I've been thinking about the creation story in the official history (involving the One, the Many, the Grey, etc.) and have a few questions:

1. Is there any lore about this whatsoever in-game? I don't recall ever seeing anything in-game that mentions these beings or has any connection to them. Since they are apparently mentioned in this document in the Libraries of Illistim (per the official history), I find that a bit odd, so I'm wondering whether or not I'm just unaware of something.

2. Do the Arkati believe in, acknowledge, perhaps even revere, or in any other way relate to these beings?

3. This one's a bit more specific: Scribes' document describing worship in the Turamzzyrian Empire has the author saying that it is "blasphemy to proclaim that neither the gods of Liabo or Lornon are divine, but merely powerful beings." No mention of the Drakes is made in the document, either. So, I'm curious whether the "official" religion of the Turamzzyrian Empire even acknowledges that the Arkati were once subordinate to the Drakes. I'm assuming there's a different creation myth/early history of some kind there? Does anyone know any details about this?

Thanks!

The first time I read the Silmarillion I was lost wondering what the heck I had picked up. Then the second time I read it I understood what he was doing and enjoyed it, but it wasn't until the third reading that I really liked it. It could of course have something to do with how young I was when I first picked it up. ;) Despite my tender age at the time, I was a massive Tolkien fan so I was determined to know every bit of lore there was to know of Middle Earth.

<Did someone play the Summon Scribes card?

That was (part of) my intent! I'm glad it worked. :)

<The author of the document is a priest of Koar, who definitely attributes Koar as the most powerful deity. Likewise, in his mind it's only elvish foolishness to not see the Arkati as gods (as opposed to powerful patron beings), so it's a straight up difference of opinion amongst races on that regard. Knowledge of the Drakes, likewise, is probably not something your average everyday Turamzzyrian possesses, either. At best, they know that there may have been other gods, but they're dead and gone now. Think of it kind of like the Greek pantheon, you have your Greek gods, but they did have predecessors, but they're not really relevant or worshiped (Boo Titans!). They might know them in regards to the Arkati protecting humans during the Drake-Daemon War and rebuilding the world after it's conclusion. But again, no one prays or honors a god they believe to be dead.

I see. Putting it in term of the Greek pantheon is a pretty helpful way of looking at it, so thanks!

<Concerning your first question (I think I'm answering these in reverse), I'm not one hundred percent sure, but there's probably at least an in-game book that has the story written down in one or more of the libraries in-game.

This is precisely the sort of thing I'm wondering about. Looks like I've got a search ahead of me... And (responding to all of the replies now) it looks like I might have to read the Silmarillion!

P.S. Scribes, your documents on worship in the empire and the history of the Order of Voln are two really excellent documents. I think I've read them both more than a few times!

I don't think the story of the one and the other was ever meant to be taken as canon, more like Greganth's player, said as a story. My character Grhim takes it even a step further, he doubts that the Drakes ever existed. Leaning toward facts such as the fact that written language was VERY new during the supposed ur-daemon VS drake superwar, perhaps only decades old when the war broke out(written documentation of it wouldn't be up to today's standards).

The Arkati have been in place for more than 50,000 years and I just don't see the modern people of Elanthia taking stories from 50,000 years ago seriously. Would you believe the same thing as a caveman simply because he wrote something down?

Interesting thoughts. When you guys say that it wasn't "meant to be taken as canon" or that "no official docs seem to support it," though, what exactly do you mean? As far as I've understood it, documents posted on the website (particularly with names like "official history") are _ipso facto_ official docs and constitute canon. Now, if what you mean is just that the story may not be common belief among our characters, and/or isn't something that our characters have to believe or know about, and/or is something that our characters can just regard as one myth among others, that seems perfectly correct.

<The Arkati have been in place for more than 50,000 years and I just don't see the modern people of Elanthia taking stories from 50,000 years ago seriously. Would you believe the same thing as a caveman simply because he wrote something down?

I probably wouldn't, but our characters might believe various different things for various reasons. My questions here have less to do with what our characters might happen to believe and more to do with the lore that forms the backdrop for that potential (and with how much of it is actually available in-game). I will say, though, that there seem to be some potentially significant disanalogies between Elanthian stories from 50000 years ago and 50000-year-old stories from cavemen in the real world. For example, 50000 years might be a lot less for elves who live 1500+ years than it might be for us! Depending on how a generation is measured, that might only be about 50 or so elven generations -- the equivalent of about 1500-2000 years ago, generation-wise, for us human beings (going by the fairly typical idea that a human "generation" is about 30-40 years). And there's also the fact that, in Elanthia, some people may have actually talked to beings (the Arkati) who were around 50000 years ago, too. Etc., etc. :)

For my own part, I consider the document to be a simple creation myth. It's the creation of an ideology, not that our world of Elanth was 'actually' created in this fashion. More of a suggestion that deeper thinkers may take into consideration, one of many possible scenario's present by deep thinkers on how things came to be 'in the beginning'.

