Here is my level 38 brawling rogue hunting the glacier, i.e. like level foes. Ordinarily she'd use a sai and shield (for better DS ... she has no TWC training), but UAC with both hands open works well also. She has 4x hand and foot wraps and wears 4x brigandine armor. Don't have your monks try this, you will hurt yourselves.

She is, of course, attacking from hiding. No set up jabs are needed, no feints or other ancillary actions, no problem using relatively heavy armor ... just sheer forceful violence of a kick strike. The only reason she needs two strikes is that she has to take out the giant-sized foe's legs out first in order to hit the head/neck. The point is, and I have said this before, ambushing rogues and rangers shouldn't be better at using UAC combat than the profession that was specifically designed to use this system.
>>e
[Glatoph, Glacier]
Vaguely, you can make out the shadow of a large snowy hill off to the southwest. To the east, the nebulous shapes of smaller mounds can be seen, although peering through the harsh flurries makes your eyes smart and water. You also see a frost giant, a handaxe and a reinforced shield.
Obvious paths: northeast, south, west
>hide
A frost giant snatches up a reinforced shield!
A frost giant swings a war hammer at you!
You evade the attack by inches!
>
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>stance off
You are now in an offensive stance.
H>kick giant left leg
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to kick a frost giant!
You have good positioning against a frost giant.
UAF: 252 vs UDF: 222 = 1.135 * MM: 96 + d100: 80 = 188
... and hit for 70 points of damage!
Low axe kick drives into side of left knee, shattering the joint!
The frost giant is knocked to the ground!
The frost giant is stunned!
The frost giant starts to favor his wounded leg!
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>
A frost giant throws his head back and howls, shaking off the stun!
>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>
HR>kick giant head
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to kick a frost giant!
You have excellent positioning against a frost giant.
UAF: 252 vs UDF: 217 = 1.161 * MM: 103 + d100: 15 = 134
... and hit for 76 points of damage!
Flying roundhouse lands severe blow to the head! Brain begins to ooze out through the ears!
The frost giant cries out in cold agony one last time and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a frost giant.
The light blue glow leaves a frost giant.
The powerful look leaves a frost giant.
Roundtime: 6 sec.<<

I want my monk to be able to do this from the open! I want her UAC to look like she's in a Bruce Lee movie!

OK, my monk is only level 10; perhaps like many skills UAC becomes more effective the more experienced you get, but right now I am not seeing this. Among other things, she often has to wait until the critter acts (i.e. comes out of defensive) in order to be able to hit them. Old style stance dancing ... which more or less works now, but is pretty much suicide if done from the open later on in the game, when critters have spells and maneuver attacks.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

OK, best I could do on short notice; level 27 warrior vs level 26 tree spirit. She's a Voln master and they are undead, so to be fair I didn't use any symbols. Yes, this open combat takes a lot longer by comparison (28 seconds vs the 6 for the ambusher ... ok, 9 if you count the hiding RT) but warriors are designed to take the damage. She's in MBP armor.

