1. Merchants - used to be able to get gear from them at events. I stole 6x shields off the shelf.
2. Stealing vs players, I didn't say make it so you could go back to robbing people blind. I said make it more fun. Fix the jail system, catch a thief and have them arrested. etc. Sorry, but it is what a rogue / thief has always been about in roleplay. Get over it. It's not like they're going to make you a pauper in game, but lack of risk around a rogue is a sad thing, not something to be happy about. And if it were fun to have them arrested with no item loss possible, it adds to the fun.
I think those that responded to the complete negative knee jerked a reply, perhaps a touch more perspective on how to make a mechanic fun. I agree that the old mechanic was unbalanced, but the new mechanic sucks. Where is the run if there is no risk, and what fun to have a thief arrested without fear of them losing hundreds of millions of silver in item value!
CRIME
KRAKII
Re: More thought, less whining.
12/26/2016 12:14 PM CST
At how many events, and in how many shops at them? I'm guessing "few" and "a couple".
I remember trying at event after event, in shop after shop, and getting a great deal of bupkes.
Town shops didn't even have available inventory out, because the Merchant Manager didn't create items until you ordered them.
So, routine complete failure, being double-trained in the skill. I mean for anything actually worth something, not a couple thousand silvers or even a high-end gem (which is a new addition, after I dumped the skill).
Compared to the payoff from Trading--where with barely 10 ranks (less than .5x trained) and a crap CHArisma score, at event after event I frequently got 30+% discounts... and then I devoted some serious effort to it--was beyond disappointing.
On the other hand, I remember reading complaint after complaint on the Boards from victims. The eventual change made the furrier, pawnshop, gemshop, and bank such that you couldn't steal inside of them, because people would just lurk in there and strip the gains from returning hunters. Then you just had to take a chance while walking from one to the next... and that was so successful, in Hearthstone they put the gemshop right next to the banker.
.
They very sensibly got rid of the 'Riding' skill as a trainable ability. This would be another prime choice for the same treatment.
I remember trying at event after event, in shop after shop, and getting a great deal of bupkes.
Town shops didn't even have available inventory out, because the Merchant Manager didn't create items until you ordered them.
So, routine complete failure, being double-trained in the skill. I mean for anything actually worth something, not a couple thousand silvers or even a high-end gem (which is a new addition, after I dumped the skill).
Compared to the payoff from Trading--where with barely 10 ranks (less than .5x trained) and a crap CHArisma score, at event after event I frequently got 30+% discounts... and then I devoted some serious effort to it--was beyond disappointing.
On the other hand, I remember reading complaint after complaint on the Boards from victims. The eventual change made the furrier, pawnshop, gemshop, and bank such that you couldn't steal inside of them, because people would just lurk in there and strip the gains from returning hunters. Then you just had to take a chance while walking from one to the next... and that was so successful, in Hearthstone they put the gemshop right next to the banker.
.
They very sensibly got rid of the 'Riding' skill as a trainable ability. This would be another prime choice for the same treatment.
DOUG
Re: More thought, less whining.
12/26/2016 12:25 PM CST
>>Where is the run if there is no risk
Well, conceptually that certainly has my vote. If there were a way to make it increasingly more likely to be caught the more you attempted to lift against a single target, and if the 'response' were commensurate - say a return of the items / silver, and a like amount in fines / fees, and perhaps a temporary branding or item that could not be removed that warned any 'alert' person that a thief were in their midst - it could get interesting.
The target might not know if a few silvers went missing, but dip several times and nearly anyone is likely to know they're getting lighter.
Doug
Well, conceptually that certainly has my vote. If there were a way to make it increasingly more likely to be caught the more you attempted to lift against a single target, and if the 'response' were commensurate - say a return of the items / silver, and a like amount in fines / fees, and perhaps a temporary branding or item that could not be removed that warned any 'alert' person that a thief were in their midst - it could get interesting.
