I'm going to chime in that I really like the PVE Pickpocketing quest examples. If those were a thing, I'd actually play my Rogue more.

Perhaps it could be like the Skinning tasks at the Adventurer's Guild - a specific threshold of Pickpocketing skill required to trigger assigning of those tasks, considering all professions can essentially train in it. Not sure if it'd fit in with the Adventurer's Guild 'good guy' sort of mentality, unless the tasks were to steal from/B&E into a known smuggler/bad guy's house.

Or perhaps, as someone else said, add it to the Profession guilds as Profession guild tasks that are completely separate from Guild reps/ranks (kind of like the GOS Taskmaster?). This would at least give some use to the dusty and ill-used Ranger/Bard guilds, but would require some forethought as to tasks to fit each profession. (And Monks and Paladins would need to be made a guild, so that'd be a bit farfetched due to the extra building/QC required.) But overall I really like the PVE mini-quest/task idea that takes Pickpocketing skill into account.

As far as the PVP/CVC type of Pickpocketing - not sure how to improve that bit. There is usually not much interaction unless the Rogue is caught and 90% of the time they run off and hide somewhere. I know I made an attempt at it with my Rogue at first, though it just wasn't my thing and I untrained Pickpocketing skill long ago.

Long-term a PvE situation with wandering NPCs around town(s). Could be an adventurer's guild task with a skill threshold.

>>As a long time player of a rogue, and this is just my personal opinion (not official in any way), I see no real way to make pickpocketing fun for the mark. I don't see the mechanics of it as it stands as actually promoting RP for the reasons already stated: 1.) if you succeed there is no interaction and no RP, 2.) if you get caught, the majority of players result to OOC methods of handling the situation such as PvP. I would like to see the skill play a part in other mechanics such as the disarm trap forumla (not sure who suggested that but it was a great idea in my opinion). As it stands now, my PC does not, and will not, train in it.--GM Mazreth

A very sensible and reasonable response. A discussion of what to do with the pickpocketing skill to make it useful while taking away the CvC aspect of it would be much more productive.

>> I think that it's fun, but I understand and respect those of you who don't, and I would prefer to have a system that everybody wants to participate in in some way.--GM Ixix

While I can appreciate the sentiment there, I do not see anything you could do to make me want to participate in CvC pickpocketing. It's just not fun to be stolen from, it is not interactive when the thief succeeds, the penalties if the thief is caught are so light as to be no real disincentive, lower-level characters who are targeted by higher-level characters have no meaningful recourse, and in the end even if the thief is eventually caught the victims still lose their items and coins. If keeping the CvC skill is somehow necessary, then the best solution would be to allow those of us who do not want to participate to opt out, and let those who do enjoy it have their fun with each other.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

Crime, it would help me to understand if you would explain why you want to steal from people who don't want to engage in that type of roleplaying.

I do agree that permanent item loss should be removed from the justice system, but why do you feel it should be removed, and what penalties would you suggest replacing it with?

VEYTHORNE

"Crime, it would help me to understand if you would explain why you want to steal from people who don't want to engage in that type of roleplaying.

I do agree that permanent item loss should be removed from the justice system, but why do you feel it should be removed, and what penalties would you suggest replacing it with?

The first part of your comment has nothing to do with anything I've said in any context. I said make the system more fun. I personally love the theft aspect, but would like to see real actionable consequences. I also love many of the suggestions offered by others.

Removal of item loss from the jail system itself would remove the taboo of arresting people. No worries you'll do any real harm to someone. I don't see an immediate.need to replace it with anything, but a gm could be creative in a solution.


DVDMORSE


">The silent majority disagrees.

Majority? Again, evidence?"

You just ignore comments from people, go's, you're trolling.

Nuff said.

Talk to people and listen.

People and GM's (not go's) love the skill.

I am one of them, and want to see it on the radar.

Truth is I seldom stole from players many years ago (but could), and lack of consequences made it boring then, but now it just stinks. Not being able to steal from a merchant is depressing. I needed Xmas presents for my friends and they wanted me to pay for everything! I also used to be able to steal from NPC's in the story line.