>>ne
[Upper Trollfang, Winding Trees]
Trees upon trees crisscross in front of your eyes making you feel a bit dizzy. There is a faint scent of cothinar in the air but you cannot find any sign of the flower nearby. You also see a tree spirit.
Obvious paths: east, southwest
>
Gusts of heavy snowfall blow across the area.
>
The spirit whispers with a sinister voice carried on the wind!
A tree spirit whistles a soft, malicious tune!
>wtrick feint
[Roll result: 173 (open d100: 86) Penalties: 0]
You feint to the left, the tree spirit buys the ruse and twists awkwardly to block the blow that never came!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>mstrike spir
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a well-made vultite mattock at a tree spirit!
AS: +250 vs DS: +142 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +73 = +216
... and hit for 88 points of damage!
A massive blow to the right shoulder hoists the tree spirit high into the air.
It hangs there a moment, suspended, before falling forward.
You swing a well-made vultite mattock at a tree spirit!
AS: +250 vs DS: +138 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +18 = +165
... and hit for 50 points of damage!
Smash to the chest!
Good thing there were no ribs there to shatter.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
R>
A tree spirit gestures at you!
You notice a small cloud form above you.
R>
You feel fully energetic again.
R>at
You swing a well-made vultite mattock at a tree spirit!
AS: +250 vs DS: +115 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +21 = +191
... and hit for 62 points of damage!
Hard shot to the tree spirit's back sends it drifting forward!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
The spirit whispers with a sinister voice carried on the wind!
A tree spirit tries to ensnare you!
AS: +160 vs DS: +81 with AvD: +50 + d100 roll: +23 = +152
... and hits for 5 points of damage!
Impotent blow.
R>at
You swing a well-made vultite mattock at a tree spirit!
AS: +250 vs DS: +113 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +13 = +185
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Good hit!
Right shoulder is ripped from its socket, then wriggles back into place.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
You notice the storm cloud begin to churn rapidly!
R>
A tree spirit whistles a soft, malicious tune!
R>mstrike spir
You are still a bit winded from your last flurry of attacks, but you focus to push the strain in your muscles from your mind.
You concentrate intently, focusing all your energies.
You explode into a fury of strikes and ripostes, moving with a singular purpose and will!
You swing a well-made vultite mattock at a tree spirit!
The tree spirit barely dodges the attack!
You swing a well-made vultite mattock at a tree spirit!
AS: +250 vs DS: +192 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +71 = +164
... and hit for 44 points of damage!
Hit passes right through the midsection.
Nothing hurts like an empty stomach.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the tree spirit's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The tree spirit slowly settles to the ground and begins to dissipate.

Your series of strikes and ripostes leaves you winded and out of position.
Roundtime: 8 sec.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>To be fair, you shouldn't compare crit killing a corporeal creature to bleeding out a non-corp.<<

Actually, I suspect that attacking a living creature would make the comparison between monk and warrior fighting from the open even worse; I can use warrior maneuvers like bull rush or guild skills like tackle or warcry against them; Non-corps are immune to such things. Also live foes will often stun or crit with weapons. I don't think the monk's spells make up for the armor/cman/guild advantages warriors have. My warrior, who has both brawling and THW skills, also seems to have access to the brawling CMans just like monks. Punch mastery and such. Of course, I suspect using UAC with her would be much less effective, since she is in metal plate armor, so she's not going to waste time learning those.

I was going to use the Spider Temple as an example, as the priests there are alive and pretty much the same level, but figured I'd get my gal some favor while I was at it. Maybe I'll try the Temple next.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

A monk can hunt frosties without problems at level 30, never mind 38. You probably shouldn't take dangerous critter tasks until level 32, because of just how difficult it would be to tier if you got one right at the top of the level range. You can bleed them out at decent, but it takes a painfully long time.

You need to get close to level 30 to get the CMans, aiming skill, spells and mana to use them in place, but once you have them, critters without lethal manoevers or CS spells are cake.

1207, jab and tier up if you get lucky while waiting for it to stand. Once its stood up, punch its leg to knock it back down again and its head to finish it. In the unlikely event that you don't tier before its ready to swing, 1207 it again. If your fire flares go off and stun it while its still in defensive, feint rather than wait for it to stand up to stance it.

Once a frostie is stanced, you are virtually certain to get a knockdown from a leg punch and pretty likely to crit kill with a head punch, even with only one tier. The lesser ice giant is the only one of the cold giants with enough armor/padding to make getting excellent desirable.

Yes, I was starting to suspect that monks were a profession that needed time and levels to reach a decent hunting ability; sort of like sorcerers. But level 30 seems a bit much. Folks playing low level monks are likely to get discouraged, especially if they are unaware of this. Not a good design concept there, IMO. But I can probably get my monk (who, like all my folks, is in Voln) to 25 or so just by hunting undead in the GY; the lower level undead are laughably slow in their movements and attack cycles. Also, I have noticed that if I underhunt her moderately, she can get results just like my ambushing rogue, except from the open and not hiding.

Level 10 monk vs level 6 mummies. Note: I totally gave up on the tiering up nonsense, and just went for the money attacks, punch and kick, from the start. The following excerpt is quite typical. She almost always got 2 shot kills, occasionally needing 3 attacks. Is this just due mostly to the level difference?