We know that Drakes , Ur-Daemon, and Arkati exist. We have no tangible reference that indicates The One, The Many, The Others and The Grey exist, other than they being representative of ideals. I don't know if that clarifies anything, but it's meant to say that, no this is not actually how the world was created, but for those you who have that question, here is an old caveman drawing on the wall that -might- be the answer you seek.



~Mychar wonders why he cannot leap over the railings onto invaders with his stiletto.

~Because you are Greganth, not Batman.

<I might also note, that for me, as a player... The release of this document, addendum, was a big turning point in the view of Arkati's in the eyes of players and characters. I felt the first time I read it that religion had taken a blow to the head. This was later driven home with the addition of The Dhe'nar'i Doctrines which for the serious theologist, would make it difficult to worship any Arkati as a god, given the new, philosophies.

<Having never played a true zealot before anyway, it never really bothered me that the Arkati were not really gods, but rather moved it to the front of my mind of what the one true power in Elanthia has always been. I would be interested to know how one finds motivation to successfully play the zealot for their god, when the official word is that they have been relegated from god status, to uber powerful being.

<I know I could never pull it off now, as fuel for the argument against godliness is so readily available.

I can sympathize. Thoughts like these are partly what led me to ask these questions, particularly my 3rd question about the religious beliefs of the Turamzzyrian Empire. I was imagining a cleric worshiping some Arkati as truly divine and then being confronted with various parts of the lore mentioned in the official history and the deity documents (not all of it involving the One, the Many, the Grey, etc., by the way) -- e.g., "Um... You know that the Arkati used to be servants to more powerful beings, right? That they only came into existence at specific points in creation? That they fled to the moons when the Ur-Daemon came, and that some of them died? Heck, the remaining Arkati won't even talk to Gosaena (except for Jastev) because she knows they're all gonna die at some point. How stupid do you have to be to think they're truly divine, at that point?"

Still, there are ways to RP it out. It's just a bit harder -- assuming you don't want to RP a cleric who is intentionally ignorant -- if there is actually in-game lore supporting these stories (hence the other questions I asked about whether this stuff exists in-game). Scribes' suggestion to think of the Arkati as in some ways analogous to the Greek gods might help in this respect. The Greek gods were worshiped and regarded as divine (maybe in a different sense of "divine" than the one we're most used to hearing today) even though they were born, had various limitations, and so on.

<<Scribes I have to disagree with you, we're talking a minimum of 40 generations, and people becoming civilized. We're also talking about wild elves that hadn't even taken to cities who would be the ones recollecting the war. These are not reliable stories, and in current day Elanthia the Arkati are as gods. Also no mortal being has ever heard them mention the Drakes IC from an Arkati, and I think it would be considered insolent to mention them in the presence of the Arkati and would likely result in death. The path of a zealot is to look on such information as unreliable, because really it is not in-character reliable.

You know, I wrote it with the old age spans in mind for elves, when I think 5,000 years was the max (I think!), so 40 generations is a lot rougher passage of time. Though, not impossible, just look at the documents from the time of the Roman Empire that still survive. The elves weren't living in the cities, but I do think there might have been survivors whose lifespans crossed into those who might have recorded...or not too far away from when someone said, "Hey, let's write this down!"

<<Canon of Documents

If someone is published to the website, it's canon, but at the same time, it has to be construed with the idea of who wrote it and what that means for the accuracy of the information within. The Worship in the Empire is a prime example where there is a bias toward Liabo and Koar, specifically.

<<Gods

The majority of humans believe the Arkati are gods, not just powerful beings, but gods who are worth praying to in hopes of having prayers answered. Faith is the answer to rely upon to be a zealot, faith can transcend what others might believe iron bound fact, no? :D

GM Scribes

<Scribes I have to disagree with you, we're talking a minimum of 40 generations, and people becoming civilized. We're also talking about wild elves that hadn't even taken to cities who would be the ones recollecting the war. These are not reliable stories, and in current day Elanthia the Arkati are as gods. Also no mortal being has ever heard them mention the Drakes IC from an Arkati, and I think it would be considered insolent to mention them in the presence of the Arkati and would likely result in death. The path of a zealot is to look on such information as unreliable, because really it is not in-character reliable.

Interesting points. These are the sorts of things I'm wondering about. Have the Arkati ever acknowledge the existence of Drakes or Ur-Daemons in the game?

As for the rest, I don't think it's right to think of the early elves as so wild and uncivilized that they are akin to cavemen (the analogy used earlier). They did have to live mostly in hiding, and not in cities, that's true, and they certainly hadn't developed much in the way of technology or empire. But, from what I can gather, they -- or at least some of them -- were still quite intelligent, and learned enough to even be considered "scholars" at that time. For example, if you look at the document, "Elven Dogma and Theology" (on the play.net website), there is mention of "Elven theologians" and shamans, and Yadzari Illistim is referred to as a "scholar." This is all right around the time of the Ur-Daemon War, way before the time of the Elven Empire. So, it's not as though the elves at that time were brutes -- there were scholars and theologians among them even then. And they apparently found the dead body of an Arkati, which most of them (except Yadzari Illistim) believed to be gods at the time -- something that probably left a lasting imprint on the Elven psyche.

