Depends on what you are looking for.

GoS gives some great benefits, but CoL will give you +35 AS/DS when you're done.

I love GoS as it will always give you a level-based hunting ground in a warcamp, but my main in Plat is in the Council.

>>I love GoS as it will always give you a level-based hunting ground in a warcamp, but my main in Plat is in the Council.

As I just joined GoS, (also an ambusher) would you mind enlightening me on how to find warcamps or grimswarm? I'm currently stuck with just thunder trolls and ogre warriors to hunt and get credit for. I thought warcamps only came along every 5th rank. And I haven't a clue about grimswarm. Krakii was not as much helped as I had hoped.


Ack! Scarab!

It depends on what else you want to do really.

CoL is the easier one to master, it also requires less to keep its signs up vs GoS sigils. GoS sigils are certainly better then Col signs in the benefits they give you but they require more training as well. To take full advantage of GoS sigils you will want to be at least 1.5x in PF if not x2 and eventually have about 50 ranks of Harness Power. For CoL 5-10 ranks of HP depending on your stats and less as you gain levels, only other thing is to make sure you have enough spirit.

GoS does have a better backstory and a bit more roleplay potential then CoL. I only say potential because most don't seem to really roleplay it at all, they are just in it for the mechanical advantage it provides. The biggest which is that you can hunt warcamps anywhere, no need to travel from some place to hunt if you find yourself drawn there and not wanting to leave.

I'd suggest you read up on the benefits of both for yourself, www.krakiipedia.com is a good place to start. CoL isn't to difficult but GoS can be quite frustrating for people new to it so make sure you know what you are getting into before you make the plunge there.

<<That's not even taking into account all the other benefits. In a comparison of utility, I think GoS wins hands down.

I've never had a character in GoS, and I'm not aware of all the sigils, but I'm going to argue some for CoL being superior for an ambusher, or at least it being a close call.

1) Crit weighting is mostly useless for an ambusher after a certain level, unless you are talking about dagger vs. plate

2) Crit padding is mostly useless unless you are in light armor

3) There are some VERY useful signs that are usually not mentioned in this debate. Staunching means bleeding will never bother you or prematurely end your hunt ever again. Dissipation is +15 to TD, which is huge for rogues since TD is the prime weakness of most. Madness can be very useful for grizzled critter tasks. And finally, healing has saved my life more times than I can count. When I get in trouble (usually stunned, RT, bound etc.) healing is usually the first thing I queue up. It's typically a race between me dying and my stun/RT ending, since if I can get healing off I can always subsequently escape. Now, you can argue you could just as easily do something else like crawl away but that is a lot riskier in my opinion given the RT it incurs.

4) As a square, you have mana and spirit which you probably don't use much and stamina which you probably do use (surge, shadow mastery, etc.). GoS draws from that precious resource pool while CoL does not.

Now, I'm not a stealth rogue. I wear plate and I use heavy weapons. If you are the dagger/stealth type, then GoS weighting/padding will be more useful and healing will probably be slightly less useful. But I personally wouldn't switch to GoS and I view CoL as mechanically superior for my build.

I disagree on the padding, but that is a matter of opinion.

Sigil of Mending increases healing by +15 and allows you to eat all herbs in 3 sec RT. It's the counterpart to staunching. I'd call it even with that.

Sigil of Focus adds +20 TD. Beats out dissaption by 5.

Sigil of Health restores half your lost HPs. Not bad. Call that a wash with sign of healing.

It's typically a race between me dying and my stun/RT ending, since if I can get healing off I can always subsequently escape

And here is where GoS wins hands down. Sigil of Escape. Usable when stunned or in RT to move a couple of rooms away, at the cost of major nerve wounds. Kind of like a get out of jail free cars, usable once per day. No need to wait for stun or RT to be over.


As for crit weighting, yeah, if you are an ambushed, thats not all that useful. I'll give you that.


Drawback to GoS: longer to master, but more importantly, it costs stamina for the sigils. You should be at least 1x in PF anyhow, and if you are, your stamina is pretty good, and if you are more than 1x, you should be doing great. I don't play a rogue, so I can't say, but I do play a weapon swinging pure, that uses cmans and GoS sigils, and I generally don't have a problem with stamina. Oh, and I am not talking about a 3x PF empath, merely a 1x PF warsorc. I am able to keep major bane and prot up at all times, as well as the other important ones.

Your mileage may vary, of course.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

The costs of the CoL abilities are delightfully unbalanced towards the cheap side though. It takes minimal effort to keep +35 AS, +35 DS, +15 TD and another +20 bolt DS up perpetually once you hit 40 or so (unless you're an and have crappy spirit regen, then it takes a a couple more levels).

If I did it all over again I'd probably go GoS though. Mostly for the crit padding (maneuvers!) and the 'you can do stuff while wounded that you can't normally do' one (stalking and hiding!)

Also, while I do have a lot of stamina, I use it all. I wouldn't be able to spew as many CMANs in GoS.

-Keleborrn.

Good thing your warrior pays 9/0 to double PF per level!

>Good thing your warrior pays 9/0 to double PF per level!

>I shouldn't be so snarky, as 6/0 isn't a whole lot better.

What warrior doesn't 2x PF anyway?

>My point is that CoL is pretty much 'free' to keep up.

But my point was that GoS is, too. For a warrior, anyway. And given the choice to spend stamina or spirit as part of my societal cost, I'd much rather spend the stamina.

~ Lumi

>That's fantastic. Especially as this is the rogue general discussion. <WYNTRFRSH>

I'll let the statement stand for squares seeing as how I'm sure my warrior uses more stamina than a like-level rogue would.

Make sure you note that the GoS sigils don't last very long. Not being a script or macro user, this can be a little bit of a headache.

