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Does all this mean there is no real push to bring on more coders?
From what I've read in this thread, the process for all applications is the same. The expectation on the GM side seems to be that applicants will wait around for years without feedback before potentially being interviewed and taken on.
Is that accurate? If not, what is the expectation?
Whatever it is, please at least publish it plainly for those who are considering applying. My preference would obviously be for the adoption of a different system, but I can't imagine that actually happening.
Someone might also consider having a separate process for coders, or at least those with experience coding MUDs. Review their applications as they come in, and then have those who seem competent sign an NDA and give them a manual for GSL. Or just let them see some code if there isn't a manual.
The expected training time for these people should be minimal. If you don't want to expend effort just give them projects to complete as a part of a trial period. If they can't handle it don't bring them on.
DARKDEED
GS4-ILDRAN
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/15/2010 11:20 PM CDT
IOI: 4
>Someone might also consider having a separate process for coders, or at least those with experience coding MUDs. Review their applications as they come in, and then have those who seem competent sign an NDA and give them a manual for GSL. Or just let them see some code if there isn't a manual.
>The expected training time for these people should be minimal. If you don't want to expend effort just give them projects to complete as a part of a trial period. If they can't handle it don't bring them on.
Actually, the expected training time for Dev GMs is significantly longer than for normal GMs. They have to learn all of the ins and outs of being a GM in addition to learning GSL, because a coder who can't create items or rooms or talk to players isn't very useful.
As well, while giving someone a manual and a hearty pat on the back will probably result in them producing some code, it's unlikely to be produced particularly quickly or turn out particularly well, and bad code is frequently worse than no code at all. Our coding environment is also likely to be quite different than what anyone has seen externally, and our requirements stricter except for those people who have worked in serious coding shops, so throwing people into the deep end is pretty much a bad idea all around.
- Ildran
>Someone might also consider having a separate process for coders, or at least those with experience coding MUDs. Review their applications as they come in, and then have those who seem competent sign an NDA and give them a manual for GSL. Or just let them see some code if there isn't a manual.
>The expected training time for these people should be minimal. If you don't want to expend effort just give them projects to complete as a part of a trial period. If they can't handle it don't bring them on.
Actually, the expected training time for Dev GMs is significantly longer than for normal GMs. They have to learn all of the ins and outs of being a GM in addition to learning GSL, because a coder who can't create items or rooms or talk to players isn't very useful.
As well, while giving someone a manual and a hearty pat on the back will probably result in them producing some code, it's unlikely to be produced particularly quickly or turn out particularly well, and bad code is frequently worse than no code at all. Our coding environment is also likely to be quite different than what anyone has seen externally, and our requirements stricter except for those people who have worked in serious coding shops, so throwing people into the deep end is pretty much a bad idea all around.
- Ildran
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 10:23 AM CDT
>> Our coding environment is also likely to be quite different than what anyone has seen externally, and our requirements stricter except for those people who have worked in serious coding shops, so throwing people into the deep end is pretty much a bad idea all around.
Well, as someone who has worked at serious coding shops ... if they can't handle it they aren't likely to be very useful anyway. It's a small team, I doubt you can really afford the time to train anyone up - or wouldn't be able to if you ran under a normal payment model for employees.
The point of the trial would be to see if their code was good or bad. If it's bad you don't need to use it and have only lost the time of reviewing it. If it's good you've gained a productive coder. It probably should be an assignment to code something that has already been done so the reviewer has a good sense of what's going on and can judge the solutions fairly. I've seen something similar done both ways, but given that you're not expecting production code and aren't paying for it going with a known problem seems best.
Then, after reviewing their code, you could think about training them as a GM. You could always put those who just can't handle it through the regular, slow process anyway. This would essentially be a filtering technique to capture those who could be contributing right away instead of having their applications languish for years.
This is, of course, in the alternative to a complete overhaul of the current system.
Maybe I'm not seeing the problem the same way. Creating a room or an item is very simple with most systems, at least for someone with any experience coding. Generally it takes a while to train those without experience, but that's not who we're talking about. I'm imagining that the time consuming part is learning the restrictions on GM action and the requirement for published content.
Well, as someone who has worked at serious coding shops ... if they can't handle it they aren't likely to be very useful anyway. It's a small team, I doubt you can really afford the time to train anyone up - or wouldn't be able to if you ran under a normal payment model for employees.
The point of the trial would be to see if their code was good or bad. If it's bad you don't need to use it and have only lost the time of reviewing it. If it's good you've gained a productive coder. It probably should be an assignment to code something that has already been done so the reviewer has a good sense of what's going on and can judge the solutions fairly. I've seen something similar done both ways, but given that you're not expecting production code and aren't paying for it going with a known problem seems best.
Then, after reviewing their code, you could think about training them as a GM. You could always put those who just can't handle it through the regular, slow process anyway. This would essentially be a filtering technique to capture those who could be contributing right away instead of having their applications languish for years.
