Kind of cute how it falls on me when Zyllah is the one who brought up playing longer than me, but that is the great part of being a GM, you have consumate brown-nosers to always defend you.

<<Kind of cute how it falls on me when Zyllah is the one who brought up playing longer than me, but that is the great part of being a GM, you have consumate brown-nosers to always defend you.

[snicker]. Whatever you say, buddy.

-Grendeg

How long someone has been a GM and how long someone has been playing are two different things. I think it's safe to say that the person who became a GM two days ago knows less about a lot of stuff than someone who became a GM years ago. And even that being said, anyone who throws around how long they've been around just to make a point that because they HAVE been around since GEnie or who cares when.. well, those kind of people are rather sad that they have to use their years playing rather than their skill, talent, or plain intelligence as the winning attribute.

I've met plenty of visionary people, nice people, and RIGHT people who've not played as long as plenty of other people. It doesn't make a point of view any less valid, just as playing longer doesn't make a point of view any more valid. Your points and ideas should only be judged by their logic, creativity, feasibility.. etc. Not whether you played some Dyari back in the old days and had to pay per hour.

The way it was during the ICE period is over. Pretty much nothing remains from them besides some memories and lingering, converted story lines. Whatever GMs run across that is tangible is still even destroyed and replaced with updated stuff. It has nothing to do with the current heights or the discussion at hand, besides trying to throw some imaginary weight around.

---

You spy a carved malachite crown, which looks like the heirloom that you are searching for!
>
You think to yourself, "Oh my god, I won Gemstone!"

>Let's put the measuring tape away <Emeradan>

THANK YOU, Emeradan. I was trying for awhile now (unsuccessfully) to find a way to say that which would appropriate for the forums.

---

And.. an empath has the chance to boneshatter someone. That's pretty violent.

Accidents happen to pacifists too, you know.

<<With the deICEing they should have come up with a totally different name for highman than "giantman". It was a bad name in 1995, just like laen to mein was and today still is a lousy name. Soon as I saw the new name for highman I grimaced and knew it would cause all sorts of fun debates in future years, I was not proven wrong. - Jim>>

These statements from Jim brought up an interesting issue in my mind, namely how the specific term 'giantman' is perceived by the playerbase and how said perceptions are affecting this discussion. To wit, prior to playing GS - which for reference sake I began in March of 1997 - I'd had no experience with any real role-playing game be it electronic, table-top or otherwise. This obviously includes no familiarity with Rolemaster, Shadowworld, ICE, etc. and thus no familiarity with the term 'highman' or established conceptions of the race designated 'highman/giantman.'

And herein lies my point: me being a nearly fantasy-clueless newbie at my introduction to GS, I had to visualize many things based solely on my interpretation of the game's diction. Thus, the connotation of 'giantman' was of a humanoid that strongly resembled a human in appearance with the obvious exception of being proportionally larger than the average range of human beings, meaning not only significantly taller but also bigger in terms of girth, weight, etc., giving them a stature that would be distinctly non-human.

Now on the other hand, there are the players who have been playing since the ICE-age or before. The term they were first familiar with, 'highman,' which has rather different connotations. That word implies less of a distinct racial difference between humans and giantkin than does 'giantman.' More of a race made of up pro-baskeball player-sized beings than supra-human-sized beings.

To wrap it up, I posit that the term 'highman' seems far more applicable to the height's Warden has set forth (6' to 6'5", to 7" max) than does 'giantman.' I mean, at 6'3" I'd be considered a 'giantman,' which term I and many I know would consider kind of silly as a personal descriptor of me. And considering I weigh in at 190 lbs., perhaps 'stickman' (which I have in fact been called) or 'scrawnyman' would be appropriate, but certainly not 'giantman.' In a text-based game such as GS, it is important to remember that what a word connotes is just as important (or perhaps even moreso) than what it denotes, and there lies the crux of this debate. At least that's my opinion.

Evan

"Reality continues to ruin my life." - Bill Watterson

I thought that the Highmen were a Dunedain type race. Obviously they wouldn't have superior stats to humans in all categories in the interests of game balance, but I never translasted "high man" into "large human," which is sort of what giantman translates into. But I may be completely off my rocker here.

-Grendeg

<<(only because I'm short RL. I'm compensating, heh.)>>

<grin> I think that's why my first character was on the tall side too!

