by several levels because his high INFluence would disable (prone/asleep, or just sitting [which from a DS standpoint == prone]) his critter opponents with great regularity.
.
I thought that MStrike would end the effect from Tonis, just like Haste. (Although now that I think about it, I believe that it does not and that this is another case of clear superiority of a, uhhh, 35th level spell over a, you know, 6th level spell. <cough>)
WOLFES2
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 12:20 PM CDT
Does the air lore and sonic flares only work in the right hand, Krakii? If so, that's news to me. Not that it is something I'd have ever checked. Best weapons for your planned attack, Declian, is the short sword. In your case, you want max RT reduction and max flare potential. You will find that 1005 isn't as necessary later on as it is leading up to having your sonic weapon and Tonis. You likely won't even have Tonis until your 50's at the soonest. If I was you, I'd truly go 12-15 ranks of Telepathy lore before switching to single air lore. That small initial expenditure will pay off over time before you can truly begin using 1035 much. Consider that you'll probably be getting 425 and 1035 roughly at level 60. That's about when you can even use 1035 with consistency. Before that, it's mostly a toy for swarms. This makes using short swords probably even more of a bonus due to the amount of mstriking you plan on doing. Heavier weapons work and work well, but do consider the amount of potential RT you will accrue versus damage output. It comes back to, do I plan to deal damage over time or hopefully crit something. Open ambushing with a single weapon is very effective, too, for a bard with a similar cost to benefit.
~Galenok
~Galenok
KRAKII
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 01:48 PM CDT
No, it works in both.
But since even the base flares (with no Lore ranks) are superior in frequency (and often strength) to anything else at all, you're better off maximizing your chances at having them happen. In the left hand, you might not even swing the weapon ('cannot find an opening' message), depending on your skill vs. opponent level.
The key with Bardic flares is to swing the hardest-hitting weapon you can as fast as you can. If there's a weapon that you can swing in only 1s with a DF even within smelling distance of something that takes you 2s to swing, swing the faster one. You don't CARE what the DF is, really... you want to achieve complete saturation of "give me a chance to have a flare."
.
Even without MStrike, being able to swing a small fast weapon under Song of Tonis/1035 makes the Air ranks significantly more attractive than a mere additional +5 (== 15 ranks ML:Telepathy) or +6 (== 21 ranks) or +7 (== 28 ranks) worth of AS. The only time the AS would be significantly more attractive would be if it was just out-and-out that difficult for you hit in the first place... in which case you should be hunting something else entirely.
Even at 64th level (== 66 ranks of Lore possible) that +7 AS means you are giving up nearly 9% chance of the second flare by shifting the training points from Elemental Lore to Mental instead; even only +5 AS/15 ranks means you are giving up more than 3% chance. The flare will be much more valuable to you.
(Now, with that having been said, I repeat what I've said earlier: if you can manage to scrape up the points to single in both Realms' Lore, then by all means do so.)
But since even the base flares (with no Lore ranks) are superior in frequency (and often strength) to anything else at all, you're better off maximizing your chances at having them happen. In the left hand, you might not even swing the weapon ('cannot find an opening' message), depending on your skill vs. opponent level.
The key with Bardic flares is to swing the hardest-hitting weapon you can as fast as you can. If there's a weapon that you can swing in only 1s with a DF even within smelling distance of something that takes you 2s to swing, swing the faster one. You don't CARE what the DF is, really... you want to achieve complete saturation of "give me a chance to have a flare."
.
Even without MStrike, being able to swing a small fast weapon under Song of Tonis/1035 makes the Air ranks significantly more attractive than a mere additional +5 (== 15 ranks ML:Telepathy) or +6 (== 21 ranks) or +7 (== 28 ranks) worth of AS. The only time the AS would be significantly more attractive would be if it was just out-and-out that difficult for you hit in the first place... in which case you should be hunting something else entirely.
Even at 64th level (== 66 ranks of Lore possible) that +7 AS means you are giving up nearly 9% chance of the second flare by shifting the training points from Elemental Lore to Mental instead; even only +5 AS/15 ranks means you are giving up more than 3% chance. The flare will be much more valuable to you.
(Now, with that having been said, I repeat what I've said earlier: if you can manage to scrape up the points to single in both Realms' Lore, then by all means do so.)
WOLFES2
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 03:56 PM CDT
Right. That's why I stated getting the EL: Air was much more critical.
