1) First understand how it works.

If a box is "too difficult" for your pick, you get 250 exp no matter how much it was too difficult by. As a rough guide this means if you needed an open roll to open it but the exact roll at which a box becomes "too difficult" varies from character to character. (On a 2x giant bard it is that difficult but a 3x halfling rogue has a bit of leeway. Whether that leeway is down to race, stat, profession or training is not something I have the data to determine.)

Once a box is "in a reasonable range" the experience ramps gradually from 150 down to 100 at one rate, and then from 100 down to 25 at another. The less you needed to roll to open the box, the less experience you get.

Once a box is "trivially easy" experience is a flat 25.

If you have less than 30 ranks in picking experience is reduced to 20.

If you used 403, experience is reduced by 50%.

Experience is reduced depending on how full your head is in a similar way to critter experience. If you are numbed and zooming through 3 boxes per minute at a nominal 25 per box, your mind will actually be emptying because that 25 is hit hard just like exp for easy critters is hit hard. I don't have exact figures but you might actually be only getting 20 into your bucket in that minute rather than 75.

Fame is experience at belled/10*2. e.g. if you would have got 145 experience at belled, the fame award is 28. (and if your fame goes up by 28, you know that you got 140 or 145 experience less the penalty for mind state)

(Trap experience works the same way, but since you have no equivalent way to adjust the difficulty of a trap that using different picks provides, its more a case of sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't rather than something skill can be used to optimise significantly)

2) Have a method for matching picks to boxes
the three main ones are
a) knowing the critter it came from and the range of locks that critter drops
b) knowing the way in which trap difficulties relate to lock difficulty
c) using calipers
d) loresong
e) sensing

a) and b) are crude and will allow a modest improvement over taking a flat 25 and decent protection against pick breakage, but are more safety measures like knowing what critters will drop boxes whose traps you could miss than useful experience modifiers.

c) and d) give results in bands of 40 (e.g. a rudimentary lock is between -40 and -75 inclusive) with the difference that there is a random error on caliper measurement but not on loresong.

e) gives the exact lock size, as well as a bonus of 5 on future rolls. Its information that is of use if you happen to get it, but not something you can base an initial pick choice off.

3) Have a range of picks
Picks with ranges of mods can be obtained from
a) normal shops
b) merchant shops
c) LM manufacture
d) breakage and repair

The advantage of a) is that the pick properties are known and standard.
The advantage of b) is that picks with non-standard properties that are of use to a smith may be sold. The disadvantage is that practically no merchants understand the lock system well enough to make them and generally speaking merchant shops provide fluff for amateurs rather than serious advantage for professionals. (I can recall one merchant shop and two picks in my history of GS playing that were mechanically worth having for their non-standard properties. One came pre degraded for readier LM reps, and one is a veniom mod with golvern strength)

LM manufacture makes picks with a random variation around the standard shop issue. Its generally only a serious advantage for getting an above average vaalin for record breaking. Theoretically a silver pick with an above average mod could provide an advantage, and a mithril pick with a below average mod could provide an advantage, but the variation is small and hard to characterise and vanishes very fast on usage, so normally it is best to start with a shop bought pick whose properties are known.

Breakage and repair allows picks with mods not otherwise available to be manufactured. e.g. the range between veniom (2.2) and rolaren (1.9) is huge and the only way to get a pick with a mod somewhere in the middle is by breaking and repairing a higher mod pick to degrade it onto that range. Even more important for high level smiths is that there is nothing below copper (1.0) and to get appropriate picks for ranges below where copper is optimum higher mod picks need to be broken and repaired many times to tune their mods (even capped critters drop primitive 5-35 range locks, its not just for kobold boxes in the East Tower).

4. Match the pick to the lock.

As an example, here are the last 5 boxes I picked for myself with commentary.
>det my trunk
You carefully begin to examine an acid-pitted steel trunk for traps...

You discover no traps.
Roundtime: 17 sec.

