>> The fire DoT only flares every 10 seconds. Your log shows that you cast 519, then the fire DoT flares, and finally the creature attacks. Unfortunately, there's no real way to show time elapsed in the log (unless you're continuously applying roundtime to yourself), but it seems to me that 10 seconds did elapse, which is why the creature did not attack sooner. Is it possible that you lagged out for a few seconds?

I generally don't have any lag and would discount any testing if there was any noticeable lag at the time. I use my attacks to capture RT given I pretty much do them as soon as RT is up (I was being generous in saying that up to 5 seconds had passed in my log example.

>> Have you been able to reproduce that issue since then?

Honestly I've started playing other characters and other games vs. hunting with Faulkil due to the current challenges with this spell (I was sort of hoping the spell would get fixed based on the information already shared so just found other things to to in the meantime).

I'll make it a point to go in and do some additional testing either later in the week or this coming weekend latest and try to capture at least three new examples. Maybe I'll see if I can create some sort of Ruby Script that echoes time with seconds every 10 seconds or so or that I can call with each cast to show the current time with seconds.

>> The spell always ends exactly after 1 round when in water - it always has. Creatures have a 25% chance to not roll around (and thus receive no roundtime for that round). These two are unrelated events. That's also why you don't see the combatant try to roll around in the above log.

On this... I wasn't arguing that the spell didn't work this way in the past so much as, given some of the recent adjustments made and this being the disabler version, maybe they should have to actually roll to get the 100% chance for the spell to end in the current version.


One of the characters I've been playing more of recently is my cleric. While it lacks the same flash as immolation, Bind is a great example of a reliable warding-based disabler spell. You know if you were successful or not in casting it, the spell stops opponent casting and maneuvers while it is active, you have a pretty decent idea of how long the spell effect will last based on your warding margin, and you get a clear indication of when the spell effect expires.

Immolation is lacking in that you don't know if you were successful (you know you successfully cast the spell but it may not matter at all), it doesn't reliably stop manuevers or casting, and you don't know how long it will last. You get the 'benefit' of some damage up front and there is still some kill chance so I guess you can call it a trade-off but I'm definitely finding I like bind with my cleric much more than I like Immolation and I don't see anything else that even comes close in our current spell selection. Also, bind is 4 less mana to cast so I would argue the additional 4 mana covers at least the damage component for Immolation.

Anyway... getting off track and a little frustrated so I'll stop while we're ahead. Look for my combat example / updated bug post by this weekend at the latest.


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

I doubt I'll get an answer due to the new "not telling you anything until it's done because I might get hit by a bus tomorrow" thing with dev, but is Immolate going to get any love? Or has staff decided that the spell is fine as is and needs no further development? Don't care about time frames or whatever. I just want to know if staff is done with this spell or if there is/will be something in the works for it to make it stop being garbage.

Thanks.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

> The good news is that if they do follow that model, by 2030 wizards should be the envy of the GS world and lores will provide meaningful choices at last!

Always find the silver lining.

~ Konacon

I spent a good 30 minutes casting immolation at things and wasn't able to reproduce the issue. I guess I'll call it working as intended at present but I'll leave the extra line in my cast code that throws a timestamp each cast in case I observe the issue again.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Methais

I doubt I'll get an answer due to the new "not telling you anything until it's done because I might get hit by a bus tomorrow" thing with dev, but is Immolate going to get any love? Or has staff decided that the spell is fine as is and needs no further development? Don't care about time frames or whatever. I just want to know if staff is done with this spell or if there is/will be something in the works for it to make it stop being garbage.

No, there are no planned updates for Immolation (519). It's working as intended and to the desired level, which is comparable to Divine Fury (317) and Wither (1115). A comparison against tens of thousands of casts for each of those spells was performed to make such an analysis. Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

GameMaster Estild

If we get enough reviews this game will be as fun as some of my meetings at work...

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

>That was a statement based upon how it worked at the time of posting. As I stated, the design never intended for that to be possible.

So why wouldn't he include or you follow up with the fact that it was broken? That's very odd.

>Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

You have to be kidding me. It's not bad enough that the GMs made Immolation the joke of the entire game but now you're going to go ahead and nerf 415, the only real CS spell wizards have left anymore?

Just leave well enough alone already. Geez.

On a related note I have an awesome idea for a new item in the game, it can maybe even be a God auction item: when worn your class appears to be sorcerer to everyone else, including GMs! With this awesome class concealer item worn you are no longer subjected to all of the wizard "fixes" and instead receive an endless stream of buffs and perks.