This is, of course, in the alternative to a complete overhaul of the current system.
Maybe I'm not seeing the problem the same way. Creating a room or an item is very simple with most systems, at least for someone with any experience coding. Generally it takes a while to train those without experience, but that's not who we're talking about. I'm imagining that the time consuming part is learning the restrictions on GM action and the requirement for published content.
DRIZZT-12
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 01:17 PM CDT
One of the problems I see in your solution Darkdeed is that the manner in which you propose is giving out quite a many copies of Simu's private scripting/coding language., which is what is used for GemStone. I would hazard a guess that it is guarded, heavily, by having to sign a NDA (non-disclosure agreement). All the stories I've heard of friends having to sign NDA's for various companies is usually a rather long process in-and-of-itself.
If I personally were in charge of something such as this, I certainly wouldn't be giving out copies of that scripting language to just anyone that walks in the door and says they can code. You want to be guaranteed the candidate for DEV is going to be very trustworthy and won't just disappear after a month or two after acquiring such information.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
If I personally were in charge of something such as this, I certainly wouldn't be giving out copies of that scripting language to just anyone that walks in the door and says they can code. You want to be guaranteed the candidate for DEV is going to be very trustworthy and won't just disappear after a month or two after acquiring such information.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 01:34 PM CDT
>> One of the problems I see in your solution Darkdeed is that the manner in which you propose is giving out quite a many copies of Simu's private scripting/coding language., which is what is used for GemStone. I would hazard a guess that it is guarded, heavily, by having to sign a NDA (non-disclosure agreement). All the stories I've heard of friends having to sign NDA's for various companies is usually a rather long process in-and-of-itself.
I mentioned NDAs when first suggesting this. As for signing NDAs being a long procedure, you heard wrong.
I mentioned NDAs when first suggesting this. As for signing NDAs being a long procedure, you heard wrong.
WELCHA
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 01:39 PM CDT
>>As for signing NDAs being a long procedure, you heard wrong.
That actually entirely depends on the NDA and the person's access to things like notaries.
That aside, giving out a big chunk of proprietary information (which GSL is, it's one of their top advantages in the realm of text-based games), even under NDA, to someone you may not hire is a bad idea. If someone decides to leak it because you didn't hire them, or they got upset at you... It can be difficult, expensive, and time consuming to figure who leaked it, and even more so to go after that person. After it's out there.... Well, the damage is done really. It's more legal battles if you think someone else may be using it ($$$$) and even then, it can be difficult to prove that they're using your stuff if they do it right.
Ultimately, it's not a good idea to share that information unless they're someone that actually needs to know it beacuse you're fairly certain they'll be using it. NDAs, ultimately, are weak because of the expense of enforcement.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
That actually entirely depends on the NDA and the person's access to things like notaries.
That aside, giving out a big chunk of proprietary information (which GSL is, it's one of their top advantages in the realm of text-based games), even under NDA, to someone you may not hire is a bad idea. If someone decides to leak it because you didn't hire them, or they got upset at you... It can be difficult, expensive, and time consuming to figure who leaked it, and even more so to go after that person. After it's out there.... Well, the damage is done really. It's more legal battles if you think someone else may be using it ($$$$) and even then, it can be difficult to prove that they're using your stuff if they do it right.
Ultimately, it's not a good idea to share that information unless they're someone that actually needs to know it beacuse you're fairly certain they'll be using it. NDAs, ultimately, are weak because of the expense of enforcement.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 02:17 PM CDT
>> Ultimately, it's not a good idea to share that information unless they're someone that actually needs to know it beacuse you're fairly certain they'll be using it. NDAs, ultimately, are weak because of the expense of enforcement.
First, how many Dev applicants with "real" coding experience do you think there are? My guess is that the number is quite low. That's based solely on the size of the potential applicant pool (people who play GS). I would actually be quite surprised if there were ANY current applicants that fit the requirements I would suggest.
Second, given the lamentations about turnover, how big of a threat do you see applicants being as compared to disgruntled ex-employees? The dangers are the same from both. Maybe this came down to the number of applicants you thought would be participating?
Third, of course NDAs are difficult to enforce. But they are all that protects IP worth many orders of magnitude more than GSL. If you are too paranoid about protecting your IP you can't make any progress. There's a balance that needs to be struck between risk and growth. You seem to think that this is too much risk versus the potential reward of more competent coders. I don't share that opinion. Ultimately it's a business decision.
Last, do you really think that the syntax for GSL is such a huge advantage in the realm of text-based games? I could see how you might think that the interpreter is very valuable, but the syntax? Clearly this is another subjective topic as there is no real way to measure its value.
If exposing GSL's syntax is the problem, just ask for code in a language that isn't related to what they will actually be doing. Worst case, just ask for code they have already written. Obviously it would be a much worse indicator of their actual performance, but at least it would help filter people out.