So, you believe that shortening your renewal times, via Telepathy, isn't worth giving up a 3% chance at a flare? I'd give up a 10% flare chance, in order to gain a significant amount of mana over the course of a hunt so that I could cast 1035 2 or maybe 3 more times during said hunt.
~Galenok
So, you believe that shortening your renewal times, via Telepathy, isn't worth giving up a 3% chance at a flare? I'd give up a 10% flare chance, in order to gain a significant amount of mana over the course of a hunt so that I could cast 1035 2 or maybe 3 more times during said hunt.
~Galenok
KRAKII
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 04:21 PM CDT
THAT was the other reply that I was going to write, but couldn't remember. Thanks! <dopeslap self>
You had mentioned about number of casts of Tonis/1035, and it being being mostly an invasion-based trick pony. I had meant to reply regarding the poster's hunting habits & hunting areas. Some lend themselves much more favorably to certain styles of hunting than others.
(Also, of course, if you're using +50 armor & shield with a +50 DB item, maybe you don't need to sing quite as many Songs to cut into your mana reserves. This is a very situational scenario.)
For example, if your area is near a town (or like the Krolvin area of the Lysierian Hills) where there is easy access to a Node, using Tonis on a more regular basis becomes feasible.
Or if there are creatures that you can regularly use to mana-battery (like the Sheruvian Monastery on the moon, or arctic titans in the Glacier) OR if you have regular access to blue/crystal wands, this again becomes much more supportable.
Likewise, if you only hunt for 5-10 minutes at a time (until you're out of mana, basically) and then rest until you're full (about 8 minutes + 1 pulse to account for the medley renewal while you're there) and go back out again, then you can pretty much use Tonis all the time.
Naturally, hunting up in lesser vruul at the top of the long stair-climb on the moon... does not so easily lend itself to this hunting style.
Regular hunting partner is a Major Sanctuary caster, and you whistle up PowerSong/1018 while you're in there? Pretty easy.
We've been talking about what, 28 ranks == +7 group AS from ML:Telepathy?
28 ranks == +56 additional seconds; at 64th level you'll probably have a renewal time of
120 + 25*4 + 25*3 + 14*2 + (2*28 from Lore that we're talking about) + stat bonuses == 379s + stat bonuses, probably another 40-ish seconds there, so call it 435s straight up.
That's 7:15 renewal, of which 56s comes from the Lore.
In a 5-10 minute hunt, you will either renew only while you are back in town, or renew only a single time while in the field. Even if you hunt for a half hour solid you will renew only 4 times.
The person without that ML:Telepathy will have a renewal of 6:19... which means in a 5-10 minute hunt they will also renew only while in town, or a single time while out in the field. In a solid half-hour hunt it will, also, be only 4 renewals. (Or maybe squeaking up to a 5th one.)
(Me, personally, I seldom hunt for a half hour solid simply because I'm always long-since fried. That was why I wanted to lead into that discussion up above.)
If the person keeps 15 ranks (== +5AS to the group) of ML:Telepathy, then we're looking at only 26s difference, and giving up +2AS.
.
Compare that with going from a 33% chance (64th level == 66 ranks of EL:Air) of (second) flare...
to 28 ranks of ML:Telepathy + 38 ranks of EL:Air == just over 24% chance of (second) flare.
Do I think that +7AS is worth more than increasing my chance of flaring by 37% (33% vs. 24%)? Hell no. Flares are worth a LOT more, because as a double-trained weapon swinger, possibly using Lullabye, you are going to hit them.
And from there, if you can hit them, you are far, far, far better off hitting them 'lebenty squillion times and dishing out a hojillion flares with your Tonis-reduced speed and your higher chance of (second) flares.
You had mentioned about number of casts of Tonis/1035, and it being being mostly an invasion-based trick pony. I had meant to reply regarding the poster's hunting habits & hunting areas. Some lend themselves much more favorably to certain styles of hunting than others.
(Also, of course, if you're using +50 armor & shield with a +50 DB item, maybe you don't need to sing quite as many Songs to cut into your mana reserves. This is a very situational scenario.)
For example, if your area is near a town (or like the Krolvin area of the Lysierian Hills) where there is easy access to a Node, using Tonis on a more regular basis becomes feasible.
Or if there are creatures that you can regularly use to mana-battery (like the Sheruvian Monastery on the moon, or arctic titans in the Glacier) OR if you have regular access to blue/crystal wands, this again becomes much more supportable.
Likewise, if you only hunt for 5-10 minutes at a time (until you're out of mana, basically) and then rest until you're full (about 8 minutes + 1 pulse to account for the medley renewal while you're there) and go back out again, then you can pretty much use Tonis all the time.
