>Ever play a standard, 6-person (plus DM) D&D campaign?

No, I don't play other RPGs.

>I don't think I've ever heard any of my players complain that there's "too much" to draw upon.

The next storyline that incorporates all or as many of these groups as possible is going to be near impossible to follow.

<<<The next storyline that incorporates all or as many of these groups as possible is going to be near impossible to follow. >>>

The existence of a plethora of groups does not necessitate their inclusion in a single storyline. To the contrary, it opens up a wonderfully diverse palette with which to craft an interesting, engaging and believable storyline. Such a scenario needn't be complicated or bogged down. But the background gives it depth that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

~ GtG

>yes, I get it, you like the document and lack of editing.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/User:VANKRASN39

Barring one particular background this document is an additive document. For that ONE particular human background I can see this as a subtractive document, but said background also just got a capped hunting area devoted to their background so I do not think they have room to complain.

This isn't the sort of document your average new player is going to read. It's the sort of document that your average new player will see as a section of the wiki when they look up cultures. Given your obvious passion, dedication, and countless hours spent on said wiki, I'm baffled as to how this is too much to you (due to the nature of wikis, if you don't plug this information in I'm sure somebody else will.)

I love the document. I find it actually almost the opposite to documents like the Faendryl doc (I totally understand why people are crushed by having absolutely zero path to become palestra)and the cultural clothing document (which mostly begs to be ignored). This document opens doors rather than closing them.

I consider this one of the best lore releases Gemstone has ever seen. I'm even more glad because there's an events GM to back it up who I expect will roleplay with people who step into his sandbox rather than declare that they cannot be parts of these Orders.

>Given your obvious passion, dedication, and countless hours spent on said wiki, I'm baffled as to how this is too much to you

I hate long posts, so if you're like me, skip to the last 2 paragraphs.

I don't see what my work on the wiki has to do with my disliking the potential results I see of this document. I don't have to like everything about the game to still enjoy it or put a lot of work into helping the community. A lot of the work I do is in fact editing down pages to be clearer and less wordy/redundant, and making things easier to find through clearer article titles and categories so more time can be spent playing instead of searching. I usually do this in downtime at work and I had a lot of spare time last year at home since I couldn't engage in normal physical activity. I also spend a lot of times consolidating pages and marking useless ones for deletion. I have probably shrunk the Wiki as much as I've added to it.

If you're implying that because I work on the Wiki I have time to read this, you're wrong, I spend my free time doing things I enjoy and reading things I enjoy and this document did not make the cut. I gave it a shot this evening and no it's just not going to happen.

My question for those who love it is: could the same amount of depth added to the world be perceived with half the number of new groups created? Is it better to have more players in fewer groups to encourage a group dynamic, or so many groups that there might be only 1 or 2 people aligned to each? One of the arguments I've seen for not creating new cities is that players are "already too spread out." Couldn't the same be said for this? Will all of these groups be given storyline attention? Or will people be upset or feel left out because they chose the "wrong" group for their background.

For the GMs: is there a GM lead guru for lore in general to make sure rules and documents are consistent? There seems to be a major difference with what Kenstrom has said about choosing background in humans, and what Valyrka has decreed for Faendryl.

...I am not entirely certain that I follow.

This is a lore document, fleshing out things that exist in the setting. All of these groups are not going to open offices on Valeria street, but they, and likely many, many others, exist in the world, and a reasonably-informed being may have heard of them, or a well-traveled one encountered them.
____________________________________________________________________
Astari says, "With the work you are doing, your safety is catamount."

yes, I get it, you like the document and lack of editing.>>

Move on. No further responses necessary.

<<For the GMs: is there a GM lead guru for lore in general to make sure rules and documents are consistent? There seems to be a major difference with what Kenstrom has said about choosing background in humans, and what Valyrka has decreed for Faendryl.

There's oversight structure in place.