Assuming that I were inclined to be a thief, the first thing that I'd do in that scenario is get a job as a burly bodyguard.


To go back to being serious, I appreciate the input from everybody, and encourage everybody to speak up if they want. A lot of good ideas and points of interest have been brought up.


Ixix

Id like to see some passive pick pocket options for rogues only such as;

Sleight of hand, selling in pawn, gem, or furrier with enough skill and there's a chance the item stays in hand.

Swapsies, Walking through a crowded room and you've taken a high value gem while the pc suddenly has a duplicate on their person worth 1 coin (whats this 1 coin uncut diamond! THIEF!)

Five finger discount, at a merchant you buy something but have a passive chance to recieve a discount as if you had same skill or more in trading as if you stole as you were buying.

>You just ignore comments from people, go's, you're trolling.

No, I have been responding directly to your comments. You continue to claim to speak for a majority, so I ask for evidence of that. You have none, apparently, so your response is to accuse me of trolling. You are entitled to your own opinions, but if you want to claim to speak for anyone other than yourself, you need to be able to prove that you have some authority for doing so. Otherwise you are speaking for a majority that does not exist, and I am not willing to let that claim go unchallenged.

You claim to want to have a discussion, but you dismiss and insult those who do not agree with you. I've tried to give reasons for my positions over and over again, but I have not claimed to speak for anyone but myself. Let's go one way or the other on this: if we are arguing based on our own opinions, then stick to that. If you are going to claim authority of some kind to speak for others, then you need to be able to substantiate your right to do so. That's not trolling; it's the way educated, adult discussions should work.

Bottom line: I'm not going to stop disagreeing with you, stating my positions, or questioning what you present as factual statements just because it makes you uncomfortable. You have a simple solution: either just speak for yourself or give the evidence to back up your statements that I request, if it exists.

I am honestly trying to do this as politely as possible, but polite does not mean accepting unsubstantiated statements as fact.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

How about something on the Mark's side for when a thief is caught. It disregards the level of the thief compared to the mark. Anyone under level 15 cannot be stolen from unless they wish to set their theft flag to allow pick pockets.

I say level 15 for a couple of reasons that I'll get into for an explaination and as to why the levels between the mark and thief should be ignored.

I pick level 15 because:
that's the level characters can join their perspective guilds and start training in guild skills.
characters have some CMAN maneuvers trained in
have decent number of spells known for semi/pure class

Basically, everyone has some kind of ability/maneuver/spell they have access to.

examples:
Wizard would most likely have access to the Sleep spell (501) or maybe Cold Snap (512)
Warrior may have started guild training in tackle or CMAN such as shield bash
Ranger may have learned Tangle Weed (610) or Sounds (607) or perhaps CMAN such as Dirtkick
Empath may have learned Empahty (1108) or Calm (201)

My point is, most everyone (out side of some off the wall builds) should have some kind of "defender" spell/ability to trigger against a thief that's caught stealing from them. Thus, my reasoning that under level 15 characters are off limit unless they wish to turn on their "you can steal from me" flag. Once you're level 15, it's fair game.

Every attempt for a pickpocket, there should be a 5% failure regardless of a thief's skills. Now, if a Thief tries to steal from Mark and fails:

Mark automatically retaliates against the Thief in a non-lethal way
Thief failed to pickpocket a Wizard - wizard catches thief and automatically encases thief in ice with Cold Snap or puts them to sleep with the Sleep spell. The Mark now gets 30 seconds to choose a way to handle the thief, if no choice is made then the thief gets to slink off and hide.

Or maybe...

Thief failed to pickpocket a Warrior - warrior catches thief and automatically swings his shield from his shoulder and tags the Thief with a shield bash that knocks him on his butt. The Mark now gets 30 seconds to choose a way to handle the thief, if no choice is made then the thief gets to slink off and hide.