Naturally, hunting up in lesser vruul at the top of the long stair-climb on the moon... does not so easily lend itself to this hunting style.
Regular hunting partner is a Major Sanctuary caster, and you whistle up PowerSong/1018 while you're in there? Pretty easy.
We've been talking about what, 28 ranks == +7 group AS from ML:Telepathy?
28 ranks == +56 additional seconds; at 64th level you'll probably have a renewal time of
120 + 25*4 + 25*3 + 14*2 + (2*28 from Lore that we're talking about) + stat bonuses == 379s + stat bonuses, probably another 40-ish seconds there, so call it 435s straight up.
That's 7:15 renewal, of which 56s comes from the Lore.
In a 5-10 minute hunt, you will either renew only while you are back in town, or renew only a single time while in the field. Even if you hunt for a half hour solid you will renew only 4 times.
The person without that ML:Telepathy will have a renewal of 6:19... which means in a 5-10 minute hunt they will also renew only while in town, or a single time while out in the field. In a solid half-hour hunt it will, also, be only 4 renewals. (Or maybe squeaking up to a 5th one.)
(Me, personally, I seldom hunt for a half hour solid simply because I'm always long-since fried. That was why I wanted to lead into that discussion up above.)
If the person keeps 15 ranks (== +5AS to the group) of ML:Telepathy, then we're looking at only 26s difference, and giving up +2AS.
.
Compare that with going from a 33% chance (64th level == 66 ranks of EL:Air) of (second) flare...
to 28 ranks of ML:Telepathy + 38 ranks of EL:Air == just over 24% chance of (second) flare.
Do I think that +7AS is worth more than increasing my chance of flaring by 37% (33% vs. 24%)? Hell no. Flares are worth a LOT more, because as a double-trained weapon swinger, possibly using Lullabye, you are going to hit them.
And from there, if you can hit them, you are far, far, far better off hitting them 'lebenty squillion times and dishing out a hojillion flares with your Tonis-reduced speed and your higher chance of (second) flares.
WOLFES2
Re: Bard Lores
10/11/2011 04:50 PM CDT
Hrmm, are you sure about that renewal time? I don't think I get much more than 7 or 8 minutes post cap. Well, you are Krakii, so I guess you are pretty certain. Sad that renewal times don't jump much from level 60 to 100+.
We're not factoring in the whole stunned during renewal time period that Kilthal loves to post about, huh? I think you are right, Krakii, for the hunt til fried bard. I tend to go on hunts that last well into the 30+ minute range. That does alter things because it means more renews and spellsong loss. Additionally, it would seem that since I use a bow, sonic flares are null and void. I think it's obvious that I would train differently.
However, we were advising other bards so you make a valid point. Sonic flares are nasty flaring to 70 points. That's a lot of damage and crit death. As a bard you are doing yourself a disservice not get some mental lore, though. If your training path leads you to only being able to squeak out 1 lore, then air lore it is. I think being TWC is probably the only situation you'd find yourself in where this is the case.
However, while in this one instance Krakii is doing well to dictate air lore reigns supreme, we've both managed to show how Telepathy lore will aid most weapon using bards. If you're a pure bard, you can pretty much disregard most of this string of advice.
~Galenok
We're not factoring in the whole stunned during renewal time period that Kilthal loves to post about, huh? I think you are right, Krakii, for the hunt til fried bard. I tend to go on hunts that last well into the 30+ minute range. That does alter things because it means more renews and spellsong loss. Additionally, it would seem that since I use a bow, sonic flares are null and void. I think it's obvious that I would train differently.
However, we were advising other bards so you make a valid point. Sonic flares are nasty flaring to 70 points. That's a lot of damage and crit death. As a bard you are doing yourself a disservice not get some mental lore, though. If your training path leads you to only being able to squeak out 1 lore, then air lore it is. I think being TWC is probably the only situation you'd find yourself in where this is the case.
However, while in this one instance Krakii is doing well to dictate air lore reigns supreme, we've both managed to show how Telepathy lore will aid most weapon using bards. If you're a pure bard, you can pretty much disregard most of this string of advice.
~Galenok
KRAKII
Re: Bard Lores
10/12/2011 10:13 AM CDT
"Sad that renewal times don't jump much from level 60 to 100+." -- Galenok
Renewals increase the most at lowest levels: 4s/level for 1-25, 3s/level for 26-50, 2s/level for 51-75, and 1s/level for 76+.