The Hall of Mages was noted back, but just because the document references information about various positions, does not mean that players who choose to have their character be a high ranking member of the Hall of Mages, for example, does not mean GM NPCs will recognize them. We have only one player character who's been recognized as a member of the Hall (beyond the mandated membership level), for example. Some elements of the document definitely exist to be informative for those who are curious about what's out there, and can incorporate experiences with the unassailable positions into their backgrounds ("I once met the kindest Archiver in Nydds, I mean, a really nice person!") And they can also serve as potential reward titles to give out, etc...etc. Some can be interpreted quite broadly, like belonging to one of the Voln organizations.

As someone who read over this document a number of times before it was released, it is definitely a big one! But, the amount of information isn't that much different if one were to read the Turamzzyrian Timeline from start to finish, for example. The human/Turamzzyrian cultures have absolutely benefited from enticing GMs who want to explore or add to them over the years, yours truly included. Unsurprisingly, I'm pretty engaged with a lot of the documentation for different races. I have an elven document underworks(25% written - three pages maybe? - that's been sitting in my purgatory bin of "Get this done already!), a giantkin document that my new giantkin awesome peeps have been waiting on since late Spring, and then of published docs, two half-krols, one krol/reiver, one River's Rest, one Turamzzyrian Empire (the love it or loath it Worship in the Empire), I was blessed with the opportunity to add additional material to the recent Faendryl doc (if you hate New Ta'Faendryl's description, that's on me), and written two Voln related docs, one of which helped create a new culture for Erithians. [There's probably one more I'm forgetting or something.]

In brief, lore creation boils down to the GMs on staff, their time and their interests (with kudos contributions from Wordsmiths), and not out of any malice or intended neglect of one race or culture or another. As a matter of quality, we definitely don't want anyone being forced to work on something or to rush it out, either. I think for those GMs who are passionate about their favorite areas, there's always a dozen documents like Kenstrom's waiting to be written or completed, but unfortunately, the time or circumstances simply have not allowed for their drafting or completion. But, I genuinely believe the more fascinating the fabric that makes up the game, the more interesting and entertaining the world can become for players and by players.

I remember when I first started playing nearly two decades ago and at first, I simply chose my race. It probably took me a year to stop saying stats and mechanics out loud, easing from "I'm 34.2k from leveling!" to "I've got just another 10.3k pages to read in my book!" to "Whisper: It's OOC to say that stuff outloud!" I turned my attention to the documents on the website and began to read, engage with the material, first finding a culture I liked, and then reading more, and learning the histories and lore. It wasn't something that happened for me overnight, but over the matter of months, and as I enjoyed doing it, I read more and more to learn about Elanthia. I enjoyed the game from month 1 without almost any lore, but man, as I dove deeper and deeper as I played, I loved it even more. I think that's probably very similar to how a lot of players get started, except for those who come to the game with a good background in roleplay or interest in game lore. The more breadth and color to the world at large, I think, definitely the better. As time continues, I guarantee that the other races will see similar expansions in one form or another (I'll even try and finish my elf doc, "The Rise of the Elven Empire," [WORKING TITLE]!).

Not everyone has to love everything produced, but I sincerely believe that Aang can save the world...I mean, I sincerely believe that virtually every addition to lore makes the game a better place.


GM Scribes

>>The Hall of Mages was noted back, but just because the document references information about various positions, does not mean that players who choose to have their character be a high ranking member of the Hall of Mages, for example, does not mean GM NPCs will recognize them.

>It seems that a major lesson was not learned at the Faendryl event that this situation should be prevented. I'd like to see disclaimers on all of the documents or in the specific factions if applicable warning people about this. There is nothing more uncomfortable I've seen as a player than what happened with Vathon and at the Faendryl event with GM NPCs not recognizing established players trying to play their characters earnestly, and it seems that staff is not taking what happened seriously.

I definitely agree with this.