>lm meas my trunk

You remove some scarab-set professional calipers from in your black stalking cloak.
Using your professional calipers, you carefully begin to measure the lock...
Roundtime: 8 sec.
Measuring carefully, it looks to be a very complex lock.
>
880-915
Measuring carefully, it looks to be a very complex lock.
>
880-915
...
The numerical output is from my script. I remeasured because I'd use a different pick if I got a different result on the remeasure. My copper maxlock is 443, so the optimum pick here is going to have a mod a bit above 2. I have 3 contenders, fresh invar at 2.25, fresh veniom at 2.2 and repaired invar at a bit over 2.1. Had the second roll been a range up, I'd have gone for one of the higher ones, but I don't mind taking risks with the repaired invar as even broken and repaired again it would still be at a useful mod, and perhaps a more useful mod than its current one.
...
>pick trunk with invar lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a lame attempt (d100=22).
You are not able to pick the lock, and learn little about it.
...
going for high experience on a lock, this is the expected result from a roll of 22 and I just keep going.
...
R>pick trunk with invar lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a pathetic attempt (d100=3).
You are not able to pick the lock, and learn little about it.
...
again this is the expected result from a roll of 3 and I just keep going, but if picking for a customer I'm sacrificing experience and shifting to a higher mod on this roll if I hadn't already on the first
...
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a good attempt (d100=79).
You struggle with the trunk. As you do, you get a sense that the trunk has a very complex lock (-885 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>fame
...
and this time it opens. I check my fame to see what the experience was. I see it went up by 50, so I know it was a 250 exp box.
...
>det my trunk
You carefully begin to examine a battered mithril trunk for traps...

Peering closely into the lock, you spy a tiny vial placed just past the tumblers of the lock mechanism. It would appear that any tampering with the lock mechanism would cause the tumblers to crush the vial and release whatever substance is inside.

It looks like an intricate trap (about -271).

...
My normal rule is to use lore if I don't get the exact difficulty, but this isn't a lethal trap and I'm not short on vials, and it has to be pretty close to where I would get the exact number, so I decide not to use lore
...
R>disarm my trunk
Having discovered a trap on the trunk you begin to carefully attempt to disarm it...

You feel like you've made a pathetic attempt.

You carefully push a small ball of cotton into the lock mechanism, surrounding and protecting the small vial from anything that may shatter it.

(You have 97 balls of cotton remaining.)

Roundtime: 12 sec.
R>fame
...
Despite the pathetic roll it disarms anyway and I check my fame. Its up by 20, indicating the trap was worth 100 or 105 to me as opposed to the 12 it would have been with lore.
...
Measuring carefully, it looks to be an extremely well-crafted lock.
R>
690-715
Measuring carefully, it looks to be a very difficult lock.
>
720-755
...
Once again the choice on the first measure is not clearcut. Glaes (1.6) or laje (somewhat below 1.75 as a result of damage). The 715-720 boundary is just about right for the laje and just a little high for the glaes. (yes there's a typo in my script output).
...
>pick trunk with laje lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a competent attempt (d100=65).
You struggle with the trunk. As you do, you get a sense that the trunk has a very difficult lock (-720 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
...
30 fame. 150 lock. Close but no 250 cigar and 65 must have been almost exactly what was required to open it.
...
>det my box
You carefully begin to examine a scratched modwir box for traps...

You discover no traps.

Measuring carefully, it looks to be a very difficult lock.
>
720-755
Measuring carefully, it looks to be a very difficult lock.
>
720-755
>lm cal cal
You make some effort to fine-tune the professional calipers.
Measuring carefully, it looks to be a very difficult lock.
>
720-755
...
This time 3 measurements including a recalibration. The reason is that if its at the top end of this range, I'll probably break my laje again and that will take it down to the point where its not worth repairing because its too similar to glaes, but rolaren (1.9) is a long way up and I'd rather not use it. I might keep measuring, but at this point I decide to take a risk on the laje.
...
>pick box with laje lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make an adequate attempt (d100=56).
You are not able to pick the lock, but you get a feeling that it is within your abilities.
...
A feeling means the roll was 21-40 too low. A feeling on a roll of 56 is acceptable in some cases (e,g, I'd keep trying with the degraded invar) but not here.
...
>pick box with rolaren lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a lame attempt (d100=27).
You struggle with the box. As you do, you get a sense that the box has a very difficult lock (-740 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
...
24 fame. 120 or 125 experience. There'd have been a damage heck on the laje if I'd kept going, and a significant chance of it being degraded into uselessness.
...
You carefully begin to examine a sturdy iron box for traps...

