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Society for OHE Ambusher 10/10/2010 10:29 AM CDT
I'm sure it's been asked before...what society is best for an OHE ambusher? Thanks!
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/10/2010 11:38 AM CDT
Depends on what you are looking for.

GoS gives some great benefits, but CoL will give you +35 AS/DS when you're done.

I love GoS as it will always give you a level-based hunting ground in a warcamp, but my main in Plat is in the Council.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/10/2010 02:00 PM CDT
I'd go with GoS, hands down.

Which would you rather have? An extra 5 AS/DS, or heavy crit padding and weighting?

That's not even taking into account all the other benefits. In a comparison of utility, I think GoS wins hands down.

As an ambusher, you're not using Wracking, which is the biggest thing CoL has going for it. I'd definitely go with GoS.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/10/2010 02:22 PM CDT
>>I love GoS as it will always give you a level-based hunting ground in a warcamp, but my main in Plat is in the Council.

As I just joined GoS, (also an ambusher) would you mind enlightening me on how to find warcamps or grimswarm? I'm currently stuck with just thunder trolls and ogre warriors to hunt and get credit for. I thought warcamps only came along every 5th rank. And I haven't a clue about grimswarm. Krakii was not as much helped as I had hoped.


Ack! Scarab!
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/10/2010 02:26 PM CDT
>As I just joined GoS, (also an ambusher) would you mind enlightening me on how to find warcamps or grimswarm? I'm currently stuck with just thunder trolls and ogre warriors to hunt and get credit for. I thought warcamps only came along every 5th rank. And I haven't a clue about grimswarm. Krakii was not as much helped as I had hoped. <BADNADE>

Warcamps are always around. You won't need to do anything with them until your 15th rank task.

The key to finding a warcamp is the Sigil of Location. If you use it in a region* that has a warcamp, you'll get a message informing you that there is one nearby ("something interfering with your sigil"). If you use it in the room that the warcamp is in, the entrance will appear and you can enter it.

*By "region" I mean as defined by the LOCATION verb.

You can get a head start by reading the chalkboard in the Sunfist outpost (same room as the task master). It will show a list of known warcamps, and the title of the room each one is in.

Hope that helps!

~ Lumi
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/10/2010 06:29 PM CDT
It depends on what else you want to do really.

CoL is the easier one to master, it also requires less to keep its signs up vs GoS sigils. GoS sigils are certainly better then Col signs in the benefits they give you but they require more training as well. To take full advantage of GoS sigils you will want to be at least 1.5x in PF if not x2 and eventually have about 50 ranks of Harness Power. For CoL 5-10 ranks of HP depending on your stats and less as you gain levels, only other thing is to make sure you have enough spirit.

GoS does have a better backstory and a bit more roleplay potential then CoL. I only say potential because most don't seem to really roleplay it at all, they are just in it for the mechanical advantage it provides. The biggest which is that you can hunt warcamps anywhere, no need to travel from some place to hunt if you find yourself drawn there and not wanting to leave.

I'd suggest you read up on the benefits of both for yourself, www.krakiipedia.com is a good place to start. CoL isn't to difficult but GoS can be quite frustrating for people new to it so make sure you know what you are getting into before you make the plunge there.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/12/2010 11:36 AM CDT
Voln.


"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"

"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 04:21 PM CDT
<<That's not even taking into account all the other benefits. In a comparison of utility, I think GoS wins hands down.

I've never had a character in GoS, and I'm not aware of all the sigils, but I'm going to argue some for CoL being superior for an ambusher, or at least it being a close call.

1) Crit weighting is mostly useless for an ambusher after a certain level, unless you are talking about dagger vs. plate

2) Crit padding is mostly useless unless you are in light armor

3) There are some VERY useful signs that are usually not mentioned in this debate. Staunching means bleeding will never bother you or prematurely end your hunt ever again. Dissipation is +15 to TD, which is huge for rogues since TD is the prime weakness of most. Madness can be very useful for grizzled critter tasks. And finally, healing has saved my life more times than I can count. When I get in trouble (usually stunned, RT, bound etc.) healing is usually the first thing I queue up. It's typically a race between me dying and my stun/RT ending, since if I can get healing off I can always subsequently escape. Now, you can argue you could just as easily do something else like crawl away but that is a lot riskier in my opinion given the RT it incurs.

