Could a GM, or a player who is knowledgeable, please let us know whether pickpocket makes use of a straight rank formula, or does it take bonus into account?
"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
LORDEVARIN
SHAFTJ
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
05/26/2011 07:32 PM CDT
Good question. When Ildran posted the factors, he said 'Pickpocketing skill' - which could go either way I think.
I have no idea which way it goes, for what that's worth....
-Keleborrn.
I have no idea which way it goes, for what that's worth....
-Keleborrn.
GS4-FINROS
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
05/27/2011 02:09 AM CDT
Pickpocketing uses a rank-based system.
LORDEVARIN
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
05/27/2011 07:52 AM CDT
Thanks, Finros. That saves me the trouble of picking up a few ranks myself.
"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
"Halflings speak Halfling & Common. They don't speak in dog whistle." - GM Thandiwe
TROPHYGAME
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
05/27/2011 11:54 AM CDT
On the topic of pickpocketing, why would it be a bad idea if pickpocketing would simply work while in hiding.
For example:
Person A hides and begins pickpocketing Person B.
Person A successfully pickpockets Person B, and because of a successful pull, is not pulled out/removed from hiding.
The above imo, is a simple and effective way to possibly change pickpocketing for the better. Why you ask? Well simple really, not only does it give you that "Unknown thief" factor, but well...Then ROGUE GAMBIT STEALTH PUT would be a bit more useful.
As it stands, I hide when I steal, and as soon as I hit "steal x" I hit my hide macro again. As I see it, it's rather silly to do so when a smart player can catch on to you EVEN if they don't ICly catch you stealing. See "Player comes from hiding with a gem in his hand, then shortly disappears".
So, why not just simply have pickpocketing not pull you from hiding on a successful pull, but instead pull you from hiding on fumbles, traps fails etc.
Let's go back to the above example...
Person A steals from Person B, however is unsuccessful in his attempt and while rifling through the bag makes too much noise to go unnoticed. Person A is then "pulled" from his hiding spot, because of said noise and is then, casted upon by a spell so smiting, it would make his bones rattle thru years to come!
The same failure options above can also clearly work with setting off thief traps and so forth.
"You turn your head quickly to the sound of Person A cursing himself as you catch him searching thru your sack, a small spot of blood is seen on his fingertips."
Then of course, Person A would be puled from hiding, allowing any retaliation.
The way I see it, is pickpocketing should be like the following:
Person A steals from Person B.
If steal = success, person A stays hidden
If steal /= success, person A is puled from hiding and suffers X penalty from being caught/trapped.
So, why is it not like this to begin with? It not only would give thieves that whole mindset of knowing, no one exactly knows who is stealing from them since well, you remain hidden on succes. But still allows those caught to be seen.
Not to mention, it opens up the door some more for RP. Imagine, 3 Rogues seen when searching from hiding, yet still you aren't sure which is the thief because of it. And also, it gives us rogues more reason to use some of our gambit guild skills, like silent put which only works in hiding, similar to vanish but still..
~Jukes, Xunlari selshis of the Kalahaya
AIM: Tehir Xunlari
For example:
Person A hides and begins pickpocketing Person B.
Person A successfully pickpockets Person B, and because of a successful pull, is not pulled out/removed from hiding.
The above imo, is a simple and effective way to possibly change pickpocketing for the better. Why you ask? Well simple really, not only does it give you that "Unknown thief" factor, but well...Then ROGUE GAMBIT STEALTH PUT would be a bit more useful.
As it stands, I hide when I steal, and as soon as I hit "steal x" I hit my hide macro again. As I see it, it's rather silly to do so when a smart player can catch on to you EVEN if they don't ICly catch you stealing. See "Player comes from hiding with a gem in his hand, then shortly disappears".
So, why not just simply have pickpocketing not pull you from hiding on a successful pull, but instead pull you from hiding on fumbles, traps fails etc.
Let's go back to the above example...
Person A steals from Person B, however is unsuccessful in his attempt and while rifling through the bag makes too much noise to go unnoticed. Person A is then "pulled" from his hiding spot, because of said noise and is then, casted upon by a spell so smiting, it would make his bones rattle thru years to come!
The same failure options above can also clearly work with setting off thief traps and so forth.
"You turn your head quickly to the sound of Person A cursing himself as you catch him searching thru your sack, a small spot of blood is seen on his fingertips."
Then of course, Person A would be puled from hiding, allowing any retaliation.
The way I see it, is pickpocketing should be like the following:
Person A steals from Person B.