Caught thief can be handled in a few ways - each option will return any item/silver from the botched attempt unless the thief is let go or no option is picked:
1) Choose to force thief to return what was stolen during the botched attempt
2) Publicly humiliate the target somehow (law puts thief in stocks, you get to toss a few rotten vegetables at the thief)
3) choose to press charges and force the law to arrest the thief
4) let the thief go scot-free
5) some other form of punishment people can think of

The way I see it, if a Mark is AFK and they choose no action against the thief, other people in the room will at least know the guy was stealing and can WATCH the thief. The thief will get away without any other repercussions. If the Mark is active at the keyboard, they get to choose how to punish the thief...or if they feel like it, let the thief go.

This system bypasses CS/TD/CMAN skill, etc and doesn't take level into account. If a thief is level 100 and the wizard mark is level 15, but the mark catches the thief - an automatic cast of 501 puts the target to sleep until A) the Mark decides how to punish the thief or B) no choice is made and the thief can run off

-Drumpel

FLAG AUTOACCUSE Spotting a theft will cause the justice system to be automatically invoked in the same way as being murdered does (charges may still be dismissed)

A cry of "thief" goes up. A posse of vigilantes pounces on the hapless XXX and holds her until the constable arrives. The constable searches XXX's pockets. "These items look stolen", he pronounces, "you'd better have them back", as he hands over a small sack to YYY.

(Every item that is potentially thievable in the possession of the thief is handed over to the accuser, either in restitution or as a reward)

"As a note, the person who was jailed should know who accused them" -- Crime

You're thinking of 18th-through-20th-century-Earth American rights and privileges. We're set several hundred (notional) years before that.
One of the reasons why the right to face your accusers was enshrined by the Framers was that it used to be extremely common NOT to have any knowledge of who was accusing you.

And hey, if the character is as big a deal a Thief as he wants to be... he's stolen from so many people, he can't even remember them all. :)

Just a few thoughts and ideas...

Pickpocketing CvC.

Personally, permanent item loss aside, I think the penalties in the justice system and the penalties for being a repeat offender are much too soft. When you have a known pickpocket that has been caught in the act numerous times you don't simply continue to let them roam around town like a regular citizen after spending 20 minutes in the stocks!

I don't mind that thieves are allowed to pick pockets from characters - but the penalties for being caught (again ignoring potential permanent item loss) don't appear to serve as a serious detriment to the would be offender.

When a thief it caught put a mark on their forehead that can only be removed via a very costly and time consuming process. While the mark is in place, have the rogue treated as a 2nd class citizen at best in various ways in their interaction with townsfolk. Give people a bonus to detecting sneaky behaviour - there's a fellow with an ugly mark on his forehead sidling up next to you - you most likely want to avoid them or keep a sharp eye on them.

If a rogue is caught stealing while they already have a mark on them then they should suffer harsher penalties - maybe their items are confiscated for 30 days, banished from town, access to bank accounts are restricted (you can only withdraw up to 50k per day or something), penalties that might actually cause someone to consider if they really want to steal or not.

The above are just ideas but hopefully they are representative of the types of meaningful penalties that I'd like to see... and with that, I'd be much more in favor of allowing rogues to ply their trade at will against other characters. Said differently, I don't mind being stolen from when I feel that the penalties for rogues that are caught are appropriate (which I don't at present).

Rogues guild

I'd love to see this skill developed via the rogues guild where the rogue is sent out to accomplish various tasks on behalf of the guild. This could even include planting information or stealing items from characters (but in this case when you steal from a player you receive a 'stolen object' that would be turned into the guild for a reward. Overall I would see it as a way to test the rogues skills in general:
- go to a location and hide and observe an interaction, if the rogue is discovered then they might have to fight it out with the npcs. If not then they could report back what they overheard to the guild.
- go to a town location and steal an object from a merchant / NPC / Player and turn it into the guild for a reward.
- Break into a location (lockpick skill) and acquire something without being discovered - players could report suspicious activity as well as NPCs - return the item to the guild.

Just a few examples but this could be expanded upon.

Pickpocket skill

This has been mentioned a few times already but I think allowing a rogue to 'plant' items on other players would be a positive step in improving this skill.