4) As a square, you have mana and spirit which you probably don't use much and stamina which you probably do use (surge, shadow mastery, etc.). GoS draws from that precious resource pool while CoL does not.

Now, I'm not a stealth rogue. I wear plate and I use heavy weapons. If you are the dagger/stealth type, then GoS weighting/padding will be more useful and healing will probably be slightly less useful. But I personally wouldn't switch to GoS and I view CoL as mechanically superior for my build.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 04:24 PM CDT
>2) Crit padding is mostly useless unless you are in light armor

Heartily disagree.




-farmer

*
That's just what we want, criss-crossing furrows all over the town streets from someone wandering through with their animated plow super buddy.
-Strath

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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 05:04 PM CDT
I disagree on the padding, but that is a matter of opinion.

Sigil of Mending increases healing by +15 and allows you to eat all herbs in 3 sec RT. It's the counterpart to staunching. I'd call it even with that.

Sigil of Focus adds +20 TD. Beats out dissaption by 5.

Sigil of Health restores half your lost HPs. Not bad. Call that a wash with sign of healing.

It's typically a race between me dying and my stun/RT ending, since if I can get healing off I can always subsequently escape


And here is where GoS wins hands down. Sigil of Escape. Usable when stunned or in RT to move a couple of rooms away, at the cost of major nerve wounds. Kind of like a get out of jail free cars, usable once per day. No need to wait for stun or RT to be over.


As for crit weighting, yeah, if you are an ambushed, thats not all that useful. I'll give you that.


Drawback to GoS: longer to master, but more importantly, it costs stamina for the sigils. You should be at least 1x in PF anyhow, and if you are, your stamina is pretty good, and if you are more than 1x, you should be doing great. I don't play a rogue, so I can't say, but I do play a weapon swinging pure, that uses cmans and GoS sigils, and I generally don't have a problem with stamina. Oh, and I am not talking about a 3x PF empath, merely a 1x PF warsorc. I am able to keep major bane and prot up at all times, as well as the other important ones.

Your mileage may vary, of course.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 05:06 PM CDT
3) There are some VERY useful signs that are usually not mentioned in this debate. Staunching means bleeding will never bother you or prematurely end your hunt ever again. Dissipation is +15 to TD, which is huge for rogues since TD is the prime weakness of most. Madness can be very useful for grizzled critter tasks. And finally, healing has saved my life more times than I can count. When I get in trouble (usually stunned, RT, bound etc.) healing is usually the first thing I queue up. It's typically a race between me dying and my stun/RT ending, since if I can get healing off I can always subsequently escape. Now, you can argue you could just as easily do something else like crawl away but that is a lot riskier in my opinion given the RT it incurs.

Staunching doesn't let you continue to hunt despite your injuries, Sigil of determination does.

Sigil of focus also provides TD.

Sigil of health also recoups health.

Sigil of escape can let teleport you out in those hairy situations.


Speaking as a warrior in GoS, I'm never lacking for stamina to run my various sigils. I would imagine most rogues in GoS aren't either.

-Richard.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 06:08 PM CDT
The costs of the CoL abilities are delightfully unbalanced towards the cheap side though. It takes minimal effort to keep +35 AS, +35 DS, +15 TD and another +20 bolt DS up perpetually once you hit 40 or so (unless you're an and have crappy spirit regen, then it takes a a couple more levels).

If I did it all over again I'd probably go GoS though. Mostly for the crit padding (maneuvers!) and the 'you can do stuff while wounded that you can't normally do' one (stalking and hiding!)

Also, while I do have a lot of stamina, I use it all. I wouldn't be able to spew as many CMANs in GoS.