>>w
[Hall of the Dead, Vault Room]
Although not as ornately carved as some in these halls, the niches here are neat. The placards are simply decorated, while still reflecting some form of family wealth. You also see a lesser mummy.
Obvious exits: east, west, northwest
>stance offen
> punch
>
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You attempt to punch a lesser mummy!
You have decent positioning against a lesser mummy.
UAF: 88 vs UDF: 60 = 1.466 * MM: 100 + d100: 71 = 217
... and hit for 49 points of damage!
Sinking strike to the gut.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>stance offen
> kick
You are now in an offensive stance.
>
You attempt to kick a lesser mummy!
You have decent positioning against a lesser mummy.
UAF: 88 vs UDF: 56 = 1.571 * MM: 110 + d100: 41 = 213
... and hit for 80 points of damage!
Front kick to midsection doubles the lesser mummy over!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the lesser mummy's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The lesser mummy falls to the ground motionless.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

Also, I totally forgot ... I have one rank each of punch and kick mastery. If I am reading the rules correctly, doesn't that give an automatic one rank tier up using those attack modes?

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

>>Neither, it's too important to keep my MM as high as possible since the first couple attacks HAVE to get through and I don't need the defense if they succeed (besides, training to use a shield would take points away from other things I need). At level 22 my monk <snip>

The comparison was with a warrior using a shield, not a monk. Of course a monk shouldn't be training Shield Use due to their ludicrous tp cost for the skill and lack of shield maneuvers (which also would mean a much larger MM penalty).

Also, your problems will begin shortly as you start to face spell casting mobs in most hunting area as you head into your mid to upper 20's. No amount of spells will overcome the monk's CvA deficit so you'll need to start using Feint which will require a weapon unless you have Rank 5 in it (at a cost of 27 CM points).

>>I wait in defensive for the critter to attack me before opening up with a JAB or PUNCH.

This will not work much longer, see above.

>>You can't try to make your monk work like another profession, you have to use them like a monk.

Yes, this is true.

>>I don't need a shield or weapon because I 3x in dodge, my gloves and boots both flare, Brace allows me to parry, and JAB/PUNCH/GRAPPLE/KICK attacks have the safe effects as most maneuvers that require a weapon or shield (even if they are random).

The entire point of my post is that you will be required to use weapons to use certain cman's, at least one of which (Feint) is mandatory once you start facing casters. When you use a weapon you won't gain any effects from Brace except for the chance to disarm when something hits your arms.

None of the UAC attacks will be effective at shutting down a caster without tiering up, thus the point of using Feint.

I was making the point that for a similar or lower cost in MM penalty, warriors gain only benefits from holding an item (a shield) if they so choose, whereas monks are REQUIRED to use a weapon for several cman's and said weapon use gives them both a MM penalty and screws up Brace among other things.

This is what I have so far at level 10. As mentioned, I shorted the physical TPs in order to get more mental, and those are even so in short supply.

>
Level: 10 Deeds: 1
Experience: 127278 Death's Sting: None
Exp. until next: 12722 Recent Deaths: 0
Mental TPs: 14 Fame: 39890
Physical TPs: 18 Mana: 20/20 max

Your mind is fresh and clear.

You feel a strange sense of serenity and find that you are able to reflect on recent events with uncommon clarity and understanding.
>inf
Name: Guinlin Race: Giantman Profession: Monk (not shown)
Gender: Female Age: 0 Expr: 127278 Level: 10
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 64 (22) ... 64 (22)
Constitution (CON): 65 (17) ... 65 (17)
Dexterity (DEX): 63 (1) ... 63 (1)
Agility (AGI): 62 (1) ... 62 (1)
Discipline (DIS): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Aura (AUR): 62 (1) ... 62 (1)
Logic (LOG): 80 (10) ... 80 (10)
Intuition (INT): 79 (14) ... 79 (14)
Wisdom (WIS): 79 (14) ... 79 (14)
Influence (INF): 77 (18) ... 77 (18)
Mana: 20 Silver: 0
>skill
Guinlin (at level 10), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 50 10
Combat Maneuvers...................| 90 20
Brawling...........................| 102 24
Physical Fitness...................| 132 36
Dodging............................| 128 34
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Perception.........................| 15 3
Climbing...........................| 58 12
Swimming...........................| 50 10

Spell Lists
Minor Mental.......................| 6
Training Points: 18 Phy 14 Mnt

OK, her perception and harness power are meager, she has enough TPs saved up to get the last 2 ranks of dodge, but she could also use more CMans, so I am undecided; I'll keep them uncommitted for now.