First, how many Dev applicants with "real" coding experience do you think there are? My guess is that the number is quite low. That's based solely on the size of the potential applicant pool (people who play GS). I would actually be quite surprised if there were ANY current applicants that fit the requirements I would suggest.
Second, given the lamentations about turnover, how big of a threat do you see applicants being as compared to disgruntled ex-employees? The dangers are the same from both. Maybe this came down to the number of applicants you thought would be participating?
Third, of course NDAs are difficult to enforce. But they are all that protects IP worth many orders of magnitude more than GSL. If you are too paranoid about protecting your IP you can't make any progress. There's a balance that needs to be struck between risk and growth. You seem to think that this is too much risk versus the potential reward of more competent coders. I don't share that opinion. Ultimately it's a business decision.
Last, do you really think that the syntax for GSL is such a huge advantage in the realm of text-based games? I could see how you might think that the interpreter is very valuable, but the syntax? Clearly this is another subjective topic as there is no real way to measure its value.
If exposing GSL's syntax is the problem, just ask for code in a language that isn't related to what they will actually be doing. Worst case, just ask for code they have already written. Obviously it would be a much worse indicator of their actual performance, but at least it would help filter people out.
DRIZZT-12
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 02:25 PM CDT
<<Last, do you really think that the syntax for GSL is such a huge advantage in the realm of text-based games? I could see how you might think that the interpreter is very valuable, but the syntax? Clearly this is another subjective topic as there is no real way to measure its value.
Considering GemStone is the only text-based game that has lasted 20+ years and made the company a profit from it, yes.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
Considering GemStone is the only text-based game that has lasted 20+ years and made the company a profit from it, yes.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
WELCHA
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 02:37 PM CDT
>>First, how many Dev applicants with "real" coding experience do you think there are? My guess is that the number is quite low. That's based solely on the size of the potential applicant pool (people who play GS). I would actually be quite surprised if there were ANY current applicants that fit the requirements I would suggest.
You should consider yourself surprised, then.
>>Second, given the lamentations about turnover, how big of a threat do you see applicants being as compared to disgruntled ex-employees? The dangers are the same from both. Maybe this came down to the number of applicants you thought would be participating?
Turnover != disgruntled ex-employees. To my knoweledge, Simutronics has only outright fired a single GS employee. Turnover for GemStone generally comes down to someone who has lost interest or simply doesn't have the time to devote to it anymore. Neither of those cases lead to disgruntled people.
>>Third, of course NDAs are difficult to enforce. But they are all that protects IP worth many orders of magnitude more than GSL. If you are too paranoid about protecting your IP you can't make any progress. There's a balance that needs to be struck between risk and growth. You seem to think that this is too much risk versus the potential reward of more competent coders. I don't share that opinion. Ultimately it's a business decision.
You're right, it is a business decision. One they seem to have made.
>>Last, do you really think that the syntax for GSL is such a huge advantage in the realm of text-based games? I could see how you might think that the interpreter is very valuable, but the syntax? Clearly this is another subjective topic as there is no real way to measure its value.
As someone else already pointed out. Simutronics is the only company I know of that has produced a text based mmo that not only has survived for 20 years, but has made at least enough money enough to run itself... That said, it's not a very large step from the syntax of a programing language to writing an interpreter that can run it.
>>If exposing GSL's syntax is the problem, just ask for code in a language that isn't related to what they will actually be doing. Worst case, just ask for code they have already written. Obviously it would be a much worse indicator of their actual performance, but at least it would help filter people out.
This would require someone on staff to know a language in common with the applicant. A language that, most likely, has nothing to do with their job and would be a waste of resources for them to learn simply to assess the value of a job applicant.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
You should consider yourself surprised, then.
>>Second, given the lamentations about turnover, how big of a threat do you see applicants being as compared to disgruntled ex-employees? The dangers are the same from both. Maybe this came down to the number of applicants you thought would be participating?
Turnover != disgruntled ex-employees. To my knoweledge, Simutronics has only outright fired a single GS employee. Turnover for GemStone generally comes down to someone who has lost interest or simply doesn't have the time to devote to it anymore. Neither of those cases lead to disgruntled people.
>>Third, of course NDAs are difficult to enforce. But they are all that protects IP worth many orders of magnitude more than GSL. If you are too paranoid about protecting your IP you can't make any progress. There's a balance that needs to be struck between risk and growth. You seem to think that this is too much risk versus the potential reward of more competent coders. I don't share that opinion. Ultimately it's a business decision.
You're right, it is a business decision. One they seem to have made.
>>Last, do you really think that the syntax for GSL is such a huge advantage in the realm of text-based games? I could see how you might think that the interpreter is very valuable, but the syntax? Clearly this is another subjective topic as there is no real way to measure its value.