-Keleborrn.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 07:35 PM CDT
My warrior is 2x PF, and has no trouble keeping all his sigils up while using Feint, Berserk, and even occasionally Charge.

GoS > CoL.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 10:21 PM CDT
Good thing your warrior pays 9/0 to double PF per level!
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/17/2010 10:36 PM CDT
I shouldn't be so snarky, as 6/0 isn't a whole lot better.

My point is that CoL is pretty much 'free' to keep up. And it might as well be 'free' to earn, compared to the other two.

-Keleborrn.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 12:25 AM CDT
>Good thing your warrior pays 9/0 to double PF per level!

>I shouldn't be so snarky, as 6/0 isn't a whole lot better.

What warrior doesn't 2x PF anyway?

>My point is that CoL is pretty much 'free' to keep up.

But my point was that GoS is, too. For a warrior, anyway. And given the choice to spend stamina or spirit as part of my societal cost, I'd much rather spend the stamina.

~ Lumi
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 09:10 AM CDT
>>But my point was that GoS is, too. For a warrior, anyway. And given the choice to spend stamina or spirit as part of my societal cost, I'd much rather spend the stamina.
>>Lumi

That's fantastic. Especially as this is the rogue general discussion.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 04:11 PM CDT
>That's fantastic. Especially as this is the rogue general discussion. <WYNTRFRSH>

I'll let the statement stand for squares seeing as how I'm sure my warrior uses more stamina than a like-level rogue would.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 04:27 PM CDT
Sold on focus > dissipation. Sold on escape being a key advantage. Not totally sold on mending + determination > staunching. It seems like if you're injured very badly mending + determination would be better but for the countless times I take a chest or back or arm or neck bleeder I can ignore it/them completely with staunching. Not sold on health being close to as good as healing. Not sold on crit padding being very useful for a rogue in plate. And I guess I'm more stamina intensive than most rogues because with 114 stamina and +15 stamina recovery I use it all against most monsters I hunt. Although a big portion of that is mstrike I guess.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 05:10 PM CDT
Make sure you note that the GoS sigils don't last very long. Not being a script or macro user, this can be a little bit of a headache.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 05:47 PM CDT
>>I'll let the statement stand for squares seeing as how I'm sure my warrior uses more stamina than a like-level rogue would.

Not sure I would agree with this. I maintain Shadow Mastery and Surge (both at 5 ranks) with 1.5x in physical fitness (about 115 stamina). I am barely able to do this, but I manage to pull off a few guild skills, etc, when I need to.

You will also find many rogues use Silent Strike which is fairly stamina intensive. I have forgone this path, however, for now anyway.

-James-
player of Fremie

Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."

Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 06:11 PM CDT
Mending + Determination may not be better than staunching alone, but Determination is a godsend when you're wounded and you need to land CMans as it ignores up to rank 2 wounds.





-- dan/gnimble
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 07:44 PM CDT
<<I'll let the statement stand for squares seeing as how I'm sure my warrior uses more stamina than a like-level rogue would.

Your warrior also has more stamina than a like-level rogue would. 2x PF is not common among rogues until post-cap.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 08:11 PM CDT
>>Sold on focus > dissipation.

Smart.

>>Sold on escape being a key advantage.

Smart. Not just an escape, but a nice vanilla transport to the nearest Sunfist HQ.

>>Not totally sold on mending + determination > staunching. It seems like if you're injured very badly mending + determination would be better but for the countless times I take a chest or back or arm or neck bleeder I can ignore it/them completely with staunching.

Who cares about bleeding? If you're losing so much blood it matters, you need to stop hunting and get healed. If you think you can hunt with major chest neck and back wounds, I'd like to introduce you to the maneuver penalty you are ignoring. Big mistake to continue a hunt with a bleeder - unless you have Determination. Then you can keep going. Even with a broken arm. And you can drag friends. And complete climbing and swimming checks. And if your blood drops too low, you can use Sigil of Health and not lose spirit.