Another way in which warriors are better off is that they have a guild! If you notice, my post with a warrior vs Tree spirit, she used WTrick feint, not a CMan. Monks needing to use feint will have to waste CMan points to learn this tactic.

I suggest that spell 1204 be adjusted to grant the CvA as well as the AsG of the armor type being magically created, that monks be able to feint barehanded from rank 1, and that costs for things like HP and mental lores be lowered.

The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

AGIDEX of 2 is going to be painful. More than 23 doesn't help all that much, but less will hurt badly when you aim.

I keep hearing the same people complain about UAC and monks compared to other people.

This clip is about how it goes for most of my hunts



You make a precise attempt to punch an Ithzir scout!
You exploit the momentum of your previous strike to make a stronger attack against an Ithzir scout!
You have good positioning against an Ithzir scout.
UAF: 619 vs UDF: 417 = 1.484 * MM: 111 + d100: 34 = 198
... and hit for 50 points of damage!
Solid blow to the jaw leaves the Ithzir scout spitting blood... and teeth!
The Ithzir scout is stunned!
The Ithzir scout chokes, momentarily unable to speak!
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup punch attack!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
An Ithzir adept fades into view!
An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you!
An Ithzir adept hurls a roaring ball of fire at you!
AS: +379 vs DS: +590 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +35 = -131
A clean miss.
>punch head
You make a precise attempt to punch an Ithzir scout!
You have excellent positioning against an Ithzir scout.
UAF: 619 vs UDF: 388 = 1.595 * MM: 117 + d100: 89 = 275
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
Explosive punch to the face leaves little else than a pulpy mass of blood, bone, and brain matter!
The Ithzir scout falls to the ground in a crumpled heap.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
An Ithzir adept closes her eyes while incanting an alien phrase.
R>search
You search the Ithzir scout.
You discard the scout's useless equipment.
She didn't carry any silver.
She had a lavender shimmarglin sapphire on her!
She also left a tiny golden seed behind.
She had nothing else of value.
An Ithzir scout's body shimmers slightly, then fades from view like a dissipating phantom.
>punch head
You make a precise attempt to punch an Ithzir adept!
You exploit the momentum of your previous strike to make a stronger attack against an Ithzir adept!
You have excellent positioning against an Ithzir adept.
UAF: 619 vs UDF: 559 = 1.107 * MM: 109 + d100: 11 = 131
... and hit for 49 points of damage!
Awesome punch to forehead snaps head straight back with a sickening CRUNCH!
The Ithzir adept clutches at her wounds as she falls, the life fading from her eyes.
The Ithzir adept no longer bristles with energy.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding an Ithzir adept suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves an Ithzir adept.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
An Ithzir adept becomes solid again.
The bright luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
An Ithzir scout makes no sound as he slips in.
R>search
You search the Ithzir adept.
She had a twisted crystal-tipped staff.
You discard the adept's remaining useless equipment.
She didn't carry any silver.
She had nothing of interest.
An Ithzir adept's body shimmers slightly, then fades from view like a dissipating phantom.
>punch head
You make a precise attempt to punch an Ithzir scout!
You exploit the momentum of your previous strike to make a stronger attack against an Ithzir scout!
You have excellent positioning against an Ithzir scout.
UAF: 619 vs UDF: 641 = 0.965 * MM: 73 + d100: 66 = 136
... and hit for 44 points of damage!
Palm strike to face drives nose straight into brain!
The Ithzir scout falls to the ground in a crumpled heap.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>search
You search the Ithzir scout.
He had a gleaming steel broadsword.
You discard the scout's remaining useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had a shimmertine shard on him!
He had nothing else of value.
An Ithzir scout's body shimmers slightly, then fades from view like a dissipating phantom.


While I agree with the TD issues monks have, but no complaints at all about the UAC system

Russ

here is how I'm trained - I use vertigo pretty often. But with only 132 mana, and it being 19, it's mostly saved. I tend to use force projection upon greeting a fight. I often look for 1 creature hanging out by itself to tier up on, and then as the swarm builds I i switch back and forth between targets. it takes more work than some of the other classes, but I've found, and this may be considered cheating, that if I leg one creature, and remove it's ability to cause me harm, I can keep coming back to it if my tiering up against other foes in the room doesnt go well.