High-level Bards will see the most increases from:
- adding ML:Telepathy ranks (2s/rank), now that their stats have increased enough over the levels gone by to afford them;
- those stat bonuses themselves [1s/bonus LOGic, 3s/bonus INFluence]; and
- adding INFluence stat (or stat bonus) enhancers, since it is +3s/point of bonus.
The theoretical non-Enhanced maximum renewal time is 707s, or 11:47. That assumes a +30 LOGic bonus and a +35 INFluence bonus at level 100, which I think is possible only for an Erithian. (Pure Elf used to have an even higher INFluence bonus, but that got tweaked in the GS4 conversion. Erithians tie Elf for the INFluence, and actually have a LOGic bonus.)
.
"We're not factoring in the whole stunned during renewal time period that Kilthal loves to post about, huh?" -- ibid
In a ten-minute hunt, both of our sample Bards had only a single renewal. That's precisely one (1) chance to lose their Sonic Equipment and other defensive Songs while stunned.
Even if both of the Bards need to hunt for an hour solid--maybe they're in a remote area like the Rift where they want to make it worthwhile getting in & out?--you're looking at the cumulative difference in renewal times being... one whole renewal. [Assuming one Bard has 66 ranks of EL:Air and the other has 28 ranks ML:Telepathy + 38 ranks EL:Air. 56s difference in renewals.] (The 435s/7:15 renewal guy will renew 8.27 times; the 379s/6:19 renewal guy will renew 9.49 times.) Call it only eight (8) renewals in the field/vulnerable to stuns versus nine (9) of them.
.
And again, depending on the OP character's hunting style--near what nodes, mana readily available from critters or wands or hunting partners, et cetera--and assuming Just One Lore Rank available per level, my advocacy lands on the side of: "train the weapon, get the CM, train in Shield Use, get all possible EL:Air, totally forgo the Two-Weapon plan [all it does is SLOW YOU DOWN... and you're trying to maximize flares], and hunt where there are swarms."
A single cast of Tonis/1035 can get you most of the way to fried if you're in a swarming area. You're relying on the weapon for flares, which means you want fast fast fast swings; why in the world would you then work as hard as possible to guarantee that you'll be swinging less often (Two-Weapon combat == +2s RT, just for using the 'attack' verb)?!? Sure, Tonis' haste effect can offset some of that, but still.
.
.
"Additionally, it would seem that since I use a bow, sonic flares are null and void. I think it's obvious that I would train differently." -- ibid
For your training path, I would recommend ML:Manipulation. <grin> Because that adds into the Dancing Weapon/1025 AS calculation... and bows are (now) a valid summon for that spell.
.
"If you're a pure bard, you can pretty much disregard most of this string of advice." -- ibid
Actually, as a pure SorcerBard you pretty much want to get one of each Realm's lore, in order to boost your magical ranks-per-level. I'm at 6.5RpL right now, but that's only because I've got 71 spells (at 46th level) eating up a ton of points.
Lore ranks for Bards are a) extremely useful [a good implementation, in other words] and b) cheap (comparatively speaking) because you are single-training in two different skills rather than double-training (at triple the cost) in just one.
.
.
"Well, you are Krakii, so I guess you are pretty certain." -- ibid
Heh. This made me giggle. Again. :)
Renewals increase the most at lowest levels: 4s/level for 1-25, 3s/level for 26-50, 2s/level for 51-75, and 1s/level for 76+.
High-level Bards will see the most increases from:
- adding ML:Telepathy ranks (2s/rank), now that their stats have increased enough over the levels gone by to afford them;
- those stat bonuses themselves [1s/bonus LOGic, 3s/bonus INFluence]; and
- adding INFluence stat (or stat bonus) enhancers, since it is +3s/point of bonus.
The theoretical non-Enhanced maximum renewal time is 707s, or 11:47. That assumes a +30 LOGic bonus and a +35 INFluence bonus at level 100, which I think is possible only for an Erithian. (Pure Elf used to have an even higher INFluence bonus, but that got tweaked in the GS4 conversion. Erithians tie Elf for the INFluence, and actually have a LOGic bonus.)
.
"We're not factoring in the whole stunned during renewal time period that Kilthal loves to post about, huh?" -- ibid
In a ten-minute hunt, both of our sample Bards had only a single renewal. That's precisely one (1) chance to lose their Sonic Equipment and other defensive Songs while stunned.