If steal = success, person A stays hidden
If steal /= success, person A is puled from hiding and suffers X penalty from being caught/trapped.
So, why is it not like this to begin with? It not only would give thieves that whole mindset of knowing, no one exactly knows who is stealing from them since well, you remain hidden on succes. But still allows those caught to be seen.
Not to mention, it opens up the door some more for RP. Imagine, 3 Rogues seen when searching from hiding, yet still you aren't sure which is the thief because of it. And also, it gives us rogues more reason to use some of our gambit guild skills, like silent put which only works in hiding, similar to vanish but still..
~Jukes, Xunlari selshis of the Kalahaya
AIM: Tehir Xunlari
SCRAPPERK
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
05/28/2011 09:48 AM CDT
Everyone keeps putting forth the argument of how pickpocketing creates roleplaying oppurtunity.
Fact is, it does not.
The only time any rogue wants to roleplay the thief is when they are successful, or abusing the mechanic against a lower level target who cannot harm them. We do have several thieves who are proud of it and make themselves known as pickpockets over the net. Those same, when caught run away. I see a pickpocket in someone elses bag, and I reach over and slap them across the head. Before I can even type out 'Hey give that back.'. They have ran off.
I actually reach out and grab a thief by the wrist when I catch them in my own pocket and they run away. There should be a standard 3-5 second RT for both parties when the wrist grabbing occurs. Maybe even longer, depending on the skill level of the thief.
Every failed/botched/seen occurance should incur RT IMO. Maybe just this small addition would create that RP everyone talks about. The cross against that is obviously for those thieves who will say the target didn't RP, they just cast/swing and had time to prepare to retaliate while in RT. To that I would label as inherant risk when you stuck your hand in their pocket to begin with.
Once we initiate a CvC/PvP flag, the thief could only be successful against those who were open to fighting with characters/players. As we all know that pickpocketing is an aggressive/attack utility.
Fact is, it does not.
The only time any rogue wants to roleplay the thief is when they are successful, or abusing the mechanic against a lower level target who cannot harm them. We do have several thieves who are proud of it and make themselves known as pickpockets over the net. Those same, when caught run away. I see a pickpocket in someone elses bag, and I reach over and slap them across the head. Before I can even type out 'Hey give that back.'. They have ran off.
I actually reach out and grab a thief by the wrist when I catch them in my own pocket and they run away. There should be a standard 3-5 second RT for both parties when the wrist grabbing occurs. Maybe even longer, depending on the skill level of the thief.
Every failed/botched/seen occurance should incur RT IMO. Maybe just this small addition would create that RP everyone talks about. The cross against that is obviously for those thieves who will say the target didn't RP, they just cast/swing and had time to prepare to retaliate while in RT. To that I would label as inherant risk when you stuck your hand in their pocket to begin with.
Once we initiate a CvC/PvP flag, the thief could only be successful against those who were open to fighting with characters/players. As we all know that pickpocketing is an aggressive/attack utility.
CABALLARIUS69
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
05/28/2011 11:40 AM CDT
>>>Everyone keeps putting forth the argument of how pickpocketing creates roleplaying oppurtunity. Fact is, it does not .. [EDIT] .. As we all know that pickpocketing is an aggressive/attack utility. ~SCRAPPERK
Facts that are based on your opinion and I disagree with your last statement. Not everyone uses the skill because they're looking for freebie stuff.
I've had some nice interaction when busted. Utilizing the female flirt factor (FFF), dudes really dug her interplay when her hand was busted in their ... stuff. I never cared for the, "I'm poor and need to steal from you" ploy.
As stated time and again, we can make all the silvers we want hunting, stealing is not profitable in comparison, so I utilized the skill for interaction, not profit. Repeatedly stealing from the same person or without a crowd allowed for a better chance of getting caught and my intended interaction could occur.
It's the players that get so offended who think a gem/few silvers is worth a hissy fit that made my intended interaction a bad idea. Because of my that, I rarely shoot for interaction that way anymore. People just take it way to personally in this game environment.
On the other hand, some people want to roleplay a thief on the opposite spectrum as myself and utilize the skill for that. They want you pissed off and red in the face and coming after them with a vendetta. Even negative reactions are roleplay for some.
As per your examples of those yellow bellies that run off when caught, us old school thieves definately frown at the ones that do that. But as you know, we (old school rogues) can't control anyones roleplay. We can't make them stay and take their lumps or learn how to try and smooth talk their way out of it.