You discover no traps.
Roundtime: 15 sec.

Measuring carefully, it looks to be an amazingly well-crafted lock.
R>
840-875
...
This time it has to be the degraded invar. No need to remeasure.
...
>pick box with invar lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a talented attempt (d100=82).
You struggle with the box. As you do, you get a sense that the box has an intricate lock (-830 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
...
26 fame. 130 or 135 exp. I might get around to degrading more picks into the venoim rolaren gap one day, but for the moment thats the best I can manage.
...
>det my box
You carefully begin to examine an enruned brass box for traps...

You discover no traps.
Roundtime: 17 sec.

Measuring carefully, it looks to be an impressively complicated lock.
>
920-955

Measuring carefully, it looks to be an amazingly intricate lock.
R>
960-995
Those calipers could not be more perfectly calibrated. You should leave them alone. You'll just mess them up.
...
Around the 960 mark. Still in calibration so no point in remeasuring. The appropriate pick close to 960 is the fresh invar.
...
R>pick box with black invar lockpick
You settle into the difficult task of picking the lock.
You make a talented attempt (d100=87).
You struggle with the box. As you do, you get a sense that the box has an amazingly intricate lock (-960 thief-lingo difficulty ranking). Then...CLICK! It opens!
...
Right pick, good luck on the roll. 50 fame/250 exp.

The actual locks on those boxes were fairly good for getting top experience from, 2 out of 5 getting 250 isn't unknown, but the best being 150 is the most likely result from my experience. The rolls were also on the lucky side. More damage checks, and a couple actual degrades would be more typical in that sequence. Only one trap is low. The experience from it was high.

If the customer was actually present, I'd probably have got about 30 exp per box less on average due to starting off with a higher mod pick on some of the marginal choices and switching up when I didn't open first time on others.

The boxes all fell into the glaes/invar range giving me only 7 picks that I was considering using during the sequence. For 5 boxes from the same source thats typical, but across the -5 to -1400 range I have about 27 options (degrades change this from time to time so its not precise) and still have a few holes where I could get better exp by degrading another pick into a mod gap. Its not going to be worth most people getting anywhere near that number before being a capped lockmaster, because each time you train lockpicking the judgement on a particular lock changes.

This sort of play won't be to everyone's taste, but the judgements around choosing the picks to maximise experience that I illustrated above are a lot of what appeals to me about the GS picking system.

<<<This sort of play won't be to everyone's taste, but the judgements around choosing the picks to maximise experience that I illustrated above are a lot of what appeals to me about the GS picking system.>>>

Wow, awesome info! Thank you, RATHBONER! :)

~ GtG

>I really like getting a read from my calipers and then trying to pick the best pick for the box. When I'm picking for other people I just make a rough guess based on the creatures it came from and possibly scoot up or down a level based on how easy the last lock in the set was. This is partly because I don't have very high lock mastery so using calipers is very time consuming.

Caliper accuracy starts off very low (about 120 either side is possible), and is really only useful for spotting the too big to even think about trying to pick locks rather than experience optimisation. I only started to use them seriously for experience optimisation once I mastered LM and could spend a bit of time working out the error range on them without it changing next time I got a rank in LM. I did make serious use of it for checking which boxes were worth trying to get a rep from though. They are pretty useful for telling when to use the mangled veniom for the best shot at a rep. The other thing is that getting reps and getting experience lead to different pick choice, particularly if you are highly trained. Use the mangled veniom and get 25 exp and a rep, or use steel and get 125 exp. I was taking the reps.