If there are specific conditions that a GM must recognize (through NPCs, quests, or whatever) for any given character to be a recognized member of a documented official organization, be it the Palestra, Hall of Mages, or the Sheruvian Order, then that needs to be something that players are made aware of in no uncertain terms in documentation that gives detailed information about those organizations. If there are varying levels by which a character can be associated with the same organization while not fully recognized as a member - such as registered as a mage through the Hall of Mages but not as a Magister, known as a follower of Sheru but not an Acolyte of the Sheruvian Order - then that also needs to be conveyed.

The recent experiences with the Faendryl event and NPC Palestra is not the first time this has happened; it also happened over 10 years ago with several official religious groups. That also caused a lot of heartache, and a lot of debate both on and off the forums.

- Overlord EK

>You now regard Eorgina with a warm demeanor.

>Certainly the choices we have with titles somewhat limits our role playing options.

Titles are unrelated and do not have to be used at all.

>>The next storyline that incorporates all or as many of these groups as possible is going to be near impossible to follow.

This will never happen. In fact, writing this doc alone, spawned dozens and dozens of storyline hooks in my mind, and some of them were purposely placed in the document to add further detail/info for some upcoming storylines. But never were these groups documented to try to tie into some blockbuster storyline like a bad Hollywood producer. There is no right group, or wrong group, and people don't need to be tied into any group at all. It's definitely designed to be a supplemental document full of information for players to use to help in their background, or even future aspirations. (ie: I want to strive to become a Scribe in the Hall of Mages! I want to join the Southern Order of Voln!) Or maybe their character used to be in the Southern Order of Voln, and now they've turned from that, and belong to the Luukosian Order. Or maybe they have no ties at all, to any organization, but knew someone who did, or a family member did, or they had a conflict with X group, or hate X group, so many ways to spin every piece of the document.

>>I'd rather play with my GS time, plus my computer access has been limited as my laptop has been in the overhead bin. I read the forward, toc and Hall of Mages, I will only read the rest as necessary, like when someone says they are from such and such, and I think, "what is that?"

I do hope one day you'd finish reading it though. Even little piece at a time, might be worth it. :)

>>There's still a huge discrepancy in Faendryl lore between the official "day in the life of the average Faendryl" on the official site that describes Palestra guards as commonly accessible to the average Faendryl and the official stance that forbids players from calling their characters Palestra. That's not the fault of this document at all, but yes, the official party line on Palestra has literally held some players back from certain RP choices.

I'm not on the up and up on all of this, so I won't comment too much, but I do know the frustrations that occurred around Palestra, and this human document is designed not to repeat player frustrations. As a few folks mentioned, it might be in my best interest, and the players, to add a few notes or disclaimers to a few of the organizations. The ones that instantly scream of being more exclusive/elite, are upper echelons of the Hall of Mages, members of the Order of the Golvern Star, and the Imperial Blades. However, in all of these, there exists potential circumstances that can still allow for some measure of association, even if it's in the past. So I will look into something like this, because again, this document is designed to help build character histories, backgrounds, and roleplay opportunities, and room for character progression as well, from a title/membership standpoint. While some things will be exclusive due to the nature of the game and the group, I'll see what I can do about making some of those specific situations very clear upfront.

>>Barring one particular background this document is an additive document. For that ONE particular human background I can see this as a subtractive document, but said background also just got a capped hunting area devoted to their background so I do not think they have room to complain.

Which group is being subtracted from?

>>I consider this one of the best lore releases Gemstone has ever seen. I'm even more glad because there's an events GM to back it up who I expect will roleplay with people who step into his sandbox rather than declare that they cannot be parts of these Orders.

Thank you! Come play in the sand, the weather is nice!

-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru

I'll email you RE: the group in question, Kenstrom.

I think the core of the one objection here is the thought that this document is somehow akin to the Faendryl document, which basically denied a ton of people their roleplay and gave no potential for them to ever officially be recognized for their roleplay.

I have absolutely never gotten that impression from you. You lay out many many groups and I feel like you'll give people opportunities to follow through with them, whether by themselves or with GM support. I want to go play more Humans now, which seems like it was your goal from the beginning. Thanks again.