>>Not sold on health being close to as good as healing.

You can use it as much as you want and not worry about being debilitated by spirit loss. I think healing isn't close to as useful as health.

>>Not sold on crit padding being very useful for a rogue in plate.

a) Maneuvers that cause crit wounds bypass everything... except crit padding. Nice thing to have running in front of a roa'ter.
b) Heavy damage padding (Sigil of Minor Bane) is a very nice alternative.
c) I suggest looking at lighter armors anyway.

>>And I guess I'm more stamina intensive than most rogues because with 114 stamina and +15 stamina recovery I use it all against most monsters I hunt. Although a big portion of that is mstrike I guess.

I think a rogue that relies on mstrike is doing it wrong but that's a different discussion.

I really can't see an argument for CoL short of, I dislike the Sunfist quest, it's too hard, and I don't mind spirit loss deciding when my hunts end. 16.6 minutes is a long time until it isn't. (And then if you like the Rift at all, it's that much more of a pain.) Whereas I never end a hunt, as a capped Sunfist master, due to being low on stamina or mana. Never. Only when I have too much loot or have completed a bounty.

-E
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 08:19 PM CDT
Welp. I think the moral of the story for the original asker is: Whatever you pick, that was the wrong choice.

-Keleborrn.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 09:20 PM CDT
How many millions post-cap are you, E?
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 10:38 PM CDT
>It seems like if you're injured very badly mending + determination would be better but for the countless times I take a chest or back or arm or neck bleeder I can ignore it/them completely with staunching. <DOCTORUNNEFF>

Staunching only stops the bleeding. It doesn't let you ignore the other penalties for being wounded.

>Not sold on health being close to as good as healing.

2 spirit vs. (20 stamina + 10 mana). Yes, the Sign restores all your HP and the Sigil only restores half of what's missing, but even if you have to fire off two, restoring 75% of your missing HP for 40/20 still seems like a better deal than having to spend 2 spirit (on top of whatever spirit is already being spent on other Signs).
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 10:48 PM CDT
<<Welp. I think the moral of the story for the original asker is: Whatever you pick, that was the wrong choice.

LOL...for me, I think the moral of the story is to go with GoS, given all of the arguments I've read thus far. :)
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/18/2010 11:40 PM CDT
I'm fairly certain that sigil determination also allows you ignore the DS loss associated with your various wounds, while staunching does not.

-Richard.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/19/2010 04:13 AM CDT
>>How many millions post-cap are you, E? <<

Total experience is 14 point something.

I will grant I mastered Sunfist after cap and so have experienced the best my TPs have to offer it. But I also took two level 30somethings out of CoL and into Sunfist and I love it with them too.

I think Sunfist's powers are ridiculously more useful than Voln's or CoL's, which is a shame, because I love those societies as roleplaying vehicles. Players should be able to pick them for roleplaying reasons and still have mechanical advantages on par with Sunfist.

-E
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/19/2010 08:57 AM CDT
Is gos viable/worthwhile for a soloing sniper in brig armor
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/19/2010 09:40 AM CDT
<<Is gos viable/worthwhile for a soloing sniper in brig armor

Yes. Especially if you're hunting hated enemies because then your arrows/bolts can have crit weighting against those enemies.


-Adam


"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/19/2010 10:11 AM CDT
How badly do they swarm?
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/19/2010 03:30 PM CDT
>>Is gos viable/worthwhile for a soloing sniper in brig armor <<

Yes. Especially if you are high in level.

Brig started being comfortable for me as an ambusher in the 80s. But knowing what I know now I could hunt brig from level 10 on up.

However, not knowing much about ranged, you may want to listen to others instead.

-E
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/19/2010 10:56 PM CDT
<<-E

Actually with staunching I can hunt with major chest wounds, back wounds, ab wounds, neck wounds, easily for as long as I need to. That's what's nice about the way I hunt. My argument for CoL is based on my build and others like mine. Certain advantages GoS provides would not help me very much (like the padding), and the use of stamina would be a much bigger annoyance than the use of spirit.