Thoughts?

>No one. You're talking about 2 separate statements from 2 separate people.

Well, no, because you're in a sense speaking for him.

So either Cyraex had no idea it was a bug at the time, or he was indeed omitting the bit of information that it was a bug.

If it was the former one really has to wonder why no other GM at the time stepped in and said "Just to be clear, this is currently a bug and will be 'fixed' at some point."

It honestly sounds like the GMs didn't realize how "good" 415 is (well in actuality how terrible 519 is in comparison) and now just want to "fix" it and are trying to be suave about it by claiming it was always broken.

The lore "benefit" already makes the spell 5 mana more expensive, does it really need "fixing"?

Obviously it was an oversight. I'm still amazed that there's all this ruckus over wizards CS spells. You picked the BOLT casting class. If there's an issue with wizard lethality it should be addressed via bolts.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

>In both the original post by GM Cyraex and the actual coding, it was clearly designed and coded to hit two targets

That's not the part they are "fixing", they are fixing the part where it currently hits the same critter twice. So if you're in a room with just 1 critter 415 will only ever hit once.

>That's not the part they are "fixing", they are fixing the part where it currently hits the same critter twice. So if you're in a room with just 1 critter 415 will only ever hit once.

Yeah I know, I mis-typed. Still this is completely just throwing spaghetti at the wall at this point.

And of course unlike everyone with their quickstrike migration, we get no lore migration or additional fixskills to repair the continued decimation of the class.

>No, there are no planned updates for Immolation (519). It's working as intended and to the desired level, which is comparable to Divine Fury (317) and Wither (1115). A comparison against tens of thousands of casts for each of those spells was performed to make such an analysis. Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

Yeah well...no, it's not. What makes you even think it is especially considering the fact that pretty much every wizard
thinks this spell is a joke now? If it was on par with those other spells, then why don't clerics and empaths consider those spells a joke? Serious question.

>>Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

Care to explain why not even one time in all the posts and logs of 415 and discussions about the spell vs. Immolate was this mentioned to us? I honestly have a hard time believing this is the case and is more a case of "Immolate wizards are switching to 415 builds for the double cast and we don't want them doing that. But since we've already outraged them to an immeasurable degree with the butchering we already gave them, we'll say it was a bug."

Since you guys are hell bent on wrecking us, can we throw this "no info on new stuff until it's done" thing out the window and just tell us what you guys actually are working on for wizards? We're already well aware that Konacon or whoever could get hit by a bus or go be a Buddhist monk that could cause all kinds of problems for it so there's no reason to hide behind that as a reason to not give us any info.

I'm really getting tired of having to migrate from one build to another because you guys keep nerfing everything. So if you could just inform us on what's in store for us so we'll have some sort of clue at all the direction we're being shoehorned in, it would be appreciated.

What other professions are on the nerf list if any, so I'll know what else to avoid?

>No one. You're talking about 2 separate statements from 2 separate people.

We're talking about 2 separate statements from 1 company. I mean was there some reason you didn't jump in and clarify it after he posted that? I'm quite sure you didn't just happen to miss that post or something.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

I'm also curious...do you guys really think 415 double casting vs. one target is overpowered for 20 mana? The damage is random according to you (concussion damage at least), so that's not reliable.


For 20 mana and 100 ranks of fire lore (for 100%, because we need reliability) we get this. This is all vs. the same radical:

You gesture at a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +43 == +147
Warding failed!
You blast a triton radical for 25 points of damage.
... 25 points of damage!
Right hand fried to a crisp. Think barbecue sauce.
The triton radical is knocked over by the blast!

A vortex of elemental energy suddenly strikes a triton radical!
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +79 == +183
Warding failed!
You blast a triton radical for 42 points of damage.
... 50 points of damage!
Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.




And for 4 mana and 20 ranks of fire lore, we get this:


You hurl a seething blast of steam at a triton radical!
AS: +491 vs DS: +278 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +38 = +295
... and hit for 150 points of damage!
Superheated steam boils internal organs! The triton radical's heart is boiled.. not broken.
The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
A triton radical seems slightly different.
Fiery elemental energy energizes you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Note the crappy d100 roll on that 903 shot also.

415 double cast damage vs. single target isn't overpowered. Sure sometimes the damage is higher than that, but sometimes it's lower too. Because it's random. Either way, it's not OP, and nothing like level is going to be getting one shotted with it without it being a crit death.