For instance , I will knock over a greater construct and get to max tier on them, then as other creatures enter the room, I switch to them, if I fail a good tier achievement from Krynch, then I jab the construct again, do minimal damage and refresh my chance to be 2nd or 3rd tier when I switch back to the new creature. I have tried using some of the other stances, but I've found that krynch is the best one to use. I did use slippery mind a lot when fighting liches or other casting only areas.

My CS wards most things that are like level - and part of it depends which area I want to kill things. For the Old City I use force projection and feint and stay completely melee, only pulling vertigo if I think it's going to be a live situation. In the temple on teras I tend to use 1210 a lot and then FP and feint, as they are a lot easier to ward than the creatures in OTF.

I tried every combo of monk that there is during the breaking in process. As a monk you can DW one handed axes for 10 open strikes or 8 focused strikes in 6 seconds. If you use daggers or short swords I had it at 5 seconds. The 2 weapon build was light on spells though, as I only had about 15 of them and have found that I enjoy UAC more. I wish there was a way to somehow give monks better options when it came to multi attacks. they currently are not so great when it comes to handling swarms.

I've found hunting with a partner makes most of the holes in monks go away. Do they still need some work? I think a little, yes. But it's not as bad as many people are making it out to be.

The lower levels are the hardest, as you push to get to dragonclaw and 1x in spells to level 9. It does eventually even out, though I'm still converting training points. I know once I get past the cap threshold it will even out more.

It's often one of those "pick your battles" things. Know which creatures you will be more effective against and which ones you will want to avoid.

I love being a monk. :)

(at level 95), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Combat Maneuvers...................| 294 194
Brawling...........................| 300 200
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 151 51
Physical Fitness...................| 391 291
Dodging............................| 391 291
Magic Item Use.....................| 136 38
Harness Power......................| 142 42
Mental Mana Control................| 105 25
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 70 15
Survival...........................| 150 50
Perception.........................| 140 40
Climbing...........................| 150 50
Swimming...........................| 150 50

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 20

Spell Lists
Minor Mental.......................| 20

Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (30) ... 138 (49)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 110 (30)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (25) ... 139 (44)
Agility (AGI): 100 (25) ... 138 (44)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 114 (32)
Aura (AUR): 93 (21) ... 103 (26)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 110 (35)
Intuition (INT): 92 (26) ... 102 (31)
Wisdom (WIS): 82 (16) ... 92 (21)
Influence (INF): 56 (3) ... 66 (8)
Mana: 132

>>For instance , I will knock over a greater construct and get to max tier on them, then as other creatures enter the room, I switch to them, if I fail a good tier achievement from Krynch, then I jab the construct again, do minimal damage and refresh my chance to be 2nd or 3rd tier when I switch back to the new creature.

I like this.

>>My CS wards most things that are like level

This is good to hear, MTPs are in short supply..but I as a player am ok with the idea of training fairly heavily in HP even as a square.

>>I wish there was a way to somehow give monks better options when it came to multi attacks. they currently are not so great when it comes to handling swarms.

I tried a warcamp several times one day and couldn't quite make my current training work for a successful hunt. I lived but didn't kill very much. I'm sure it is doable with a different build, tactics, or gear but swarms certainly are far more challenging on my monk than most if not all of my other hunting viable characters.

>>I've found hunting with a partner makes most of the holes in monks go away.

Only issue I have with this is that I find myself only tagging when I hunt with others, since they can usually kill far quicker. I'm ok with my monk being turned into a sidekick when grouphunting, but this is certainly one of the things that I know is irksome to a number of people.

>>I love being a monk. :)

I certainly enjoy playing mine. I do have a few non uac builds I'd like to try and I know at which level range I want to experiment, but I'll likely return to uac afterwards. Eager to someday have those postcap TPs for some builds that simply are possible while leveling.


>>Stats

What level did you convert? I'm surprised you didn't place for max since you were likely a fairly high level already. I know around level 80 for me is when a character placed for max stat growth really has left behind any weaknesses. Granted I suppose you are simply missing some elem/spirit TD and a minor amount of DS from the intuition.

Scouts are base 89 and he is level 95, I'd hardly call that like level, heh. Using krynch like that is very smart but you shouldn't have to do that to be effective.

fail -

the cva for the plate armor doesnt make up for the ds loss from dodge. Now I know.

R