Stealing from players idea

When a rogue is stealing from players the value of the silver and items stolen should be tracked over time by the system. If a rogue is caught, then they should have a multiple of this amount (2x?, 3x?) removed from their account in addition to whatever justice system penalty is applied. This would serve to temper a rogues behavior since as they steal more they also risk more within the time period (7 days, 30 days, not sure what would be appropriate).

e.g. you might steal 50k over the course of a week but if you get caught you will face a penalty for your crime plus suffer a direct loss of 100k/150k (some multiplier amount) in addition. This would reset at the end of the time period. I'm leaning towards a longer period, like a month, but maybe a shorter period could work as well.


Another thought around stealing from players

What about implementing a hard timer on how frequently this skill can be used against players? So you stole a star sapphire from someone and you go to steal again but...
"You feel your actions might be noticed should you continue to press your luck and decide it would be better to wait awhile before trying this again..."


-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

I love Robert's ideas and would be for that sort of change.

Lighter weight means easier to punish too :)

It's better to have the fun of constant interaction than dead silence of none.

Punishment now has too much risk (item loss).

For me, the fear of item loss isn't specific to picking pockets. If I were to accidentally botch a trap and have a pending warrant, I have to choose to either take care of it immediately, or log out. If I forget, and go AFK, and happen to be arrested, I could lose everything I've got.

There could be other scenarios where a pending warrant is active as well, you cast a harmful spell at someone, or give them a quick swing. They accuse you and you're not aware that you've been accused, so you AFK, and are arrested and then penniless. It's just an extreme punishment for any offense and doesn't make sense.

Plus, getting dressed after being arrested is a pain. I would prefer the justice system to just arrest someone and toss them into a room. They don't need to be strip searched.


I am for harsher penalties for petty theft though. I like the suggestion of marking the thief. Once you've been marked 3 times, the justice system should automatically kick in if you enter the town. It should also be acceptable for anyone to kill a thief after being spotted. If death isn't an acceptable resolution for stealing, then you should have to agree to CvC before being stolen from as well.

Here's an example.

You don't realize someone has turned you in and a warrant is out for your arrest. You finish hunting, return to a node, hide, go AFK and leave. You return hours later to find everything is gone.

Another example,

You bully someone, playfully or not, and someone watching turns you in. You go AFK, leave and return, blam everything is gone.

That mechanic has to go. You can't have anyone arrested without fear of truly hurting them, or worse someone does it to hurt you intentionally.

Point is the moment you accuse anyone you set things in motion that may be out of anyone's control.

In my case I got caught stealing from merchants once (well 50 times+) and had no idea it was linked to the town jail / fine system. Ended up with a 20m+ fine and lost everything. GM's did return them.

I don't care about the pain of dressing, that's the least a thief should cry about lol.

>FLAG AUTOACCUSE Spotting a theft will cause the justice system to be automatically invoked in the same way as being murdered does (charges may still be dismissed)

>A cry of "thief" goes up. A posse of vigilantes pounces on the hapless XXX and holds her until the constable arrives. The constable searches XXX's pockets. "These items look stolen", he pronounces, "you'd better have them back", as he hands over a small sack to YYY.

>(Every item that is potentially thievable in the possession of the thief is handed over to the accuser, either in restitution or as a reward)

That's a good start, Rath. I like it.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

I don't think it's constructive. I believe the point is being missing that we like the mechanic and want to support it and encourage it, however alter it into a form that'll be fun.

We don't want to overly punish or people will simply not want to use it, and that's bad game design.

To be constructive you'd need to offer suggestions that might make the mechanic flow work in a fun manner.

>I don't think it's constructive. I believe the point is being missing that we like the mechanic and want to support it and encourage it, however alter it into a form that'll be fun.

That "we" is not all inclusive. Some of the people here like the mechanic. Some do not. And we seem to have very different definitions of fun.

>>To be constructive you also need to listen to the feedback from the GM's and be realistic.

I have even quoted GMs in my posts in this thread, so I think we can assume I am listening, and I do not believe I have said anything that cannot be done, so I do not see what is unrealistic.

>Your incessant harping on "remove the skill" is boring.

Well, it's not like I am the only one who has said that. But I may just be a boring guy. You have two solutions: get used to it or put me on ignore. I promise my feelings will not be hurt if you choose the latter option.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"