Mending + Determination may not be better than staunching alone, but Determination is a godsend when you're wounded and you need to land CMans as it ignores up to rank 2 wounds.

---

-- dan/gnimble

>>Sold on focus > dissipation.

Smart.

>>Sold on escape being a key advantage.

Smart. Not just an escape, but a nice vanilla transport to the nearest Sunfist HQ.

>>Not totally sold on mending + determination > staunching. It seems like if you're injured very badly mending + determination would be better but for the countless times I take a chest or back or arm or neck bleeder I can ignore it/them completely with staunching.

Who cares about bleeding? If you're losing so much blood it matters, you need to stop hunting and get healed. If you think you can hunt with major chest neck and back wounds, I'd like to introduce you to the maneuver penalty you are ignoring. Big mistake to continue a hunt with a bleeder - unless you have Determination. Then you can keep going. Even with a broken arm. And you can drag friends. And complete climbing and swimming checks. And if your blood drops too low, you can use Sigil of Health and not lose spirit.

>>Not sold on health being close to as good as healing.

You can use it as much as you want and not worry about being debilitated by spirit loss. I think healing isn't close to as useful as health.

>>Not sold on crit padding being very useful for a rogue in plate.

a) Maneuvers that cause crit wounds bypass everything... except crit padding. Nice thing to have running in front of a roa'ter.
b) Heavy damage padding (Sigil of Minor Bane) is a very nice alternative.
c) I suggest looking at lighter armors anyway.

>>And I guess I'm more stamina intensive than most rogues because with 114 stamina and +15 stamina recovery I use it all against most monsters I hunt. Although a big portion of that is mstrike I guess.

I think a rogue that relies on mstrike is doing it wrong but that's a different discussion.

I really can't see an argument for CoL short of, I dislike the Sunfist quest, it's too hard, and I don't mind spirit loss deciding when my hunts end. 16.6 minutes is a long time until it isn't. (And then if you like the Rift at all, it's that much more of a pain.) Whereas I never end a hunt, as a capped Sunfist master, due to being low on stamina or mana. Never. Only when I have too much loot or have completed a bounty.

-E

How many millions post-cap are you, E?

<<Welp. I think the moral of the story for the original asker is: Whatever you pick, that was the wrong choice.

LOL...for me, I think the moral of the story is to go with GoS, given all of the arguments I've read thus far. :)

>>How many millions post-cap are you, E? <<

Total experience is 14 point something.

I will grant I mastered Sunfist after cap and so have experienced the best my TPs have to offer it. But I also took two level 30somethings out of CoL and into Sunfist and I love it with them too.

I think Sunfist's powers are ridiculously more useful than Voln's or CoL's, which is a shame, because I love those societies as roleplaying vehicles. Players should be able to pick them for roleplaying reasons and still have mechanical advantages on par with Sunfist.

-E

<<Is gos viable/worthwhile for a soloing sniper in brig armor

Yes. Especially if you're hunting hated enemies because then your arrows/bolts can have crit weighting against those enemies.


-Adam

---

"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous

>>Is gos viable/worthwhile for a soloing sniper in brig armor <<

Yes. Especially if you are high in level.

Brig started being comfortable for me as an ambusher in the 80s. But knowing what I know now I could hunt brig from level 10 on up.

However, not knowing much about ranged, you may want to listen to others instead.

-E

>>Actually with staunching I can hunt with major chest wounds, back wounds, ab wounds, neck wounds, easily for as long as I need to. That's what's nice about the way I hunt. <<

Rank 2 wounds to any of these areas create huge penalties for defending against maneuvers. You also can't drag bodies.

Everyone knows broken arms lower your defense, and combinations of arm/hand wounds make casting impossible, but rank 2 and above wounds on other body parts have their cost too.

-E

leg injuries seem to be the worst for me.

can't sneak around a hunting area and definitely huge penalties to many (if not all) maneuvers both defensively and a good amount of them offensively.

-James-
player of Fremie

Mirayam says, "You are not a rogue, sir."

Mirayam exclaims, "You are noble!"

Here is my sniping rogue, he is in COL for now but i am thinking about trying GOS with him. The biggest thing i see being an issue for him is swarms. I appreciate any tips or such before i switch societies.

(at level 22), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 120 30 30
Combat Maneuvers...................| 86 19 19
Ranged Weapons.....................| 146 46 46
Ambush.............................| 146 46 46
Physical Fitness...................| 146 46 46
Dodging............................| 169 69 69
Harness Power......................| 25 5 5
Survival...........................| 99 23 23
Stalking and Hiding................| 168 68 68
Perception.........................| 146 46 46
Climbing...........................| 30 6 6
First Aid..........................| 99 23 23
Trading............................| 30 6 6
Training Points: 0 Phy 0 Mnt (166 Mnt converted to Phy)


your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shadow Mastery smastery 3
Multi-Fire mfire 1
Combat Mobility mobility 1

Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 84 (17) ... 84 (17)
Constitution (CON): 89 (14) ... 89 (14)
Dexterity (DEX): 91 (30) ... 91 (30)
Agility (AGI): 91 (25) ... 91 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (1) ... 73 (1)
Aura (AUR): 92 (31) ... 92 (31)
Logic (LOG): 42 (-4) ... 42 (-4)
Intuition (INT): 76 (18) ... 76 (18)
Wisdom (WIS): 68 (14) ... 68 (14)
Influence (INF): 45 (-7) ... 45 (-7)
Mana: 25 Silver: 7


Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Armored Stealth stealth 1

I plan to get the following things:
Swimming -15
Climbing - 15
Shadow Mastery - Rank 5
Combat Mobility - Rank 2
Multifire - Rank 5

I have also heard promising things about Divert and Vanish. He is in Brigande Armor and i do not see him ever going higher than that.