This topics started off as idea for a third dark elf culture and evolved into the idea of the Multi race culture. Many of the reasons were talked about in the other board but to sum up.

1) Culture is not something you are born with it is learned so it should not be tied to race or birth.
2) This would provide a option for those that do not fit into any one specific culture.

I think that was all the basic ideas touched on.

Xynwen is this something we should email you about?

"I am not sold on the idea of a "catchall" culture, so explain the ideas behind it. Because to me, that's the same as no culture...if no culture offered currently "fits" and this multi-race culture is the fallback for those characters, then it's not really a culture."

Well your right it would not be a catchall, It would have it's own ideas and would only catch those people that like the ideas. Like every other culture.

Currently there are MHO groups that would qualify for the idea of a multi-race culture. Some are miltia based. Those could be considered a culture. Just like the Marines have a culture, the army, navy, and the countless other types of "cultures" by the basic definition.

Culture- "the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group."

So would that apply to MHO groups also?

<<Culture- "the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group."--Rabourgeau

There are many definitions of culture, and yes, this is a decent one for a starting point. However, I'm not looking at a culture of this magnitude as something more akin to a "culture" blurb you would hear in the office (creating a culture of safety, a teamwork culture, etc). So, a "culture" within a militia, while still a culture of a sort, is not the sort of culture I'm talking about. Otherwise, you're open to way too many potential "culture" choices, and that dilutes everything, in my opinion.

The cultures you can select now are mostly geographically driven, and thus, racially driven as well.

<<Well your right it would not be a catchall, It would have it's own ideas and would only catch those people that like the ideas. Like every other culture.--ibid

Joining a group does not a culture make. You often do not get to choose your culture. You might adopt a culture that you like, but you will still be coloured by your own upbringing and culture. So, my erithi might LOVE Ta'Loenthra and really, really relate to their culture, but he's not ever going to be of the culture of Ta'Loenthra, because too much of who he is was shaped by the Dai he is from.

<<Currently there are MHO groups that would qualify for the idea of a multi-race culture. Some are miltia based. Those could be considered a culture. Just like the Marines have a culture, the army, navy, and the countless other types of "cultures" by the basic definition.--ibid

Well, I'm not positive that there are any MHO groups right now that actually qualify for a true, multi-race culture. However, I am not intimately familiar with each group. So, if you have specifics of one that you think fits the bill, please feel free to share.


--Xynwen--
"The stars go waltzing out in blue and red, And arbitrary blackness gallops in"

You see Akeedin the Healer. He appears to be a Nalfein elf from Torre.
____________________________________________

Or why not allow citizenship be allow to be displayed.

which brings me to this... Are the different cultures of elves based on their physical features? If so then you could tell Akeedin was an elf of Nalfein decent. However, by his accent and mannerisms you can tell he is from Torre.

If Elven cultures (this applies to any race) are recognized not by physical features but by accent and mannerisms and perhaps dress, then you would see Akeedin as en elf from torre.


This posses problems with non-elf races being able to be from an elven culture. I would think though that it be obvious to anyone that a human, even though they have spent a long time in the elven nations is not from there. As elven culture is so old and refine it is hard to duplicate.

these are just a few quick thoughts...


-Lothien, player of
-Gebon
-Akeedin

You growl ferociously!
H>
A mountain troll runs west.
H>
You exclaim, "Ha!"

AIM: LordLothien
scubasnack2@play.net

>>This posses problems with non-elf races being able to be from an elven culture. I would think though that it be obvious to anyone that a human, even though they have spent a long time in the elven nations is not from there. As elven culture is so old and refine it is hard to duplicate.

What Belnia said!

I would also like to throw this out there...

Let's run with the Humans from the Elven Nations example of Belnia's:

>>reply Reply
There's really a limitless number of possibilities here. I could easily imagine a group of disinherited human nobles from 2000 years ago, third and fourth children of families who never had a chance at the family goods leaving when the Turamzyrrian Empire official formed, and wandering. They wander the edges of the Empire, then south through the lower reaches of the Dragonspines and over towards Ta'Nalfein, before turning around. They could trade and barter their skills as they go, making a roughly circuitous route through the area every few years. This route would bring them in contact with humans, potentially dwarves, giantmen and elves among others.

>>Quite a bit of cultural influence, and they probably picked up bits and pieces of all their trading partners along the way, producing an amalgamated culture of their own.

The humans in the example travelled extensively, spending most of their time in the Elven Nations. Their "culture" would likely be a mishmash of human, plus whatever elven things that worked for them. It wouldn't exactly be "a human from Ta'Vaalor" but it could certainly be something more like a human influenced by Ta'Vaalor.


