So, the Tehir language as presented in documentation is a cipher. If this is news to you and you like puzzles, stop reading this and go play with it: https://gswiki.play.net/Life_and_Being_in_the_Sea_of_Fire#Language
I've created a research page with my notes/observations so far: https://gswiki.play.net/Research:Tehir_Language
I'll be adding more to the expanded lexicon, and I encourage anyone who's interested to add/correct as desired. :D
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
MOURNE
INIQUITY
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/02/2018 03:15 AM CST
The "Ru-" prefix may be a past tense modifier. So "ru-izgohi" for instance is "escaped", but "ru-" could be read as "to-", so it might be signifying a verb.
I will work through my own notes later. I think the EU letter combination sometimes becomes O in common. T(eu)od is Goat. T(eu)r becomes God.
- Xorus' player
("Teuriz" is "godless" with the "l" sound silenced like in the "ll" situation, unless "iz" as a word part can be used as a negation.)
I will work through my own notes later. I think the EU letter combination sometimes becomes O in common. T(eu)od is Goat. T(eu)r becomes God.
- Xorus' player
("Teuriz" is "godless" with the "l" sound silenced like in the "ll" situation, unless "iz" as a word part can be used as a negation.)
MOURNE
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/02/2018 04:41 AM CST
>The "Ru-" prefix may be a past tense modifier. So "ru-izgohi" for instance is "escaped", but "ru-" could be read as "to-", so it might be signifying a verb.
I was seeing that as 'to-', and translated the first phrase example (Qi ru-teumi zhi huuj / We went to the park) literally as 'We to-gone the p??k' (with huuj appearing to not be literally 'park' so maybe it's another oddity, or maybe I'm missing another edge case).
>I will work through my own notes later. I think the EU letter combination sometimes becomes O in common. T(eu)od is Goat. T(eu)r becomes God.
>("Teuriz" is "godless" with the "l" sound silenced like in the "ll" situation, unless "iz" as a word part can be used as a negation.)
I've been seeing teuriz = godless by way of te(g)/u(o)/(d->e and dropped because too many vowels in a row)/r(l)/i(e)/z(ss), but it could be t(g)/eu(o)/(d)/r(l)/i(e)/z(ss) instead. 'God' would be teu, given the dropped extra vowel after D is encrypted. But it's possible O can also have an EU substitution... but so far I'm only seeing that coming up in conjunction with G, which seems to have some mixed t/te/tu action going on(I'm not sure where I saw the tu, now, and it's too late for me to brain properly).
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
I was seeing that as 'to-', and translated the first phrase example (Qi ru-teumi zhi huuj / We went to the park) literally as 'We to-gone the p??k' (with huuj appearing to not be literally 'park' so maybe it's another oddity, or maybe I'm missing another edge case).
>I will work through my own notes later. I think the EU letter combination sometimes becomes O in common. T(eu)od is Goat. T(eu)r becomes God.
>("Teuriz" is "godless" with the "l" sound silenced like in the "ll" situation, unless "iz" as a word part can be used as a negation.)
I've been seeing teuriz = godless by way of te(g)/u(o)/(d->e and dropped because too many vowels in a row)/r(l)/i(e)/z(ss), but it could be t(g)/eu(o)/(d)/r(l)/i(e)/z(ss) instead. 'God' would be teu, given the dropped extra vowel after D is encrypted. But it's possible O can also have an EU substitution... but so far I'm only seeing that coming up in conjunction with G, which seems to have some mixed t/te/tu action going on(I'm not sure where I saw the tu, now, and it's too late for me to brain properly).
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
JARHEAD
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/02/2018 05:19 PM CST
I see where you're going in trying to break down the roots of the Tehir language into the "common" (aka more gooder English version), but take a step back for a second. Picture yourself trying to learn the rules of the English language as if you've never heard English spoken nor seen it written. Now, tell me if you have a chance in hell of figuring out the "I before E, except after C rule". Or perhaps the "Darmok and Jilad at Tinagra" episode from Star Trek, Next Generation might be a better example.
I think the translation of the Tehir language shouldn't look at the rules of the language, because maybe there aren't any, or there aren't many. Also, there are 26 letters in the English alphabet, but there are literally hundreds of characters in some of the languages of the orient. The rules from one language can hardly apply to another.
Using Teuriz as an example, perhaps the word godless is the "literal" common translation, applied to resemble the definition in common. To the Tehir it could mean "One who doesn't believe in the power of wandering spirits" (because most Tehir, as per the official documentation, do not have specific deities, but they do believe in spirits).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for expanding the Tehir language, and I think what you guys are trying to do is great. I even went so far as to create my own expanded version (over 1000 new words, to include numbers and honorifics), but alas, it was all lost in a computer crash a few years ago, before it saw the light of day.