I realize that new stuff is in development and it won't be nerfed until then, and I'm hoping that when this new stuff comes out I won't even care about 415, but I laso don't hold my breath in regards to any wizard dev anymore, and instead I just assume the worst, since doing anything else has led to nothing but being let down. Even moreso after being told that you guys still think Immolate is fine, combined with the method of testing you used for it vs. 317/1115 (non optimal CS, not factoring 240, seeming to think that 516 = 240, etc.)

But that aside, what exactly is the problem with 415 double casts vs. single target? I want to know why you think it's overpowered. And if you don't think it's OP, then the whole "It wasn't intended to double cast vs. single target" thing kind of goes out the window. Even if that was the case (which I still have a hard time believing, but whatever), this unintended feature needs to stay if you expect the spell to be used and trained in fire lore for. 415 is the only real reason to train heavily in fire lore right now, as Immolate is trash and nobody in their right mind is gonna train heavy fire lore for that. And you're not going to find wizards training heavy fire lore just to hit a second target with 415 either. And other than 908 splash, there is literally no other benefit to heavy fire lore training that I'm aware of, unless you count the small DF increase for 906/908. Which again, nobody is going to go heavy on lore for.

So again, the only reason to go heavy fire lore right now is for single target 415 double casts. If this is going to be nerfed, then the lore requirement for the non-single target double cast needs to at least be cut in half. Wizards are being required to train in too much lore for too little benefit otherwise. Please stop exacerbating that problem with nonsense like 415 nerfs.

Here's what I'm really interested in though:
If you were a wizard (I'm just assuming you don't play or haven't played one to any real degree at cap in the live game based on the seeming inability to truly understand our concerns, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't mean that as an insult either. *glances at Aulis* It would be like if I were doing dev for Paladins or something.) what would your training look like, assuming you wanted maximum combat effectiveness, and why would you use said training path in the current state of the game?

And why is it that if other pures want to bolt, they could train for it and hunt exclusively with bolts if that's what they wanted, and they would still be effective hunters (not as effective as their go to warding spells, but still effective, and without massive lore requirements either), but if wizards want to primarily be warders, you guys keep throwing up roadblocks on top of the huge lore requirements that are already in place?

If 415 single target double casts went away tomorrow, I would probably drop fire lore down from my current 101 ranks (other 101 is air, don't get me started on that) to 20 or whatever is required for Steam Bolt, because that's all it would really be good for.

Again, I know 415 isn't slated to get nerfed until the new spells are out, but since we can't even waterboard any info on the new spells out of you guys, I can only base things on what's already in place, and unfortunately, the "Trust me" approach in regards to wizard dev holds no weight with (most of) us anymore.

I am glad that the test server is going to be opened though. Do you have any info on when that will happen? Because there's a good bit of testing I wouldn't mind being able to do right now.

And lastly, what's wrong with the idea of un-nerfing 519 and moving it to 525 or 530? I made a post last week as to why this wouldn't be OP, as it would be on part with 1030. Unless you think 1030 is OP too. Do you?

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

>You should stop there already because they already said yes to the latter.

This ridiculousness never ceases to amaze me. Stop taking peoples' options away (future tense included) and then wondering why people are quitting and/or not having fun anymore.

Or just let everyone convert to sorcerers.

Can we maybe just get a list of what spells Simu doesn't think are overpowered?

I can't help but wonder if DW realizes that making a game worse over time is the opposite of good game design.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Whirlin! Talk to me, man. What's going on around here? I require your perspective.

~Taverkin

Well, it certainly sounds like the warmage has become far more dynamic. That's good. But it sounds like the ELR is forcing wizards to go for the lower level lore benefits because they don't scale well with continued training. Perhaps if we had more attractive options for heavy investment in a single lore, we might start to see a distinctive pure build emerge?

~Taverkin

> Wizards at the moment really need a way to be able to effectively kill something that we have a limited AS/DS margin on...

This should be pretty decently handled by one of the coming updates...

~ Konacon

>I will note that when players complain about not being able to train in all the lores they want, it's an affirmation for the design goal of making each lore competitive.

There's a vast difference between forced mediocrity and competitiveness. Right now wizards are forced to make the least harmful choices to their character's builds instead of choosing to train in any specific lore because there are valuable strengths.

This is a world of difference from the SLR, where each of religion, summoning, and blessings lore provide very tangible offensive benefits.