The target might not know if a few silvers went missing, but dip several times and nearly anyone is likely to know they're getting lighter.
Doug
OM1E5GA
Re: More thought, less whining.
12/26/2016 06:43 PM CST
I agree that it really isn't worth training in PP as it stands. There are few places where it's even worth attempting to use the skill and fewer players that are both interested in attempting to RP the interaction AND skilled enough to do so without having it devolve into mechanics based combat (for clarity, I'm referring to both thieves AND marks).
I don't think it should just be done away with though. Every town has a pawnshop, gems shop, and alchemist (at the very least) with items on shelves that could be stolen and I've advocated for years that that's the direction the skill should be going in. I've also suggested introducing mechanics that would allow players to STEAL from critters that carry loot.
If either one of those things were done (though preferably both), I'd have no problem with making STEAL not work at all on other players. I held out on that for a long time, but I've come to realize that the majority of folk in GS just aren't capable of separating themselves from their characters and\or aren't skilled enough to roleplay conflict without resorting to combat mechanics.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I don't think it should just be done away with though. Every town has a pawnshop, gems shop, and alchemist (at the very least) with items on shelves that could be stolen and I've advocated for years that that's the direction the skill should be going in. I've also suggested introducing mechanics that would allow players to STEAL from critters that carry loot.
If either one of those things were done (though preferably both), I'd have no problem with making STEAL not work at all on other players. I held out on that for a long time, but I've come to realize that the majority of folk in GS just aren't capable of separating themselves from their characters and\or aren't skilled enough to roleplay conflict without resorting to combat mechanics.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
DVDMORSE
Re: More thought, less whining.
12/26/2016 09:33 PM CST
>I've come to realize that the majority of folk in GS just aren't capable of separating themselves from their characters and\or aren't skilled enough to roleplay conflict without resorting to combat mechanics.
I would not characterize the issue this way. I'd say we all play the game to have fun, and it is not fun to be bullied--to have your character stolen from and be able to do nothing about it, even if you do manage to catch the thief, because the thief is higher level. If all characters were on a level playing field it might be different, but in a level-based gam that will not happen. You can say we can deal with it without combat, but I have yet to see a thief who could be talked into giving items back. And many of us do not enjoy PvP anyway, so even if one can retaliate, being put in a situation where you can just accept being stolen from or engage in PvP that you do not want is simply not fun.
In the real world, if someone steals from you and is caught, you can hope that the person will receive meaningful punishment. But real punishments in Gemstone--like being locked up for months or years-- would not make the game more fun. So in the absence of real consequences, getting rid of the skill would make more sense.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
I would not characterize the issue this way. I'd say we all play the game to have fun, and it is not fun to be bullied--to have your character stolen from and be able to do nothing about it, even if you do manage to catch the thief, because the thief is higher level. If all characters were on a level playing field it might be different, but in a level-based gam that will not happen. You can say we can deal with it without combat, but I have yet to see a thief who could be talked into giving items back. And many of us do not enjoy PvP anyway, so even if one can retaliate, being put in a situation where you can just accept being stolen from or engage in PvP that you do not want is simply not fun.
In the real world, if someone steals from you and is caught, you can hope that the person will receive meaningful punishment. But real punishments in Gemstone--like being locked up for months or years-- would not make the game more fun. So in the absence of real consequences, getting rid of the skill would make more sense.
--David
"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
OM1E5GA
Re: More thought, less whining.
12/26/2016 11:21 PM CST
<I would not characterize the issue this way. I'd say we all play the game to have fun, and it is not fun to be bullied--to have your character stolen from and be able to do nothing about it, even if you do manage to catch the thief, because the thief is higher level. If all characters were on a level playing field it might be different, but in a level-based gam that will not happen. You can say we can deal with it without combat, but I have yet to see a thief who could be talked into giving items back. And many of us do not enjoy PvP anyway, so even if one can retaliate, being put in a situation where you can just accept being stolen from or engage in PvP that you do not want is simply not fun.>
I find it interesting that my note about the quoted comment applying to both parties wasn't included by either person that responded to it.