I looked at lighter armors. And I dismissed it as being inconsistent with my build. A build which you obviously don't understand the benefits of given your comments about mstrike. Do you enjoy killing crusaders? I enjoy killing them in one shot. I enjoy killing every vvrael destroyer in one shot. I enjoy being able to solo bandits like it's a walk in the park. And when it's appropriate, I can hide and ambush just like every other rogue. And I am not even at cap yet.

Look, there are a lot of ways to build a rogue. The max hide / max dodge / light armor / GoS / dagger ambusher is one, and I'd be the first person to admit it's terribly effective. But it has drawbacks that other builds don't. Try opening your eyes and seeing that there are other viable alternatives.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/20/2010 02:18 AM CDT
>>Actually with staunching I can hunt with major chest wounds, back wounds, ab wounds, neck wounds, easily for as long as I need to. That's what's nice about the way I hunt. <<

Rank 2 wounds to any of these areas create huge penalties for defending against maneuvers. You also can't drag bodies.

Everyone knows broken arms lower your defense, and combinations of arm/hand wounds make casting impossible, but rank 2 and above wounds on other body parts have their cost too.

-E
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/20/2010 02:39 AM CDT
<< Actually with staunching I can hunt with major chest wounds, back wounds, ab wounds, neck wounds, easily for as long as I need to. That's what's nice about the way I hunt. My argument for CoL is based on my build and others like mine. Certain advantages GoS provides would not help me very much (like the padding), and the use of stamina would be a much bigger annoyance than the use of spirit. >>

As a member of Voln, I also hunt with major chest, back, ab and neck wounds easily for as long as I need to.

Josh
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/20/2010 04:10 AM CDT
leg injuries seem to be the worst for me.

can't sneak around a hunting area and definitely huge penalties to many (if not all) maneuvers both defensively and a good amount of them offensively.

-James-
player of Fremie

Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."

Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/20/2010 09:42 AM CDT
Yeah, being able to ignore rank 2 leg wound/scars is the most attractive part of GoS to me. Not having to limp away to safe spot to gobble some herbs would be nice.

-Keleborrn.
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Re: Society for OHE Ambusher 10/20/2010 11:24 AM CDT
Here is my sniping rogue, he is in COL for now but i am thinking about trying GOS with him. The biggest thing i see being an issue for him is swarms. I appreciate any tips or such before i switch societies.

(at level 22), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 120 30 30
Combat Maneuvers...................| 86 19 19
Ranged Weapons.....................| 146 46 46
Ambush.............................| 146 46 46
Physical Fitness...................| 146 46 46
Dodging............................| 169 69 69
Harness Power......................| 25 5 5
Survival...........................| 99 23 23
Stalking and Hiding................| 168 68 68
Perception.........................| 146 46 46
Climbing...........................| 30 6 6
First Aid..........................| 99 23 23
Trading............................| 30 6 6
Training Points: 0 Phy 0 Mnt (166 Mnt converted to Phy)


your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shadow Mastery smastery 3
Multi-Fire mfire 1
Combat Mobility mobility 1

Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 84 (17) ... 84 (17)
Constitution (CON): 89 (14) ... 89 (14)
Dexterity (DEX): 91 (30) ... 91 (30)
Agility (AGI): 91 (25) ... 91 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (1) ... 73 (1)
Aura (AUR): 92 (31) ... 92 (31)
Logic (LOG): 42 (-4) ... 42 (-4)
Intuition (INT): 76 (18) ... 76 (18)
Wisdom (WIS): 68 (14) ... 68 (14)
Influence (INF): 45 (-7) ... 45 (-7)
Mana: 25 Silver: 7


Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Armored Stealth stealth 1

I plan to get the following things:
Swimming -15
Climbing - 15
Shadow Mastery - Rank 5
Combat Mobility - Rank 2
Multifire - Rank 5

I have also heard promising things about Divert and Vanish. He is in Brigande Armor and i do not see him ever going higher than that.
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