As someone else already pointed out. Simutronics is the only company I know of that has produced a text based mmo that not only has survived for 20 years, but has made at least enough money enough to run itself... That said, it's not a very large step from the syntax of a programing language to writing an interpreter that can run it.
>>If exposing GSL's syntax is the problem, just ask for code in a language that isn't related to what they will actually be doing. Worst case, just ask for code they have already written. Obviously it would be a much worse indicator of their actual performance, but at least it would help filter people out.
This would require someone on staff to know a language in common with the applicant. A language that, most likely, has nothing to do with their job and would be a waste of resources for them to learn simply to assess the value of a job applicant.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:00 PM CDT
>> This would require someone on staff to know a language in common with the applicant. A language that, most likely, has nothing to do with their job and would be a waste of resources for them to learn simply to assess the value of a job applicant.
I'm not even sure how this is a consideration in your mind. Given that earlier in your post you implied that you would fit these criteria I am amazed that you think that two competent coders can't find a language in common. Maybe if you go to the extreme of finding someone who is a self-taught LISP coder or the like. Also, how hard do you find it to understand what's going on in a language you don't know? Maybe our definitions of competent are drastically different.
>> Turnover != disgruntled ex-employees. To my knoweledge, Simutronics has only outright fired a single GS employee. Turnover for GemStone generally comes down to someone who has lost interest or simply doesn't have the time to devote to it anymore. Neither of those cases lead to disgruntled people.
You're assuming that everyone they don't hire is disgruntled as well and then relying on a generalization to assume that there are no disgruntled ex-employees. I agree that the likelihood is higher, but this wouldn't deter me from making a change.
>> You're right, it is a business decision. One they seem to have made.
That isn't the case at all. All we know is that they are using a different system. We have no way to know what has been considered in the past or by who. Your current argument applies equally to everything that isn't being currently done.
>> As someone else already pointed out. Simutronics is the only company I know of that has produced a text based mmo that not only has survived for 20 years, but has made at least enough money enough to run itself... That said, it's not a very large step from the syntax of a programing language to writing an interpreter that can run it.
You're attributing that success to GSL. I would attribute it to other things, but again, this is all subjective. Even assuming that GSL is the sole reason for GS's past and future achievements, the other arguments still stand.
Since you've represented yourself as a highly skilled coder who has a standing application, what do you think about showing the current GMs what you could do with GSL? Would you sell the manual to the highest bidder if they subsequently didn't hire you? What could you have done for the game if you had been coding for the number of hours per week you volunteered for the time your application has been sitting there?
Assuming you still don't like my suggestions, what would you do? You might not think there is a problem with the current system, but assuming there is one and it is that there aren't enough coders being brought on, how would you fix it?
I'm not even sure how this is a consideration in your mind. Given that earlier in your post you implied that you would fit these criteria I am amazed that you think that two competent coders can't find a language in common. Maybe if you go to the extreme of finding someone who is a self-taught LISP coder or the like. Also, how hard do you find it to understand what's going on in a language you don't know? Maybe our definitions of competent are drastically different.
>> Turnover != disgruntled ex-employees. To my knoweledge, Simutronics has only outright fired a single GS employee. Turnover for GemStone generally comes down to someone who has lost interest or simply doesn't have the time to devote to it anymore. Neither of those cases lead to disgruntled people.
You're assuming that everyone they don't hire is disgruntled as well and then relying on a generalization to assume that there are no disgruntled ex-employees. I agree that the likelihood is higher, but this wouldn't deter me from making a change.
>> You're right, it is a business decision. One they seem to have made.
That isn't the case at all. All we know is that they are using a different system. We have no way to know what has been considered in the past or by who. Your current argument applies equally to everything that isn't being currently done.
>> As someone else already pointed out. Simutronics is the only company I know of that has produced a text based mmo that not only has survived for 20 years, but has made at least enough money enough to run itself... That said, it's not a very large step from the syntax of a programing language to writing an interpreter that can run it.
You're attributing that success to GSL. I would attribute it to other things, but again, this is all subjective. Even assuming that GSL is the sole reason for GS's past and future achievements, the other arguments still stand.
Since you've represented yourself as a highly skilled coder who has a standing application, what do you think about showing the current GMs what you could do with GSL? Would you sell the manual to the highest bidder if they subsequently didn't hire you? What could you have done for the game if you had been coding for the number of hours per week you volunteered for the time your application has been sitting there?
Assuming you still don't like my suggestions, what would you do? You might not think there is a problem with the current system, but assuming there is one and it is that there aren't enough coders being brought on, how would you fix it?
KRAKII
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:08 PM CDT
Unfortunately, I think the file I have of it is password protected (so I would need to run the DOS version of the program in order to access it, but that version does not run in WinXP) but I think my proudest moment for programming was with the DOS version of the client management database we use here at the office.