Even if both of the Bards need to hunt for an hour solid--maybe they're in a remote area like the Rift where they want to make it worthwhile getting in & out?--you're looking at the cumulative difference in renewal times being... one whole renewal. [Assuming one Bard has 66 ranks of EL:Air and the other has 28 ranks ML:Telepathy + 38 ranks EL:Air. 56s difference in renewals.] (The 435s/7:15 renewal guy will renew 8.27 times; the 379s/6:19 renewal guy will renew 9.49 times.) Call it only eight (8) renewals in the field/vulnerable to stuns versus nine (9) of them.
.
And again, depending on the OP character's hunting style--near what nodes, mana readily available from critters or wands or hunting partners, et cetera--and assuming Just One Lore Rank available per level, my advocacy lands on the side of: "train the weapon, get the CM, train in Shield Use, get all possible EL:Air, totally forgo the Two-Weapon plan [all it does is SLOW YOU DOWN... and you're trying to maximize flares], and hunt where there are swarms."
A single cast of Tonis/1035 can get you most of the way to fried if you're in a swarming area. You're relying on the weapon for flares, which means you want fast fast fast swings; why in the world would you then work as hard as possible to guarantee that you'll be swinging less often (Two-Weapon combat == +2s RT, just for using the 'attack' verb)?!? Sure, Tonis' haste effect can offset some of that, but still.
.
.
"Additionally, it would seem that since I use a bow, sonic flares are null and void. I think it's obvious that I would train differently." -- ibid
For your training path, I would recommend ML:Manipulation. <grin> Because that adds into the Dancing Weapon/1025 AS calculation... and bows are (now) a valid summon for that spell.
.
"If you're a pure bard, you can pretty much disregard most of this string of advice." -- ibid
Actually, as a pure SorcerBard you pretty much want to get one of each Realm's lore, in order to boost your magical ranks-per-level. I'm at 6.5RpL right now, but that's only because I've got 71 spells (at 46th level) eating up a ton of points.
Lore ranks for Bards are a) extremely useful [a good implementation, in other words] and b) cheap (comparatively speaking) because you are single-training in two different skills rather than double-training (at triple the cost) in just one.
.
.
"Well, you are Krakii, so I guess you are pretty certain." -- ibid
Heh. This made me giggle. Again. :)
KRAKII
Enhanced bards?
10/12/2011 11:04 AM CDT
So I'm curious: has anyone ever, in fact, gotten the maximum permitted +50 ranks of EL:Air to go with their max-trained-at-cap 101 ranks?
== 151 ranks;
== only TWO (2) short of a full 17-step Lore benefit;
== juuuust a shade under 51% chance of second-flare from the Sonic Weapon.
(And a 50/50 chance of flare on a runestaff-wielding Vibration Chant/1002 cast is just sick. SICK!)
== 151 ranks;
== only TWO (2) short of a full 17-step Lore benefit;
== juuuust a shade under 51% chance of second-flare from the Sonic Weapon.
(And a 50/50 chance of flare on a runestaff-wielding Vibration Chant/1002 cast is just sick. SICK!)
WOLFES2
Re: Enhanced bards?
10/12/2011 05:32 PM CDT
I don't see many pure bards getting much EL:Air early on, until nearing cap. There's not much call for it. Using a runestaff is possibly unique to you, Krakii, or at most a handful of bards. I believe most get brawling but I could be wrong. I agree, though, if you are trying to max magical ranks for runestaff DS purposes, it makes total sense. You need to get out and play your bard some. Seriously. All this posting and stalking the boards, you could spend some time actually testing your bard out even more.
~Galenok
~Galenok
KRAKII
Re: Enhanced bards?
10/13/2011 08:45 AM CDT
Especially with the runestaff change, I've been thinking about it. But we haven't had internet at home since the last third of 2009 when we disconnected the phone landline, so it's either play here at work (which I can't really get away with, since it looks totally different from the Boards) or not. I've been going with "not" and reading more. <shrug>
.
And I differ on the EL:Air discussion, as well. I think Bards would be well served to be getting it early on, significantly before cap. (I may have been a mutant build by getting it from the beginning, but I think I was already in mid-20s when it became available [GS4 conversion].)
+ It boosts the damage from Banshee's Wail/1008.
+ It increases flares for Sonic Weapon Song (this is just stupidly nice).
+ It reduces shield size.