But my point was simple, there are those of us that use(d) the skill for roleplay opportunities. Yeah, we know, we're rare.
~Lori aka Horsefreak (One of the Many)
Facts that are based on your opinion and I disagree with your last statement. Not everyone uses the skill because they're looking for freebie stuff.
I've had some nice interaction when busted. Utilizing the female flirt factor (FFF), dudes really dug her interplay when her hand was busted in their ... stuff. I never cared for the, "I'm poor and need to steal from you" ploy.
As stated time and again, we can make all the silvers we want hunting, stealing is not profitable in comparison, so I utilized the skill for interaction, not profit. Repeatedly stealing from the same person or without a crowd allowed for a better chance of getting caught and my intended interaction could occur.
It's the players that get so offended who think a gem/few silvers is worth a hissy fit that made my intended interaction a bad idea. Because of my that, I rarely shoot for interaction that way anymore. People just take it way to personally in this game environment.
On the other hand, some people want to roleplay a thief on the opposite spectrum as myself and utilize the skill for that. They want you pissed off and red in the face and coming after them with a vendetta. Even negative reactions are roleplay for some.
As per your examples of those yellow bellies that run off when caught, us old school thieves definately frown at the ones that do that. But as you know, we (old school rogues) can't control anyones roleplay. We can't make them stay and take their lumps or learn how to try and smooth talk their way out of it.
But my point was simple, there are those of us that use(d) the skill for roleplay opportunities. Yeah, we know, we're rare.
~Lori aka Horsefreak (One of the Many)
WAERLOGA
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/18/2011 12:54 AM CDT
My apologies, I havent checked these boards in a while. I will reply accordingly.
>The only time any rogue wants to roleplay the thief is when they are successful, or abusing the mechanic against a lower level target who cannot harm them. We do have several thieves who are proud of it and make themselves known as pickpockets over the net. Those same, when caught run away. I see a pickpocket in someone elses bag, and I reach over and slap them across the head. Before I can even type out 'Hey give that back.'. They have ran off. - SCRAPPERK
That really couldn't be a more uneducated statement. If you're going to lay that heavy of a stereotype down I will correctly counter by using this stereotype, "The people who post against pickpocketing, on the pickpocketing boards are the very same people ignorant enough to have been burned by the skill".
Mark/Leash
>The only time any rogue wants to roleplay the thief is when they are successful, or abusing the mechanic against a lower level target who cannot harm them. We do have several thieves who are proud of it and make themselves known as pickpockets over the net. Those same, when caught run away. I see a pickpocket in someone elses bag, and I reach over and slap them across the head. Before I can even type out 'Hey give that back.'. They have ran off. - SCRAPPERK
That really couldn't be a more uneducated statement. If you're going to lay that heavy of a stereotype down I will correctly counter by using this stereotype, "The people who post against pickpocketing, on the pickpocketing boards are the very same people ignorant enough to have been burned by the skill".
Mark/Leash
SCRAPPERK
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/19/2011 03:08 PM CDT
Hardly uneducated. Highly observant.
I protect myself against petty thieves, common riff-raff, trash. My character's see people stolen from and I see those that attempt to steal from my characters all the time. There is no roleplay surrounding the act. They attempt to steal and run away. The somewhat amusing one, ONE, will hide at a table and attempt to roleplay on the net, but when caught with their hand in a pocket, still runs away.
There is no roleplay in the skill, prove it wrong. Uber skill carrying characters target those who cannot outright attack them in retaliation, simple fact.
Attach some round time to the act itself. Force the petty thief to be bound to the spot for at least as long as it takes to type 'Hey give me that back!', or 'Attack Thief', then we can all roleplay thief and victim.
Until such a measure is taken, the weak and uneducated will be stolen from, and the experienced will continue to believe the skill is useless.
~
If you wish to dismiss this murder charge, use ACCUSE DISMISS Drangell.
I protect myself against petty thieves, common riff-raff, trash. My character's see people stolen from and I see those that attempt to steal from my characters all the time. There is no roleplay surrounding the act. They attempt to steal and run away. The somewhat amusing one, ONE, will hide at a table and attempt to roleplay on the net, but when caught with their hand in a pocket, still runs away.
There is no roleplay in the skill, prove it wrong. Uber skill carrying characters target those who cannot outright attack them in retaliation, simple fact.
Attach some round time to the act itself. Force the petty thief to be bound to the spot for at least as long as it takes to type 'Hey give me that back!', or 'Attack Thief', then we can all roleplay thief and victim.