Basically, the program boiled down to:
And then there were like two lines of comments.
.
I printed it out and showed it to my father (who was a programmer over here at Goddard Space Flight Center for NASA for about thirty-some years) and brother (who took his degree in Computer Science) and got handshakes from both of them. :)
(But yeah, the actual Libraries were where all the funky stuff happened. Those... those took me a while. But it was a cumulative process, so I was always adding stuff as I went along.)
Basically, the program boiled down to:
| Load TaxLibrary |
| Load UtilLibrary |
| Load PrintLibrary |
| Load MenuLibrary |
| Run TopMenu |
And then there were like two lines of comments.
.
I printed it out and showed it to my father (who was a programmer over here at Goddard Space Flight Center for NASA for about thirty-some years) and brother (who took his degree in Computer Science) and got handshakes from both of them. :)
(But yeah, the actual Libraries were where all the funky stuff happened. Those... those took me a while. But it was a cumulative process, so I was always adding stuff as I went along.)
UNINVITED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:11 PM CDT
>To my knoweledge, Simutronics has only outright fired a single GS employee.
No, its far more than one. Although I believe "let go" is the proper terminology.
Hugs,
~Jay
"Seriously, when I see "Uninvited" cartoon hearts flutter around my head."
No, its far more than one. Although I believe "let go" is the proper terminology.
Hugs,
~Jay
"Seriously, when I see "Uninvited" cartoon hearts flutter around my head."
WELCHA
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:15 PM CDT
>>Since you've represented yourself as a highly skilled coder who has a standing application, what do you think about showing the current GMs what you could do with GSL? Would you sell the manual to the highest bidder if they subsequently didn't hire you? What could you have done for the game if you had been coding for the number of hours per week you volunteered for the time your application has been sitting there?
If they wanted me to, obviously I would do it. That doesn't mean I think it is a good idea for them to want everyone to. What I would do is not necessarily representative of what other applicants would do. Just because I or someone else represents themselves as a highly skilled coder doesn't mean we are. In this case, I think I am. However, Simutronics has no way to determine that simply from the application. I can say whatever I want on the application and, with only that to go on, they have no way to confirm it is true. So your criteria of only "highly skilled coders" get to do this route... Well, there's probably plenty of people out there who think they are or would represent themselves as being so just to get the advantage and, in fact, are not.
>>Assuming you still don't like my suggestions, what would you do? You might not think there is a problem with the current system, but assuming there is one and it is that there aren't enough coders being brought on, how would you fix it?
I'd leave the system alone, in general. Sure, it'd be great to get some timelines or ideas, but that's not necessarily feasible. As they've stated multiple times, the biggest time sink is training and they do it in groups. Training in groups with a small company makes sense. You invest the minimum number of man hours/people for the maximum amount of gain. However, because they do this training in groups, it means they hire in groups.
Long wait times to get hired isn't necessarily unusual. In my current job, it took nearly 2 years from application, to being trained and fully on-board. A minimum of a year of that was between application and hearing anything about even a possibility of being hired. Six months of it was the interview and background check process...
In short, if you want it, wait for it.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
If they wanted me to, obviously I would do it. That doesn't mean I think it is a good idea for them to want everyone to. What I would do is not necessarily representative of what other applicants would do. Just because I or someone else represents themselves as a highly skilled coder doesn't mean we are. In this case, I think I am. However, Simutronics has no way to determine that simply from the application. I can say whatever I want on the application and, with only that to go on, they have no way to confirm it is true. So your criteria of only "highly skilled coders" get to do this route... Well, there's probably plenty of people out there who think they are or would represent themselves as being so just to get the advantage and, in fact, are not.
>>Assuming you still don't like my suggestions, what would you do? You might not think there is a problem with the current system, but assuming there is one and it is that there aren't enough coders being brought on, how would you fix it?
I'd leave the system alone, in general. Sure, it'd be great to get some timelines or ideas, but that's not necessarily feasible. As they've stated multiple times, the biggest time sink is training and they do it in groups. Training in groups with a small company makes sense. You invest the minimum number of man hours/people for the maximum amount of gain. However, because they do this training in groups, it means they hire in groups.
Long wait times to get hired isn't necessarily unusual. In my current job, it took nearly 2 years from application, to being trained and fully on-board. A minimum of a year of that was between application and hearing anything about even a possibility of being hired. Six months of it was the interview and background check process...
In short, if you want it, wait for it.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
DRIZZT-12
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:21 PM CDT
Another facet is that it isn't just the language itself that you need to know and learn. But you have to learn how everything interacts with each other behind the scenes along with the language.
Just proving that you can write good code for something specific helps very little if you don't know how that code is going to mesh with what is already there system-wise.
There are some systems in the game that even great coders currently on staff have said they are very hesitant to even touch the code for. Hiding, lockers, etc.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
Just proving that you can write good code for something specific helps very little if you don't know how that code is going to mesh with what is already there system-wise.