My only caution is, don't get hung up trying to stick to rules that may or may not be there. Be creative, and generalize, and, above all, have fun with it.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
I think the translation of the Tehir language shouldn't look at the rules of the language, because maybe there aren't any, or there aren't many. Also, there are 26 letters in the English alphabet, but there are literally hundreds of characters in some of the languages of the orient. The rules from one language can hardly apply to another.
Using Teuriz as an example, perhaps the word godless is the "literal" common translation, applied to resemble the definition in common. To the Tehir it could mean "One who doesn't believe in the power of wandering spirits" (because most Tehir, as per the official documentation, do not have specific deities, but they do believe in spirits).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for expanding the Tehir language, and I think what you guys are trying to do is great. I even went so far as to create my own expanded version (over 1000 new words, to include numbers and honorifics), but alas, it was all lost in a computer crash a few years ago, before it saw the light of day.
My only caution is, don't get hung up trying to stick to rules that may or may not be there. Be creative, and generalize, and, above all, have fun with it.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
HATESHI
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/02/2018 05:33 PM CST
Thanks for all of the work you've done to crack the cipher and for sharing it with everyone, MOURNE. It's a lot better knowing the basics of how it works so that new words added follow the original ruleset instead of arbitrary preference from multiple perspectives.
As one of those involved with the group of Tehir trying to establish its culture back in the early 2000s... I can definitely say that having so many disparate lines of thought of how a language should be spoken or written was one of the most challenging points of making something cohesive. The cipher's ingenuity is that it is universal for a primary Tehir dialect. And, of course, players who want to add their own words from their individual characters' backstories specific to their own tribe or clan are still very able to do so!
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
As one of those involved with the group of Tehir trying to establish its culture back in the early 2000s... I can definitely say that having so many disparate lines of thought of how a language should be spoken or written was one of the most challenging points of making something cohesive. The cipher's ingenuity is that it is universal for a primary Tehir dialect. And, of course, players who want to add their own words from their individual characters' backstories specific to their own tribe or clan are still very able to do so!
- Overlord EK
>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.
MOURNE
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/02/2018 06:02 PM CST
>Radeek's post
I get where you're coming from, and I've got no interest in telling anyone how to fantasy language. What I am interested in is that this is, very clearly, a cipher. It's literally an encryption method, and I'm only looking at it from an OOC perspective right now as a language puzzle. I'm calling attention to it so anyone who wants to a) figure out the puzzle themselves can do so and b) so people can compile their findings together and use them as they see fit. It's a tool in the toolbox for people to use in game if they want to... just like it's always been, since it was released years and years ago. Pointing out that there's a method behind the current Tehir language documentation doesn't change anything -- people can always use their imagination and do what feels right. No one should be stomping on anyone else's reasonable RP for the sake of this, or anything remotely similar.
>The cipher's ingenuity is that it is universal for a primary Tehir dialect. And, of course, players who want to add their own words from their individual characters' backstories specific to their own tribe or clan are still very able to do so! -EK
Precisely this. One of my character names is described as having a root word in "one of the dialects of the desert" that's actually from a Romani dialect. It sure doesn't fit in with this cipher. Much like the real world, I can imagine that there are many variations on our primary languages and there's nothing immersion-breaking about indicating that what we have documented isn't the entirety of what's in our rich game world, be they fantasy languages with structural rules that are exposed via their examples, or fantasy languages that are a bunch of disparate made-up words that sound cool and don't necessarily have any underlying connection.
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
I get where you're coming from, and I've got no interest in telling anyone how to fantasy language. What I am interested in is that this is, very clearly, a cipher. It's literally an encryption method, and I'm only looking at it from an OOC perspective right now as a language puzzle. I'm calling attention to it so anyone who wants to a) figure out the puzzle themselves can do so and b) so people can compile their findings together and use them as they see fit. It's a tool in the toolbox for people to use in game if they want to... just like it's always been, since it was released years and years ago. Pointing out that there's a method behind the current Tehir language documentation doesn't change anything -- people can always use their imagination and do what feels right. No one should be stomping on anyone else's reasonable RP for the sake of this, or anything remotely similar.