Until such a measure is taken, the weak and uneducated will be stolen from, and the experienced will continue to believe the skill is useless.
~
If you wish to dismiss this murder charge, use ACCUSE DISMISS Drangell.
JASONSTC
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/19/2011 05:24 PM CDT
Thief player characters really need NPCs to steal from and other theft-related opportunities that don't require targeting other player characters. Thieves would enjoy more use of the skill, and other player characters would enjoy being targeted less often.
Farn & Co.
Email: play.net address
AIM: LastMinutePrayer
Farn & Co.
Email: play.net address
AIM: LastMinutePrayer
TROPHYGAME
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/19/2011 05:26 PM CDT
Few things I'll add:
1) Uber skill carrying characters steal from everyone, least the good ones. I've stolen from ample people above me in EXP for sure, so your basis is not a fact yet simply another opinion.
2) There is ample roleplay in the skill itself and plenty of chances for it, the thing least around however, is well roleplayed thieves. And to me, Klepta is a fine example of a horribly roleplayed one, as an opinion.
3) Stealing has no roundtime yes, but there IS a cooldown period. If you want a thief to suffer RT, best learn to make friends with a Sorcerer and get gems cursed. There is your roundtime.
Based on your statements, I'm not so sure how you can say you are hardly uneducated, when you really have shown no factual arguments to back up your "facts".
That and it's evident you don't even realize how to trap a thief, RT or not.
All in all, there are well roleplayed thieves out there. You just may not know of all of them, since you quite possibly don't even see them stealing. Just a thought.
I can't speak for every thief, but I can assure you I roleplay it all out, if and when I ever get caught...Nor do I at all steal and immediately run. I steal flat out, in the open when I am stealing.
www.tehir.net
AIM: Tehir Xunlari
1) Uber skill carrying characters steal from everyone, least the good ones. I've stolen from ample people above me in EXP for sure, so your basis is not a fact yet simply another opinion.
2) There is ample roleplay in the skill itself and plenty of chances for it, the thing least around however, is well roleplayed thieves. And to me, Klepta is a fine example of a horribly roleplayed one, as an opinion.
3) Stealing has no roundtime yes, but there IS a cooldown period. If you want a thief to suffer RT, best learn to make friends with a Sorcerer and get gems cursed. There is your roundtime.
Based on your statements, I'm not so sure how you can say you are hardly uneducated, when you really have shown no factual arguments to back up your "facts".
That and it's evident you don't even realize how to trap a thief, RT or not.
All in all, there are well roleplayed thieves out there. You just may not know of all of them, since you quite possibly don't even see them stealing. Just a thought.
I can't speak for every thief, but I can assure you I roleplay it all out, if and when I ever get caught...Nor do I at all steal and immediately run. I steal flat out, in the open when I am stealing.
www.tehir.net
AIM: Tehir Xunlari
MAYNIST
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/20/2011 07:05 PM CDT
If you want to trap a thief, especially a fairly unskilled one, may I recommend an armed jaws trap.
Maynist
Maynist
CABALLARIUS69
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/22/2011 07:36 AM CDT
>>>If you want to trap a thief, especially a fairly unskilled one, may I recommend an armed jaws trap. ~Maynist
A sprung jaw trap would give them what they're looking for, but since they could just close any given container, I suspect that it's more about venting their dislikes of lame (pull and run) thieves.
I agree with that aspect. Through the years, there have been a lot of jerks that play(ed) this game.
~Lori, NottaTeef
P.S. In case I forget to close them, I have jaws and needles in my containers.
A sprung jaw trap would give them what they're looking for, but since they could just close any given container, I suspect that it's more about venting their dislikes of lame (pull and run) thieves.
I agree with that aspect. Through the years, there have been a lot of jerks that play(ed) this game.
~Lori, NottaTeef
P.S. In case I forget to close them, I have jaws and needles in my containers.
LORDEVARIN
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/22/2011 07:58 AM CDT
The best way to get back at thieves, short of training just like them to catch/accuse, is to simply cast sanctuary whenever you are in a crowded room. This shuts down the opportunity for thieving across the board on the rare times that enough are gathered in a room to provide a significant bonus. That being said, this mechanic needs dev, and badly, but that's all been said before.
MAYNIST
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/24/2011 11:28 PM CDT
I wish scarabs were available for purchase. You arm them and then put them in your container, waiting for the next pickpocket.
Of course if YOU touch (not disarm) it while its in your container...
Maynist
Of course if YOU touch (not disarm) it while its in your container...