There are some systems in the game that even great coders currently on staff have said they are very hesitant to even touch the code for. Hiding, lockers, etc.
-Adam
"You guys took all the pretty places." ~Anonymous
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:35 PM CDT
>> Long wait times to get hired isn't necessarily unusual.
Are you working as a software engineer?
If so, I can use my experience getting hired in the industry as a counter example. It took me ~1 week to go from application sent to being at work for my first job out of graduate school. My other friends had similar experiences, maybe not that extreme, but certainly not a year. How could they expect anyone they would want to hire to be without a job for a year? That might be different in the economy we face now of course.
You specifically mentioned a background check. Did they really not say you were hired conditioned on your passing the background check? That's the procedure I've heard of. Maybe things are different where you got hired, but that's what happened to the people I know who went to DoD contractors.
>> So your criteria of only "highly skilled coders" get to do this route... Well, there's probably plenty of people out there who think they are or would represent themselves as being so just to get the advantage and, in fact, are not.
My criteria was professional experience as a coder and having coded MUDs before. If you're worried about them having lied on their resume just ask them some questions. It should be apparent.
>> I'd leave the system alone, in general.
That obviously isn't a solution. Assuming there is a problem, what would you do to fix it?
Are you working as a software engineer?
If so, I can use my experience getting hired in the industry as a counter example. It took me ~1 week to go from application sent to being at work for my first job out of graduate school. My other friends had similar experiences, maybe not that extreme, but certainly not a year. How could they expect anyone they would want to hire to be without a job for a year? That might be different in the economy we face now of course.
You specifically mentioned a background check. Did they really not say you were hired conditioned on your passing the background check? That's the procedure I've heard of. Maybe things are different where you got hired, but that's what happened to the people I know who went to DoD contractors.
>> So your criteria of only "highly skilled coders" get to do this route... Well, there's probably plenty of people out there who think they are or would represent themselves as being so just to get the advantage and, in fact, are not.
My criteria was professional experience as a coder and having coded MUDs before. If you're worried about them having lied on their resume just ask them some questions. It should be apparent.
>> I'd leave the system alone, in general.
That obviously isn't a solution. Assuming there is a problem, what would you do to fix it?
TSORAN
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 03:58 PM CDT
| Another facet is that it isn't just the language itself that you need to know and learn. But you have to learn how everything interacts with each other behind the scenes along with the language. |
BINGO
You hit the nail on the head right there. GSL isn't hard to learn. It's a bit esoteric and highly tailored to its purpose, but it's not difficult for anyone with any experience in programing ANY language to learn.
Learning how to interact with 20+ years worth of existing GemStone systems is where all the training comes to play. That's why it takes so long to train both CE and Dev GMs -- there's so much about the game systems you have to learn. The language is... just another language.
And, speaking as someone who has gone through their training recently, the quality of the training is excellent. It's as if they've been perfecting that process for 20 years. Oh, wait, they have. :)
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 04:05 PM CDT
>> Another facet is that it isn't just the language itself that you need to know and learn. But you have to learn how everything interacts with each other behind the scenes along with the language.
>> Learning how to interact with 20+ years worth of existing GemStone systems is where all the training comes to play.
This is the same at every established software company. Unless you're at a brand-new startup without any prior code, you're going to have to learn the system. The process is meant to find people who can do that successfully, just like every other hiring process.
>> Learning how to interact with 20+ years worth of existing GemStone systems is where all the training comes to play.
This is the same at every established software company. Unless you're at a brand-new startup without any prior code, you're going to have to learn the system. The process is meant to find people who can do that successfully, just like every other hiring process.
PETERSONP1
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/16/2010 04:19 PM CDT
>>I mentioned NDAs when first suggesting this. As for signing NDAs being a long procedure, you heard wrong.
It's true. It just takes 5 seconds to sign away the rights to any creative thought you've ever had :(.
Ever.
A portly wrinkled gnoll says, "Nngh."
It's true. It just takes 5 seconds to sign away the rights to any creative thought you've ever had :(.
Ever.
A portly wrinkled gnoll says, "Nngh."
DOUGHAL
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/17/2010 05:53 PM CDT
I wasn't hired as a coder, just a Sys Admin, but at my previous company which was a Software Development firm, I did have to sign an NDA and go through a background check. These days many companies add a Credit Check to the mix, which I'm thankful that wasn't the case at the time. (took me years to fix my credit after an old roommate wiped me out...)
My experience of the process was that it wasn't too painful. Didn't take more than a couple weeks from interview to starting work. I wasn't a coder, but the process wasn't any different for them.
My experience of the process was that it wasn't too painful. Didn't take more than a couple weeks from interview to starting work. I wasn't a coder, but the process wasn't any different for them.
