I also like my idea of boosting the AS modifier to an amount that actually matters. Maybe -75 AS for 20sec rather than -25 for 60? Maybe have the DF effect still last the minute.

I'd consider using that for things like golems if it worked like this.

>> I also like my idea of boosting the AS modifier to an amount that actually matters. Maybe -75 AS for 20sec rather than -25 for 60? Maybe have the DF effect still last the minute.

I think part of the reluctance for THAT much -AS is that it almost assuredly put the target into auto-miss territory, and we're unlikely to get such a change (esp. from a 12th circle spell). The games fundamental combat of a 100 endroll makes it hard to do penalties like that without making up the lost AS some other way (see 425, it's "required" simply because it's too much bonus to balance the game for people to both have and have not).

A Better way that doesn't just turn it into an "auto-nerf" spell would be something like giving it a flat 10% chance to make the critter miss, increased up to 50% as it stacks.

Thoughts?

The thing is, this spell has no warding check. That's what is holding it back. -75 AS without so much as even a level VS level check is asking a lot.

I wouldn't mind some sort of an upper limit put on it's ability to hit targets (like Sounds), but that may fall outside the scope of the ELR changes.

>> I think the fundamental issue isn't whether or not the spell is good, it's honestly good, it's a question of whether or not the spell is efficient enough to find a place in a combat rotation. As it stands, it's a bit too pricey with all the other stuff wizards have going on.

Wish I could edit. I'm jumping between wizard and non-wizard folder too much, and I apologize. Anybody with minor elemental would have to consider the cost, not just wizards. I just know wizards have mana concerns already, and I'm sure Warrior/Rogue also needs to make that choice. It's less attractive to them (warriors at least) because they have high DF.

Bards maybe? Although they may have better in their native circle.

Ondrien (sp SORRY!) says he makes use of this spell as a rogue, even in its current form. I think he's one of the very few with enough magical ranks to have access to it, enough mana to use it, and gains enough of an advantage from casting it to make up for the 3 seconds it takes to do so. It's useful to him because it does not require any magical skill to use.

Somehow I doubt that he'll ever get 20 ranks of earth lore to get the open cast version, and that's where I think there was a missed opportunity. The spell was improved, even for non-wizards, by adding the DF penalty. The addition of lores should have made the spell more useful to those who would actually bother to train in earth lore. Namely wizards.

What bonus could be added to the spell via earth lore which would make it useful to a wizard but not be so powerful as to require a change in how the base spell operates?

The only thing that comes to mind is a maneuver attack penalty. If you could make a creature less effective at maneuvers without having to ward it, that could be useful. The AS and DF bonuses would be nice too, but ultimately fluff.

So at 20 ranks of (probably Fire) lore, the target also suffers a blanket penalty to its offensive maneuver capabilities in addition to the -25 AS and 10% DF.

In order to hit the room, you'd need 20+ ranks of Earth lore and 20+ ranks of Fire lore, but you'd weaken the offensive capabilities of 2 creatures in two different ways.

Seems like that would make the spell quite useful while not buffing it to the point of being overly powerful without a skill check of some sort.

I smell some bannings are almost needed at this point.

>If 412 hit enough targets in the room so that it could actually deal with a swarm WITHOUT being an Earth lore nerd, that'd work too. As it stands now, 3 targets for 40 Earth Lore ranks is a bit steep. Heck, even Seed 10 starts to look nice at this point, as at least you get the second target at 10 ranks instead of 20.

Yes, it IS a 12th level spell, other similar mass not-so-disabling spells like mass calm will do a whole room.

>>>Ondrien (sp SORRY!) says he makes use of this spell as a rogue, even in its current form. I think he's one of the very few with enough magical ranks to have access to it, enough mana to use it, and gains enough of an advantage from casting it to make up for the 3 seconds it takes to do so. It's useful to him because it does not require any magical skill to use.

It's Ondreian! :)

I've found it particularly useful against creatures where I know I (or my hunting partners) are going to be mechanically forced into take the second round of attack or where the creature has an incredibly high potential for DPS.

Examples of this are flying creatures because I do not have the ability to strike them first, grizzled/ancient/dangerous creatures (they don't stun and have very short rounds), invasion creatures with feras weapons (THANKS KENSTROM), or creatures that are immune (or incredibly resistant usually due to level differential) to ewave.

It also frees me up to hide in the soft RT of these combat situations whilst leaving my hunting partner in the open and not have to worry about them taking too much damage, so I can maximize our chance to disable the creature as efficiently as possible.

Do I use it consistently every hunt? No.

Does it have a place to mitigate certain situations? Definitely, and I really can't ask much more out of a level 12 guaranteed warding.

I however tend to play a considerably more conservative and defensively minded style than most people, and as much as I have seen people complain about RT stacking and stunning into oblivion being annoying, this is most certainly a way to combat those situations for your character.

>Ewave is minor circle and it's freaking great.

sssshhhh not so loudly!