~ The girl behind Debia

---

Buy my stuff!
Wehnimer's Landing: www.playershops.com/Debia
Ta’Illistim: www.playershops.com/Elysiana
Ta’Illistim gems and talons: www.playershops.com/Bolissia
River's Rest: www.playershops.com/Katalinah

I think one reason for people to want more, visible culture display options is because (sorry, guys), players in general won't pick up on things without those visual cues. If a person came across a bookish human, what are the odds that it would even cross the person's mind that that human might be influenced by Illistim elves? Or that a militant halfling might have spent a lot of time in Ta'Vaalor? Slim to none. I'd put money on none.

Among the reasons I set Debia as a half-Elf when I first rolled her up was because 1. half-Elves were actually uncommon and 2. biologically, she is "mostly" Sylvan. Not half-human, half-Sylvan. MOSTLY Sylvan. But because she's mostly and not a pureblood, her appearance will seem a bit "off" to some. However, if you consider culture AND race, Debia is a mostly-Sylvan with strong Dhe'nar and Faendryl cultural influences.


~ The girl behind Debia

---

Buy my stuff!
Wehnimer's Landing: www.playershops.com/Debia
Ta’Illistim: www.playershops.com/Elysiana
Ta’Illistim gems and talons: www.playershops.com/Bolissia
River's Rest: www.playershops.com/Katalinah

What about adding a some profile tags? One that was suggested and a new one come to mind.

Influence(s): (Selecting from other races cultures)

A new one. I am not sure what would be the correct term for it but maybe "Standing". This could be used to show where one fit in the culture of his birth. Was he wealthy family? Poor? A misfit or outcast? A everyday average person? A thief? Is he wanted? Banished? Or just A nobody? There are probably 20+ other modifiers that could work. Think of the possibilities this would give people to devolop a character.

Would this be fairly easy to do using profile tags?

With regard to revealing influences, I think that's something that really should remain in the area of roleplay. I see it as part of the joy of roleplaying where you get to drop hints like that and also notice it in others.



GM Scribes

>>Same exact thing could be said about that changes in Ta'Vaalor. It could of just been handled with Rp not mechanics. It wasn't and this change would be simple you had to change all the mechanics and force people to deal with them. So if a whole towns rules can be rewritten a line could be added in a profile.

I think that's different for two main reasons. The entire job of one GM is to make Ta'Vaalor a living, breathing environment. Second, the changes were to bring the town in-line with existing documentation and not opposed to it.

= - GM Oscuro - =

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

"There's a difference between asking for a multi-race culture, which this thread began about, and asking for a line that says, "I'm Hendoran with a touch of Illistim Elfiness!"

Orginally it was for a third dark elf culture. It was said it would be too hard to rewrite documents or create a new one. Then it became a multi race culture, nothing wanted to be done so I tried to come up with a comprimise that would allow people to further devolop there characters. That was denied because of the Gm hours it would take up. To me that reads as not wanting to do anything.

"The natural evolution of this type of request would be the ability to list your character's personality quirks, present mood, and thoughts. Thus, everyone who engages with you can simply read your profile and you can just sit and do nothing other than wait for someone to respond according to how you expect them to from your profile."

How do they see your quote, Your features without being next to you and your full last name without being introduced. That is a odd place to draw a line on influences not being a possibility.

Reguardless of how you want to spin in, All your suggestions have one thing in common. They do not require any Gm to do anything at all. They all say "Go Roleplay" which is a nice way to say go pretend we did something.

It's pointless trying to talk on here. I'm done.

<<Orginally it was for a third dark elf culture. It was said it would be too hard to rewrite documents or create a new one. Then it became a multi race culture, nothing wanted to be done so I tried to come up with a comprimise that would allow people to further devolop there characters. That was denied because of the Gm hours it would take up. To me that reads as not wanting to do anything.

The Dark Elf culture thing was not nixed. The present guru of Dark Elves, Galene, noted that she did not think a third culture was necessary at this time. With that said, she opened the door for one in the future by telling players that if they really want one, to work toward establishing one. This is how the second dark elf culture came about, through player innovation and hard work. Breaking this down to simplest terms, "I don't think we need another one, but if you guys show me there's a passion and following for one, that could do the trick!"