GS4-ZYLLAH
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/17/2010 09:27 PM CDT
<<I think maybe you're underestimating the sheer amount of learning new GMs need to do. - Auchand
Whew! I'll underline this part. The sheer amount of information you have to learn in a relatively short period of time is mind boggling. There were several points during my training when I thought my head was going to explode into a million itty bitty pieces. And that's even though I considered myself to be a very knowledgeable player.
<<If you want to get your foot in the door, I've always been a strong proponent of applying to be a Host first and then working your way up. - Solomon
As the Host Coordinator I'll add to that though, only apply to be a Host if you really actually want to be a Host. Being a Host first definitely makes the transition to being a GM easier. You have all that assist experience so that you're already familiar with a lot of the types of issues that pop up and their resolutions.
However, if you are only applying to be a Host as a stepping stone to being a GM and really are not interested in being a Host, just put in a GM app directly. Otherwise it wastes the Host Team's time putting in all that training on someone who doesn't even really want to be there.
Just like when they hire GMs they are looking for people who plan to be a GM for a long time to make the training worth it, the same is true for Hosts. It's a drain on our resources when Hosts don't stick around very long because they're hired as GMs right away or quit when they don't think they're hired as a GM fast enough.
Many of the Hosts on our Host Team are people who aren't even looking to become GMs. They like being Hosts but don't have the time for, or interest in, moving up.
<<You specifically mentioned a background check. Did they really not say you were hired conditioned on your passing the background check? - DARKDEED
I'd imagine that varies by company, government entity, and organization. A friend of mine went through a horrendously extensive background check that took about 2-3 months. They did not hire people into positions until after the checks were done on their top candidates.
Whew! I'll underline this part. The sheer amount of information you have to learn in a relatively short period of time is mind boggling. There were several points during my training when I thought my head was going to explode into a million itty bitty pieces. And that's even though I considered myself to be a very knowledgeable player.
<<If you want to get your foot in the door, I've always been a strong proponent of applying to be a Host first and then working your way up. - Solomon
As the Host Coordinator I'll add to that though, only apply to be a Host if you really actually want to be a Host. Being a Host first definitely makes the transition to being a GM easier. You have all that assist experience so that you're already familiar with a lot of the types of issues that pop up and their resolutions.
However, if you are only applying to be a Host as a stepping stone to being a GM and really are not interested in being a Host, just put in a GM app directly. Otherwise it wastes the Host Team's time putting in all that training on someone who doesn't even really want to be there.
Just like when they hire GMs they are looking for people who plan to be a GM for a long time to make the training worth it, the same is true for Hosts. It's a drain on our resources when Hosts don't stick around very long because they're hired as GMs right away or quit when they don't think they're hired as a GM fast enough.
Many of the Hosts on our Host Team are people who aren't even looking to become GMs. They like being Hosts but don't have the time for, or interest in, moving up.
<<You specifically mentioned a background check. Did they really not say you were hired conditioned on your passing the background check? - DARKDEED
I'd imagine that varies by company, government entity, and organization. A friend of mine went through a horrendously extensive background check that took about 2-3 months. They did not hire people into positions until after the checks were done on their top candidates.
WELCHA
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/17/2010 09:32 PM CDT
>>You specifically mentioned a background check. Did they really not say you were hired conditioned on your passing the background check? - DARKDEED
>>I'd imagine that varies by company, government entity, and organization. A friend of mine went through a horrendously extensive background check that took about 2-3 months. They did not hire people into positions until after the checks were done on their top candidates. - Zyllah
Yes, I was offered a job conditional on the completion of an extensive background check which took approximately 6 months. Failure to pass that check would have resulted in the job offer being withdrawn and me not having the job.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
>>I'd imagine that varies by company, government entity, and organization. A friend of mine went through a horrendously extensive background check that took about 2-3 months. They did not hire people into positions until after the checks were done on their top candidates. - Zyllah
Yes, I was offered a job conditional on the completion of an extensive background check which took approximately 6 months. Failure to pass that check would have resulted in the job offer being withdrawn and me not having the job.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
DARKDEED
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/17/2010 10:59 PM CDT
>> Yes, I was offered a job conditional on the completion of an extensive background check which took approximately 6 months. Failure to pass that check would have resulted in the job offer being withdrawn and me not having the job.
I take it that you didn't answer my question about being a software engineer because that you aren't one.
Does having a better understanding of the limited applicant pool I was talking about change your mind? How many people do you think fit the requirements I gave? How many of those do you think play GS? How many of those do you think would be willing to spend their free time coding to make someone else money when that's what they do for a living?
Regardless, the sense I am getting is that the GMs don't think there is a problem with how few coders there are right now. There isn't any point in making suggestions for improvement if the people who review and implement changes don't see a need for them.
This is the point I tried to make with my first post. It isn't a lack of applications, it's that the GMs are fine with how things are going. Whether it's because they think enough development is being done or because they don't want to change the current system we can't really know.