I had no idea my statement about time was going to be taken the way it was. I intended it to show context and that we had a similar starting period, not as some sort of perverse "I'm better than you" measuring stick. Okay? Okay.

Zyllah

Oh boy. Well, I wondered why there was suddenly over a hundred messages in this folder. I can understand why, with the mechanics as such, why the race heights need to be defined. However, I am a little confused by the designations. It seems that nearly every race is now approximately the same height, with a couple of exceptions, and not all of the heights agree with the official documentation.

Race	Official documentation	Official height chart
Giantman	Giantmen are tall (sometimes over 7'), well built and physically strong.	6' to 6.5' max 7'
Erithian	The Erithi are slightly taller and thinner than humans, (about 5'6" to 6'6") with slightly pointed ears and almond-shaped eyes	5.5' to 6.5' max 7'
Sylvankind	They are slight and lithe, with pale complexions, sandy hair and light eyes.	5.5' to 6' max 6.5'
Elves	All Elves, though similar to mortal men, differ in a number of important ways. Tall and slender, those of pure elven blood tend to have fair to tanned skin, sandy hair and light eyes.	5.5' to 6' max 6.5'
Dark Elves	Dark elves can be distinguished by their sharper features and usually dark brown or black skin color.	5.5' to 6' max 6.5'
Humans	Humans are of average stature, between 5'5" and 6', are rather stocky and show a wide range of variation in hair, skin and eye color.	5' to 6' max 6.5'
Half-elves	They tend to look more like humans, but with slightly pointed ears and sharper facial features.	5.5' to 6' max 6.5'
Aelotoi	The Aelotoi are humanoid, standing an average of 5 to 6 feet tall. They are thin with slight bone structure. They greatly resemble humans, except their heads are slightly larger, their eyes are slightly larger.	5' to 6' max 6.5'
Half-krolvin	Half-krolvin most often wear their heritage in their bodies, an undeniable badge of identification.	5' to 5.5' max 6'
Dwarves	The hardiest of the races of Elanthia, dwarves are short (usually under 4'6"), stocky and ruddy faced.	4' to 4.5' max 4.75
Forest Gnomes	no physical description listed	3.5' to 4' max 4.25'
Halflings	Halflings are among the smallest of the civilized races in Elanthia, tending to be short and rotund.	3' to 3.25' max 3.5'
Burghal Gnomes	no physical description noted, except in the history docs where they are described as approximately 2.5' tall	3' to 3.25' max 3.5'

It seems odd that almost all of the races are grouped in the approximately 6' category ... I'd think there'd be at least a little more diversity than this. Perhaps it would be possible to give a slightly wider height range? As a suggestion, perhaps change the giantkin height range to 6.5' to 7' max 8', the elven kin (with the exception of the half-elves) to 5.5' to 6.5' max 7', and change the half-krolvin to be closer to that of humans, since the base breeding stock is usually human, with an occasional giantman thrown in, and it is to be expected that for them to be accepted into society that they'd be more likely to take after their human parent than their krolvin one. Everyone else looks about right, although possibly give the gnomes a bottom end of 2.5' so it'd read 2.5' to 3.25' max 3.5'.

Laura

<snip>
It seems that nearly every race is now approximately the same height, with a couple of exceptions, and not all of the heights agree with the official documentation. - Laura
<snip>

It was pointed out in several threads, and for several years that we need a more structured racial chart, and allow for anomolies. It helps players define their character. DR already has one. As someone mentioned - the changes to ambushing forced racial height adjustments so that it balanced across the board. Unfortunately that meant making giantmen shorter, and other races taller.

<snip>
I'll also point out that the documentation on the website, <<Giantmen are tall (sometimes over 7'), conflicts with the number's posted above (7' max) and simply adds to the confusion. -Evan
<snip>

Cruush isn't the only one to have a giantman taller than the 7 foot mark. In a discussion in the Giantman boards, it seems both Talisker and I have notes that indicate that upwards of 10 feet tall may have been plausible at one time. (Talisker's post #203) (my post #215)

Unfortunately neither of us have any cited, or hard evidence as everything post Kelfours and pre GS4 are long gone. I think it was indeed AOL days, Carabele - because I remember being upset that elves were taller than humans (coming from the D&D background at the time). (Carabele's post #214) & GMZylla's post #216)

We should all be a little more careful to not take things - especially RolePlay into absolutes. If we do, we lose out on the aspects that make our characters unique.

-Tarkisis' player