>The cipher's ingenuity is that it is universal for a primary Tehir dialect. And, of course, players who want to add their own words from their individual characters' backstories specific to their own tribe or clan are still very able to do so! -EK
Precisely this. One of my character names is described as having a root word in "one of the dialects of the desert" that's actually from a Romani dialect. It sure doesn't fit in with this cipher. Much like the real world, I can imagine that there are many variations on our primary languages and there's nothing immersion-breaking about indicating that what we have documented isn't the entirety of what's in our rich game world, be they fantasy languages with structural rules that are exposed via their examples, or fantasy languages that are a bunch of disparate made-up words that sound cool and don't necessarily have any underlying connection.
---
Walsor Gryhm says, "Hmm, a most impressive weapon of note. I'll give you 16 silver coins for it."
You think to yourself, "This deal is getting worse all the time."
JARHEAD
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/02/2018 07:19 PM CST
<I'm calling attention to it so anyone who wants to a) figure out the puzzle themselves can do so and b) so people can compile their findings together and use them as they see fit. It's a tool in the toolbox for people to use in game if they want to.
Please don't mistake my post as a criticism, I think what you're doing is fantastic and anything that creates opportunity for the Tehir is a good thing. Were I a few years younger and the mind as sharp as it was a decade (or two) ago I'd take a crack at that cipher myself. Unfortunately, these days I have to open my contacts list on my phone to remember my own number.
Keep doing what you're doing and good luck, I hope you crack it.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
Please don't mistake my post as a criticism, I think what you're doing is fantastic and anything that creates opportunity for the Tehir is a good thing. Were I a few years younger and the mind as sharp as it was a decade (or two) ago I'd take a crack at that cipher myself. Unfortunately, these days I have to open my contacts list on my phone to remember my own number.
Keep doing what you're doing and good luck, I hope you crack it.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
INIQUITY
Re: Tehir Language Cipher Decoding
02/03/2018 04:44 AM CST
It is as unambiguously a cipher as Orc and Troll. Unfortunately, the mapping is not a one-to-one function, so the rules are probably too complicated to make it into a translator script. There are dropped letters and vowel modifications in it, and spellings based on idiosyncratic pronunciations. There are some terms in the document where the literal translation is not the same as the Common word listed. The idiom for "heavens" in Tehir is "the sky" (feminine) or "night god" (male), so trying to literally say "heavens" in Tehir might sound like total nonsense to a native speaker. By analogy it would be like writing an unfamiliar English word in the Cyrillic alphabet and having a Russian read it.
The way I would interpret this in IC terms, since a cipher is too logically exacting to be realistic, is that Tehir is really a very distant dialect of Common with its own idioms. The pronunciations have drifted so much that speakers cannot tell they are using the same language, but the words themselves have not drifted much at all. Then if someone is trying to use this cipher to concoct Tehir words without using the Tehir language mechanic you plausibly say: "I can hardly understand what you are trying to say."
Likewise, if someone is "speaking in Tehir" having the cipher doesn't help, because you're not fluent. Written forms depend on a transliteration convention which isn't necessarily shared. Some words are only going to exist in the Tehir language and would become gibberish put through the cipher. Qahzumar could be based on resembling "w(h)ip"tails but it is unclear.* There should be some words that sound meaningless in Common. I was about to say the moons were but I was able to parse it. Lekem looks like Mdbdn unless you catch "eke" is a special character for "oo" so it is actually Moon. So even knowing the rules it is still difficult to reverse it because you have to spot the partition points.
- Xorus' player
* Possibly Q->W A->Y H->P Z->S U->I M->N A->Y R->T for Qazhumar = Wypsinyt = Whips-in-it because it is a scorpion/whiptail with tentacles for claws?
The way I would interpret this in IC terms, since a cipher is too logically exacting to be realistic, is that Tehir is really a very distant dialect of Common with its own idioms. The pronunciations have drifted so much that speakers cannot tell they are using the same language, but the words themselves have not drifted much at all. Then if someone is trying to use this cipher to concoct Tehir words without using the Tehir language mechanic you plausibly say: "I can hardly understand what you are trying to say."
Likewise, if someone is "speaking in Tehir" having the cipher doesn't help, because you're not fluent. Written forms depend on a transliteration convention which isn't necessarily shared. Some words are only going to exist in the Tehir language and would become gibberish put through the cipher. Qahzumar could be based on resembling "w(h)ip"tails but it is unclear.* There should be some words that sound meaningless in Common. I was about to say the moons were but I was able to parse it. Lekem looks like Mdbdn unless you catch "eke" is a special character for "oo" so it is actually Moon. So even knowing the rules it is still difficult to reverse it because you have to spot the partition points.
- Xorus' player
* Possibly Q->W A->Y H->P Z->S U->I M->N A->Y R->T for Qazhumar = Wypsinyt = Whips-in-it because it is a scorpion/whiptail with tentacles for claws?