I want to emphasize that someone with professional coding experience, a masters in computer science, and experience coding MUDs couldn't successfully volunteer time to improve GS. The difficulties pointed out were signing an NDA, learning GSL, learning the system, and learning to GM. As Tsoran acknowledged, learning GSL isn't an issue for someone who knows how to code. Signing an NDA takes almost no time at all. Learning complex systems is just a part of coding, something that every job requires. Do you think those obstacles are so large that accepting that person's time just isn't worth it? What about reading their application? Responding to their emails?
Maybe that's what the current GMs experienced, but that shouldn't mean that the system can't change.
I take it that you didn't answer my question about being a software engineer because that you aren't one.
Does having a better understanding of the limited applicant pool I was talking about change your mind? How many people do you think fit the requirements I gave? How many of those do you think play GS? How many of those do you think would be willing to spend their free time coding to make someone else money when that's what they do for a living?
Regardless, the sense I am getting is that the GMs don't think there is a problem with how few coders there are right now. There isn't any point in making suggestions for improvement if the people who review and implement changes don't see a need for them.
This is the point I tried to make with my first post. It isn't a lack of applications, it's that the GMs are fine with how things are going. Whether it's because they think enough development is being done or because they don't want to change the current system we can't really know.
I want to emphasize that someone with professional coding experience, a masters in computer science, and experience coding MUDs couldn't successfully volunteer time to improve GS. The difficulties pointed out were signing an NDA, learning GSL, learning the system, and learning to GM. As Tsoran acknowledged, learning GSL isn't an issue for someone who knows how to code. Signing an NDA takes almost no time at all. Learning complex systems is just a part of coding, something that every job requires. Do you think those obstacles are so large that accepting that person's time just isn't worth it? What about reading their application? Responding to their emails?
Maybe that's what the current GMs experienced, but that shouldn't mean that the system can't change.
WELCHA
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/18/2010 07:36 AM CDT
>>I take it that you didn't answer my question about being a software engineer because that you aren't one.
No, I didn't answer that question because I already had. My "job" changes every couple years on the specifics of what duties I am performing, so right now I am not doing software development (more system admin and software testing). I am, however, a software engineerer by degree, training, certification, and job experience.
The reason I didn't dig into the rest of the post is, frankly, because I didn't feel like it. We disagree, I accept that. I've stated why I disagree with you and don't really want to go 20 rounds on it.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
No, I didn't answer that question because I already had. My "job" changes every couple years on the specifics of what duties I am performing, so right now I am not doing software development (more system admin and software testing). I am, however, a software engineerer by degree, training, certification, and job experience.
The reason I didn't dig into the rest of the post is, frankly, because I didn't feel like it. We disagree, I accept that. I've stated why I disagree with you and don't really want to go 20 rounds on it.
- Andreas
EES Website: http://www.gsranger.net/
Foraging Galore: http://www.gsranger.net/guides/foraging/
PRO Resources: http://www.gsmeetinghalls.com/
Don't feed the troll, it only makes him worse.
KRAKII
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/18/2010 08:54 AM CDT
<background checks> -- Various
Twice now I've been one of the background contacts for one of the guys with whom I work on the High Adventure Committee for my local council of BSA: once when he was transitioning from a position at State to the FBI, and again when he retired and got re-hired to the same shop as a contractor.
So the interviewer had the standard questions, how long have you known him, do you know his family, et cetera. Guy's got two daughters and a son; the boy was in the Navy (or something) but the two girls were going to college.
"Have you ever heard him complain about money issues, or express a need for more money?"
"Weren't you listening? I just said he's got two kids in college, and doing that around the D.C. area? Of course he's complaining about money!"
She chuckled.
Twice now I've been one of the background contacts for one of the guys with whom I work on the High Adventure Committee for my local council of BSA: once when he was transitioning from a position at State to the FBI, and again when he retired and got re-hired to the same shop as a contractor.
So the interviewer had the standard questions, how long have you known him, do you know his family, et cetera. Guy's got two daughters and a son; the boy was in the Navy (or something) but the two girls were going to college.
"Have you ever heard him complain about money issues, or express a need for more money?"
"Weren't you listening? I just said he's got two kids in college, and doing that around the D.C. area? Of course he's complaining about money!"
She chuckled.
SUNDYN2
Re: A Player's Plea for Dev Applicants
06/18/2010 10:28 AM CDT
>>>We disagree, I accept that. I've stated why I disagree with you and don't really want to go 20 rounds on it. -WELCHA
Whoa whoa whoa! That's not how it's supposed to go, sir. You are hereby banned from the GoS folder in the "Societies" topic, (note: currently unreadable).
Whoa whoa whoa! That's not how it's supposed to go, sir. You are hereby banned from the GoS folder in the "Societies" topic, (note: currently unreadable).