Yes, there have been many people in the past that have flat out abused PP mechanics. They are just as much to blame for any lack of interaction as the people that take a swing at or cast at someone they think is pickpocketing from them with little or no other interaction.
I can't speak to your experiences with thieves, but there have certainly been quite a few I've seen that would give back items, esp if it was something hard to come by. Heck, two of the most complained about thieves since 2001 are among them as I've witnessed them both give items back after a period of RP or an OOC whisper explaining why the item was important to someone. When they would flat out refuse to give back items was when people just killed them on the spot or kept them stunned/silenced/etc for extended periods.
There are some VERY skilled RPers in GS but, for a RP game, the percentage of people that put any effort into it has always been pretty low. Trying to RP any kind of conflict with people you aren't already familiar with tends to lead to hard feelings quickly. This is why Star rarely uses the STEAL verb at all (if you think he's STEALing, there's a 99.5% chance it's either someone else, you didn't have what you thought you did on you to begin with, and/or or I just did a REALLY good job playing him) and I even feel out most people a bit before starting his more annoying antics.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
I find it interesting that my note about the quoted comment applying to both parties wasn't included by either person that responded to it.
Yes, there have been many people in the past that have flat out abused PP mechanics. They are just as much to blame for any lack of interaction as the people that take a swing at or cast at someone they think is pickpocketing from them with little or no other interaction.
I can't speak to your experiences with thieves, but there have certainly been quite a few I've seen that would give back items, esp if it was something hard to come by. Heck, two of the most complained about thieves since 2001 are among them as I've witnessed them both give items back after a period of RP or an OOC whisper explaining why the item was important to someone. When they would flat out refuse to give back items was when people just killed them on the spot or kept them stunned/silenced/etc for extended periods.
There are some VERY skilled RPers in GS but, for a RP game, the percentage of people that put any effort into it has always been pretty low. Trying to RP any kind of conflict with people you aren't already familiar with tends to lead to hard feelings quickly. This is why Star rarely uses the STEAL verb at all (if you think he's STEALing, there's a 99.5% chance it's either someone else, you didn't have what you thought you did on you to begin with, and/or or I just did a REALLY good job playing him) and I even feel out most people a bit before starting his more annoying antics.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
PFLATS
Re: More thought, less whining.
12/27/2016 10:58 AM CST
>When they would flat out refuse to give back items was when people just killed them on the spot or kept them stunned/silenced/etc for extended periods.
Why shouldn't the person get the item back, though? You catch a thief, but literally the only way to get your item returned is to RP the "right way", or worse, use OOC whispers?
How does that make sense? Why should I have to go OOC to resolve an IC issue? Why does a player have to kiss up to make sure the thief's player is happy with his/her roleplaying experience to get their item back?
Even if your character has the power to keep them frozen in place until they day they die, or kill them instantly on the spot, you're still unable to slip your white crystal out of their hands.
The system is bad. Gemstone's not the game for a good thieving system, but it exists for legacy reasons in a nebulous space that's barely fun for the thief and rarely fun for anyone on the receiving end.
Why shouldn't the person get the item back, though? You catch a thief, but literally the only way to get your item returned is to RP the "right way", or worse, use OOC whispers?
How does that make sense? Why should I have to go OOC to resolve an IC issue? Why does a player have to kiss up to make sure the thief's player is happy with his/her roleplaying experience to get their item back?
Even if your character has the power to keep them frozen in place until they day they die, or kill them instantly on the spot, you're still unable to slip your white crystal out of their hands.
The system is bad. Gemstone's not the game for a good thieving system, but it exists for legacy reasons in a nebulous space that's barely fun for the thief and rarely fun for anyone on the receiving end.