Beyond this, I think there is some IC indication that Arkati are not gods, in that there is some IC indication that some of them have died. For example, you have the erased/scratched out/broken murals in the Ancient Passage in Zul Logoth, situated right next to the un-erased murals of the Arkati whom we know to still be around -- an odd coincidence, that, if it actually signifies nothing. There's also the fact that part of the Elven view about at least one of the Arkati -- L'Naere, whom they believed to have been punished by execution by the Drakes -- was corroborated IC when the Aelotoi appeared. That is, the Illistim scholars apparently had this legend that there was an Arkati named L'Naere who had begun moving pants, animals, and lesser races to another planet, but was caught by the drakes and eventually punished with death. Then the Aelotoi showed up, talking about L'Naere, saying that they had been moved by her to another planet, and that she had subsequently disappeared. Again, some very odd coincidences if the stories aren't true. What's more, the story of L'Naere (according to the document about it) was passed down by Illistim scholars from the time of the Ur-Daemon war, and it turned out to be correct, so that's some slight evidence that the early elves were pretty reliable about the information they passed on. :)

Your post does open up some interesting possibilities for RPing the zealot, though.

Then there is very valid argument that Koar, and quite possible Charl are Drakes themselves.

Gowain gave a lecture on Koar to an old respected order back in GS III in which he made a strong argument for Koar being a Drake, I have a link here to what he had to say.

http://web.archive.org/web/20011125183624/http://www.1freespace.com/gowain/highlord.htm



~Mychar wonders why he cannot leap over the railings onto invaders with his stiletto.

~Because you are Greganth, not Batman.

this may be a good time to remind folks of Eorgina's last words before she left for the moon. Clunk was ... uhmm ... doing his part to ensure nothing untoward happened in the tunnels of Zul Logoth at the time, so had followed a pack of Eorgina worshippers to l'Aerion when it was discovered. The discover was NOT an accident, but a deliberate act on the part of Eorgina to turn over care of here place to her followers. (Clunks favored Arkati is Eonak, evryone knows that? right?)

Others that can can verify her last words are:
Traiva, Kasia, Grikok, Frorin, Eugenides, Lord Arianiss, Lord Rekarth, Linsha, Lord Dalboz, Halimeda, Ceyrin, Consul Strydyr, Marclar, Orthir, Lady Foxs, Tehrror, Piren, Arealle, High Lady Maetriks, High Lord Demyse, Queen Eorgina.

>Eorgina says, "Remember this..."
>Eorgina says, "I rule not the night, but the blackness of it."
>Eorgina says, "Not the ending of the day, but the reason for its end."
>Eorgina says, "Without night, day is nothing."
>Eorgina says, "Without Dark, light is nothing."
>Eorgina says, "And without light, darkness still persists... darker than ever."





This occured just prior to winter solstice, about three years back ...


Clunk

(Buy your swords at CBD weapons in Zul Logoth.)

>Knowledge of the Drakes, likewise, is probably not something your average everyday Turamzzyrian possesses, either. At best, they know that there may have been other gods, but they're dead and gone now. Think of it kind of like the Greek pantheon, you have your Greek gods, but they did have predecessors, but they're not really relevant or worshiped (Boo Titans!).

My laptop was named Titan until I had to reinstall the OS a few weeks ago. I renamed it Titanium, but maybe Zeus would have been more fitting. But come on, who do you think the devil is, anyway. The Christians threw Pan into hell...

And yes it's no surprise that the early parts of the Silmarillion echos Genesis. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and even converted C. S. Lewis from atheism to become a Christian (sadly to him, the Church of England). Though, as much as I love Tolkien, I can't say he's had quite that profound effect on my personal world view. Just you know, all his fantasy ideas.

---

>(OOC) Rozy's player whispers to the group, "Spiiiiiderhalfling!"

>Out of no where, a ki-lin gallops in.

>>Heck, the remaining Arkati won't even talk to Gosaena (except for Jastev) because she knows they're all gonna die at some point. How stupid do you have to be to think they're truly divine, at that point?"

Lots of real world religions had gods that died. People may not have continued to worship that specific god, but they didn't stop worshiping that pantheon.


>>Have the Arkati ever acknowledge the existence of Drakes or Ur-Daemons in the game?

Isn't it part of Kai's story that he fought in the war against the Ur-daemons (or was it against the drakes in the Drake war)? So if part of the story of who they are is that they fought against a particular foe in a particular war, then that would seem to indicate that at least people would have an idea that such an event happened, even if the event itself is so far back in history/legend that almost no detail survives. So anyone who worships Kai would know at the very least that he fought a powerful foe that could pose a threat to the Arkati and that Kai was a badass in that war.

>>That would make a really neat storyline

+1

Exploring lore by race would be good too -- there's a reason those grey elves don't get so confused, ya know? Not so much the high elves. Primary race requirement for high elves is confusion. (Now, don't go spoiling it, Robert.)

Doug