Picking for someone else I'd very rarely caliper twice (when critters could drop boxes that would give a new record, I might do it to see whether I would try the lock or offer a wedge or hand it back but only invasion boxes get that high for me now) and if I'm fried I'll just use the guess method and let my mind empty a bit (that will not generate enough experience to stay fried) before calipering to get decent experience and fill it back up again. Once is important if I am trying for experience because I really, really do not want to be using my primitive tuned pick on an extremely easy lock. SNAP and 8 visits to Edwina with at least an hour in between each to get it back again.

If you are lower level/training pick choice isn't as important (capped 3x rogue moves the range 3 times as much when switching picks as level 30 2x bard). Bard is making judgements on picks 0.2/0.3 apart in mod, rogue 0.05/0.1 apart.

>>Is there an obvious exploit that prevents us from removing the experience penalty

Yep, that's where I am after reading through all this. Keep in mind, though <- not'a'rogue.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that 403 / 404 just flat be disallowed in rogue guild activities, but for 'normal smithing', let it all ride! If that rogue is going to invest in Elemental Lore for some benefit, let them get (and keep) that benefit.

Like Keith - would enjoy reading your thoughts, Rath. Hopefully the GMs could do something like this as a minor change while working the spells and lores. . .

Doug

<<<If that rogue is going to invest in Elemental Lore for some benefit, let them get (and keep) that benefit.>>>

Perhaps lores should also mitigate the EXP penalty for using 403/404. It's only fair. Investing in lores, probably at the expense of other useful skills, to better use spells that crush your exp gain, is a dubious "benefit".

~ GtG

How about a simple solution. Keep things as they are currently, but add some new picks. A pick with a modifier of 0.5 to encourage experienced smiths to open easy boxes. Then add some picks with modifiers up to 3.

Currently Vaalin has a modifier of 2.5 and a rank requirement of 50. Get a pick with a modifier of 3 needing 100 or 200 ranks. This would make sure people have to have invested TPs to use it and would allow experienced pickers to open high end boxes without locklore to drop their experience gain (A modifier of 3.0 would allow a smith with 303 ranks of picking and a dexterity bonus of 30 to open a lock difficulty of 1300). While this wouldn't open all boxes without locklore, it would cover the majority of boxes normally found from hunting capped areas.

As a side, pickers really should be able to stop 403 if someone else has cast it on them.

<How do you keep differentiation between smiths that get a significant fraction of experience from service provision and rogues that pick their own boxes? The current pick range and 403 implementation does that (at least in the level range 10-80>

I'm suggesting having a modifier of 3.0 to increase that range from 80-100. As for the differentiation between casually and heavily invested smiths, I think a rank requirement for the pick would work well. You only need 50 ranks to use vaalin, which seems a little low for this purpose, but needing 100 or better yet 200 ranks for the 3.0 modifier should alleviate this problem. Any smith going 2x or less wouldn't be able to use the pick until they are near enough capped.

If a smith has 202 ranks and a dex bonus of 30, this will put their limit at about 1000 without locklore. This means they'd be able to open a number of capped boxes, but not all without taking the experience hit. For a fully 2x skill, this sounds appropriate to me. Going 3x in any skill is used to uphunt or max out an area of training. Someone 2x should generally be able to hunt their level or in this case pick boxes from hunting at their level.

Personally, I don't know who the lore additions to 403/404 are ment to help... maybe those wimpy mages that think they're so great.

I certainly won't be getting any water lore until I run out of every other post cap lore there is. I save enough money from not having to pay the town locksmith that I can afford to replace the occasional broken pick and shaving a couple seconds off disarming time REALLY isn't worth the TP cost.

I do like the idea of adding new picks into the system with higher mods though. I really don't like the idea that there are so many boxes out there that cannot be picked without locklore or traplore

Starchitin


A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.