As per the multi-race culture. This was started here by, I believe, Debia's player. So far, I have seen very little input by players toward any real suggestions. A couple have been inappropriate for what a multi-race culture would be. However, no GM has said "there will be no multi-race culture!" I'm actually pretty interested in the idea and told a fellow GM this just a few hours ago during a chat we were having. If players give up on thinking on something and developing an idea, I may well attempt to think up something on my own. I think there's a niche there that could serve a purpose and meet the needs of players.

Finally, your suggestion. Oscuro offered his opinion, which involved hours needed. I offered my opinion which I believed that it covered an area that really should simply rely on RP. I've seen a lot of talented players roleplay such things and I don't think any of that roleplay could be replaced with an extra line added to a profile.

<<How do they see your quote, Your features without being next to you and your full last name without being introduced. That is a odd place to draw a line on influences not being a possibility.

I'm sort of confused here. Could you better explain this?

<<Regardless of how you want to spin in, All your suggestions have one thing in common. They do not require any Gm to do anything at all. They all say "Go Roleplay" which is a nice way to say go pretend we did something.

One point to remember is that we GMs just don't exist in a void here. We're always actively working on something which we firmly believe will benefit players and the game. We don't sit idle. If we pick up a new project, it's at the expense of another.

Players can influence us greatly, through discussion on the forums (like right now), and through roleplaying in the game. Gemstone is a game built on roleplay, and it's one of the best tools for players to use to shape the world. The players who created the Dhe'nar did exactly this. The new MHO system allows groups to build structures in the world. Players roleplaying can affect storylines and other such things. We're not saying this won't happen, but we are saying that one way to help make it happen would be to take the idea and run with it.

<<It's pointless trying to talk on here. I'm done.

All righty.....then.


GM Scribes

I would hazard to say that there is a multi-racial culture of adventurers in the game already, even to individual regions. While it is already possible for citizenship to show a specific character's ties to a town, that is more of an (IC) official route of acknowledging it. Perhaps another way of acknowledging that would be for, say, a gnome that has spent a significant number of years in Ta'Vaalor to the point where he has adopted mannerisms of the Vaalorian culture. While this gnome certainly couldn't gain (IC) official citizenship, it seems plausible that this gnome could be identified as one that is influenced by Ta'Vaalor - or the City-States.

This could likewise be expanded to general regions. I think that regions instead of specific cities or towns (or baronies or city-states) would work best and likewise most effectively compliment the current cultural display options.

I would suggest something along the lines of:

- "from the City-States"
- "from the Empire"
- "from the far north"
- "from the mountains"
- "from the desert"
- "from the western islands"
- "from the frontier"
AND/OR:
- "from Northern Elanith"
- "from Western Elanith"
- "from Southern Elanith"
- "from Eastern Elanith"

This would provide an overlap with pre-existing cultural selections for individual races and also allow for the more adventurer-specific oddities. For example, a half-elf who might originally be born in Bourth but who has spent the past 100 years traveling around various baronies might select "from the Empire" or "from Western Elanith" as a means of acknowledging that his cultural ties are a mixture of a variety of regions. Or perhaps that gnome that has spent his entire life living among the Vaalor elves could be identified by his manner of speech or overall demeanor - and thus select "from the City-States". Someone who was born and bred in Icemule or Wehnimer's (or even outlying regions of non-accessible places on the world map) could choose "from the frontier".

And, of course, that same half-elf from Bourth mentioned above would still have the option of selecting Bourth instead of a general "the Empire" or "Western Elanith" if he so chose. This would not be an additional option but instead be displayed in the same current cultural field. These would also be options available to all races, including the newly introduced ones. I feel that 5+ years is more than enough time for them to have begun to assimilate into individual cultures.

I believe that something that is general like this could help alleviate some of the concerns about characters that are not the norm and that have spent significant amounts of time away from their originating culture to show that they have adopted different mannerisms. It is general enough to not step on the toes of the specific cultures available to individual races, but it is also flexible enough to (hopefully) foster roleplay. No, it would not address the fact that the dwarf that selects "from the City-States" can still not speak Elven, but at least it's a start.

Thoughts?

- EK

I think something like this would be better-reflected in accents. When aelotoi were first introduced, they spoke broken common; so it looks like this is already possible.

If you grew up in one culture but have since spent a lot of time living in a different town/city/region, you could reflect that by the accent you have. Or you could keep your native accent and have it be reflected when you speak common or your guild language. I would prefer for it to have a toggle for each language you speak but I think you should at least be able to toggle it on or off before you switch to a new language.

>The only problem with accents is that the SAY verb already has so much overhead. Imagine someone murmuring (not even talking!) softly to someone in Elven with a Aelotian accent. My brain just hurts thinking about having to process all of that for a single-word response like, "No."