Maynist
LORDEVARIN
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/25/2011 12:37 PM CDT
That would likely get you charged for murder should the thief die, unfortunately. Scarab-like traps that don't kill, but rather disable for a lengthy period of time would be nice, though.
SHAFTJ
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/26/2011 07:38 AM CDT
I think we could all agree that that shouldn't be a murder charge.
If they're off the shelf and infinite though, I (and probably a few other rogues) would appreciate it if they weren't as good as LFM generated thief traps.
-Keleborrn.
If they're off the shelf and infinite though, I (and probably a few other rogues) would appreciate it if they weren't as good as LFM generated thief traps.
-Keleborrn.
MAYNIST
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/27/2011 03:25 PM CDT
I see the scarab idea as something like this:
Scarabs are expensive. You want a really good theft deterrent, you pay for it. Only the rogue guild would sell them, so no doubt the price would inflate considerably for non-rogues. Another approach would be to have them appear as semi-rare random treasure.
20 ranks of disarm skill would be required to arm successfully (less than that you will likely trigger the scarab). However non-rogues have a chance of setting the scarab off regardless of disarm skill (so arming scarabs becomes a service that rogues would provide).
Once you arm and put it in your container, its armed. No going back.
If you touch it yourself after putting it in your container, you set it off. Being dumb is punishable.
These scarabs would be somewhat less deadly than the ones you find on locked containers. Its not that the thief couldn't die (although that should be possible), but the primary point is to provide a theft deterrent, not to kill pickpockets. Limb loss would be a risk, however.
It should be nearly impossible to set off a scarab and not have everyone on the room notice.
The level of the armer versus the level of the thief should be a factor (but not the only factor).
Just because a thief puts his hand in a container doesn't mean he would touch the scarab. He could acquire something else successfully.
Town law is not involved. This also means that if a pickpocket sets off a scarab, than the appropriate punishment has been given. If you attack a pickpocket for attempting to steal from you after he sets off a scarab, town law is now involved (IE you can be ACCUSEd).
Think of scarabs as another form of jaws trap (with a slight death possibility), just in different flavors.
These scarabs would have no more than 50% of their rogue guild shop price value in gemshops.
Input appreciated. These thoughts are more or less off the cuff, I haven't given this extensive thought.
Maynist
Scarabs are expensive. You want a really good theft deterrent, you pay for it. Only the rogue guild would sell them, so no doubt the price would inflate considerably for non-rogues. Another approach would be to have them appear as semi-rare random treasure.
20 ranks of disarm skill would be required to arm successfully (less than that you will likely trigger the scarab). However non-rogues have a chance of setting the scarab off regardless of disarm skill (so arming scarabs becomes a service that rogues would provide).
Once you arm and put it in your container, its armed. No going back.
If you touch it yourself after putting it in your container, you set it off. Being dumb is punishable.
These scarabs would be somewhat less deadly than the ones you find on locked containers. Its not that the thief couldn't die (although that should be possible), but the primary point is to provide a theft deterrent, not to kill pickpockets. Limb loss would be a risk, however.
It should be nearly impossible to set off a scarab and not have everyone on the room notice.
The level of the armer versus the level of the thief should be a factor (but not the only factor).
Just because a thief puts his hand in a container doesn't mean he would touch the scarab. He could acquire something else successfully.
Town law is not involved. This also means that if a pickpocket sets off a scarab, than the appropriate punishment has been given. If you attack a pickpocket for attempting to steal from you after he sets off a scarab, town law is now involved (IE you can be ACCUSEd).
Think of scarabs as another form of jaws trap (with a slight death possibility), just in different flavors.
These scarabs would have no more than 50% of their rogue guild shop price value in gemshops.
Input appreciated. These thoughts are more or less off the cuff, I haven't given this extensive thought.
Maynist
CABALLARIUS69
Re: Pickpocketing: Ranks or Bonus
06/28/2011 05:33 PM CDT
>>>Scarabs are expensive. You want a really good theft deterrent, you pay for it. Only the rogue guild would sell them, so no doubt the price would inflate considerably for non-rogues. Another approach would be to have them appear as semi-rare random treasure. ~Maynist
Oblivian Quartz and Doomstones from the Rift. Both are costly gems, if you use them as thief bait, but great for affect.
~Lori aka Horsefreak (One of the Many)
Oblivian Quartz and Doomstones from the Rift. Both are costly gems, if you use them as thief bait, but great for affect.
~Lori aka Horsefreak (One of the Many)