* Coincidentally, at 48th level you can know your 49th Song == +35 shield, and also have your 50 ranks of Lore to reduce shield size by two (2), so (Sonic) Tower encumbers as Medium or (Sonic) Large encumbers as Small. That's also the level where you have 50 ranks of Armor Use to minimize AsG15/augmented chain.
+ It gives ranks of Dodge (to the whole group) for Song of Tonis/1035.
+ And it gives the additional RT pushdown for Tonis, as well.
= Muscle-bound Bards would like it, too, for all the bennies. Not just spellcasters.
And, again, because Bards are single-training in two different Realms' Lores, it's so much less onerous a training point cost.
.
And I differ on the EL:Air discussion, as well. I think Bards would be well served to be getting it early on, significantly before cap. (I may have been a mutant build by getting it from the beginning, but I think I was already in mid-20s when it became available [GS4 conversion].)
+ It boosts the damage from Banshee's Wail/1008.
+ It increases flares for Sonic Weapon Song (this is just stupidly nice).
+ It reduces shield size.
* Coincidentally, at 48th level you can know your 49th Song == +35 shield, and also have your 50 ranks of Lore to reduce shield size by two (2), so (Sonic) Tower encumbers as Medium or (Sonic) Large encumbers as Small. That's also the level where you have 50 ranks of Armor Use to minimize AsG15/augmented chain.
+ It gives ranks of Dodge (to the whole group) for Song of Tonis/1035.
+ And it gives the additional RT pushdown for Tonis, as well.
= Muscle-bound Bards would like it, too, for all the bennies. Not just spellcasters.
And, again, because Bards are single-training in two different Realms' Lores, it's so much less onerous a training point cost.
KITHUS
Re: Enhanced bards?
10/13/2011 12:14 PM CDT
I threw together a quick training sheet because I was curious. A runestaff bard could have:
.5x dodge
1x MIU
1x AS
1x PF
1x EMC
1x MMC
1x Air Lore
1x Mental Lore
1x HP
1.33x Spells
Assuming base points just hitting cap. This is sustainable through normal training though the spell ranks beyond 1x pick up as you get higher in levels. That's 8+ magical ranks per level plus .5x dodge. Using a sonic runestaff that is 7x and adds the +35 to your DS in any stance. Post cap you could easily add 2x MIU, AS or HP along with more spells. It's doable.
Keith/Brinret
Wyrom promised us druids!
.5x dodge
1x MIU
1x AS
1x PF
1x EMC
1x MMC
1x Air Lore
1x Mental Lore
1x HP
1.33x Spells
Assuming base points just hitting cap. This is sustainable through normal training though the spell ranks beyond 1x pick up as you get higher in levels. That's 8+ magical ranks per level plus .5x dodge. Using a sonic runestaff that is 7x and adds the +35 to your DS in any stance. Post cap you could easily add 2x MIU, AS or HP along with more spells. It's doable.
Keith/Brinret
| Yes, a capped character can definitely hold their ground a lot better than a level 2 druid. |
| GM Wyrom |
Wyrom promised us druids!
KRAKII
Re: Enhanced bards?
10/13/2011 12:25 PM CDT
Like I posted over in the Runestaff thread, I'm at 6.5RpL right now (at 46th level) but that's only because I've got 71 spells (23 double-trains, or just about exactly 1.5x) because if I was going to shift a bunch over to Minor Elemental I was going to do it in a big way (30 Minor, 41 Songs) in order to get both Targetting & Barrier.
But yeah, a +35 double-flaring (27% chance) non-Disarmable runestaff is going to do worlds of good, on top of the AsG15/augmented chain he's already wearing. :)
Dodge ranks mostly come from Mirrors, and Tonis if I'm really feeling the need for nimbleness.
But yeah, a +35 double-flaring (27% chance) non-Disarmable runestaff is going to do worlds of good, on top of the AsG15/augmented chain he's already wearing. :)
Dodge ranks mostly come from Mirrors, and Tonis if I'm really feeling the need for nimbleness.
KITHUS
Re: Enhanced bards?
10/13/2011 12:31 PM CDT
Yeah I can't in any way claim to be a bard expert so I wasn't sure how useful the dodge ranks would be considered. Given that you don't take dodge ranks you would be looking at 3/3 additional per level or 300/300 by cap. Easily enough to squeeze out some more spells or get MIU or AS up to 1.75x. Then again I didn't account for armor at all either.
Keith/Brinret
Wyrom promised us druids!
Keith/Brinret
| Yes, a capped character can definitely hold their ground a lot better than a level 2 druid. |
| GM Wyrom |
Wyrom promised us druids!