Idea!

SoAndSo says, "Yadda yadda."

>listen SoAndSo
>SoAndSo appears to have an Illistim accent.

---
Miss Nixxi Dagon
Nymph & Dagger, incorporated
AIM: GS4 Islyia

>A heavily bundled halfling walks by, mumbling. The gist of his sentiment seems to be disapproval of the sea, sea wenches and ocean life in general.

<<As per the multi-race culture. This was started here by, I believe, Debia's player. So far, I have seen very little input by players toward any real suggestions.

Do you think we could have more than a day to catch up on posts before statements like this are thrown about? Not everyone eats, sleeps and breaths the boards. Some of us actually PLAY gemstone and don't have time to poast every 5 minutes.

Honestly, I travelled home yesterday and didn't play, last time I posted and checked the boards was Thursday very late and here it is Saturday evening and we're chastised for not giving input?

Reality check please!!

MOST GEMSTONE PLAYERS DO NOT READ THESE BOARDS.

More people should realize this, clearly.

/rant

Now give me a few minutes to eat dinner and I'll try to catch up on what's happened in the past 24 hours and post. You know, I COULD be out key-hunting!

<<Do you think we could have more than a day to catch up on posts before statements like this are thrown about? Not everyone eats, sleeps and breaths the boards. Some of us actually PLAY gemstone and don't have time to poast every 5 minutes.

First. I said so far there hasn't been a lot. I didn't say, "there wasn't."

Second, I eat, drink, and stink, Gemstone baby. :D




GM Scribes

> -- EK's post.

This. A thousand times this.

>That said, I like EK's idea, though there'd have to be a limit to whom could use what. I don't see a Dark Elf being from the western part of the Empire, or any part of the empire, period (for example). -- GM Scribes

I don't quite agree. I can very much see a dark elf living in this areas. Just because they're from that area, after all, does not mean they are welcome there.


Nick

<<I don't quite agree. I can very much see a dark elf living in this areas. Just because they're from that area, after all, does not mean they are welcome there.

Unless they're hanging out in a place like River's Rest (a backwater no one cares about), it'd be my opinion that a dark elf would be kicked out of town. The Western portion of the Empire is very much the heart of the Empire, where racism is the most prevalent and powerful. If someone squeaks by in a backwater, they're not going to be seeing much of the area around them.

Dark elves were responsible for the worst defeat in recent Imperial history, are the reason a massive wall was built along its southern border, and I'm sure, continue to hold the place of boogeyman in stories told to scare children. For the one in a million dark elf that manages to keep his or her presence hidden long enough to claim to be from that part of the Empire, I don't see rationalizing the existence of such a mechanical identifier as a cultural title. ;)




GM Scribes

<<EK's response

I think our disagreement is based on different perceptions of what constitutes culture enough to be identified in the way that the cultural title allows. I see culture has something ingrained, not something that one simply becomes knowledgeable of. A half-krolvin or a dwarf might live his entire life in Ta'Illistim, but he will never be fully accepted by elves, or allowed to learn and understand every facet of their culture. The same holds true for a dark elf in Tamzyrr, or an Aelotoi amongst half-krolvin.



GM Scribes

>>I can go to Paris, drink at a cafe and wear a beret, and laugh at a Sarkozy joke, but that doesn't make me Parisian. ;)

And after how many years of doing this would you, or other people, consider you a Parisian though?

Let us take River's Rest as an example. It is a town with a shared culture (exemplified by the citizenship verbs). The culture of River's Rest seems based on a shared set of ideals that anyone is welcome to take up, and eventually fit in with the community. River's Rest really is the multi-race cultural option, complete with cultural verbs.

A) A healthy amount of distrust for anything Imperial.
B) A healthy amount of dislike for anything Krolvin.
C) Winterberry Ale.
D) A fierce sense of independence and self reliance.
E) A willingness to bend the law, and look the other way if not completely endorse piracy and smuggling.

I know, at one point, you were planning the possibility for citizens to achieve the "River Rat" title through some means. At this point, I would say the beret-wearing foreigner sitting in a cafe had become fully adjusted and accepted into the culture. There wouldn't be a "River Rat from River's Rest" cultural title option, but anyone with some sense would link "River Rat" back to River's Rest. We know that eventually someone living in a foreign culture will acclimate and adjust themselves to it. In many cases they'll even end up partially or fully accepted into the culture.

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You search the sea griffin.
It had a wooden arrow, a wooden arrow.
It had a white gryphon's wing shell on it!