HEALERRICHIE
Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/25/2017 03:00 AM CDT
I remember back in the day you used to have to have brawling in order to get DS while using a bow. I am wondering has that changed? Do I get DS from ranged weapons like if I was 1x in a weapon like with any other weapon?
I am level 5 Empath with 1x Ranged Weapons and 2x Perception and was wanting to make sure my defensive stance DS was going to go up as I level up.
Thanks for your reply.
ARCHSENEX
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/25/2017 06:39 AM CDT
short answer is yes.
https://gswiki.play.net/Defensive_strength
lots under the hood to look at. invest in dodging.
RATHBONER
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/25/2017 07:30 AM CDT
>I remember back in the day you used to have to have brawling in order to get DS while using a bow. I am wondering has that changed? Do I get DS from ranged weapons like if I was 1x in a weapon like with any other weapon?
Sort of, but it has its own formula. (The Art of the Bow article on the wiki has one thats close but I think its wrong unless you have typical ranger training, however I haven't used ranged mechanics for about 10 years and its possible they've been tweaked)
>I am level 5 Empath with 1x Ranged Weapons and 2x Perception and was wanting to make sure my defensive stance DS was going to go up as I level up.
Those are the skills you need to train, but don't neglect your spells. That's where a lot of your DS is.
>invest in dodging.
Post-cap for an empath. Get to 3x spells first, but then dodging is the thing to train if extra DS is what you want at that point.
Sort of, but it has its own formula. (The Art of the Bow article on the wiki has one thats close but I think its wrong unless you have typical ranger training, however I haven't used ranged mechanics for about 10 years and its possible they've been tweaked)
>I am level 5 Empath with 1x Ranged Weapons and 2x Perception and was wanting to make sure my defensive stance DS was going to go up as I level up.
Those are the skills you need to train, but don't neglect your spells. That's where a lot of your DS is.
>invest in dodging.
Post-cap for an empath. Get to 3x spells first, but then dodging is the thing to train if extra DS is what you want at that point.
OM1E5GA
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/25/2017 07:57 AM CDT
<I am level 5 Empath with 1x Ranged Weapons and 2x Perception and was wanting to make sure my defensive stance DS was going to go up as I level up.>
As others have said, Dodging is the skill you'll need. The skill is very expensive for empaths though, so you might find it difficult to manage 1x along with everything else you'll need. I'd recommend heading over to the empath category and asking for training advice there if you're having trouble fitting it in. Weapon using empaths can be extremely effective, but they can also be extremely frustrating if you don't get your training and tactics just right.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
As others have said, Dodging is the skill you'll need. The skill is very expensive for empaths though, so you might find it difficult to manage 1x along with everything else you'll need. I'd recommend heading over to the empath category and asking for training advice there if you're having trouble fitting it in. Weapon using empaths can be extremely effective, but they can also be extremely frustrating if you don't get your training and tactics just right.
Starchitin
A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
RATHBONER
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/25/2017 09:03 AM CDT
>As others have said, Dodging is the skill you'll need.
Don't touch dodge. Perception is what you need in addition to the weapon skill (for AS and aiming reasons as well as DS). Rogue archers train dodge because they are rogues, not because they are archers. Empaths train spells not dodge.
Don't touch dodge. Perception is what you need in addition to the weapon skill (for AS and aiming reasons as well as DS). Rogue archers train dodge because they are rogues, not because they are archers. Empaths train spells not dodge.
JARHEAD
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/27/2017 06:36 AM CDT
<Don't touch dodge. Perception is what you need in addition to the weapon skill (for AS and aiming reasons as well as DS). Rogue archers train dodge because they are rogues, not because they are archers. Empaths train spells not dodge. - Rathboner
I'm with Rath on this one; stay away from dodge. Empaths can only single train in most skills that directly benefit archery, and dodge is VERY expensive for empaths; in my opinion, it's not worth the TP cost. You should get your spells up ASAP for the benefits of both offense and defense (plus some nifty set-up spells). However, don't expect to be that eye shooting maniac that properly trained ranged-using rogues and rangers become, but empaths can certainly be viable archers in their own right.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
I'm with Rath on this one; stay away from dodge. Empaths can only single train in most skills that directly benefit archery, and dodge is VERY expensive for empaths; in my opinion, it's not worth the TP cost. You should get your spells up ASAP for the benefits of both offense and defense (plus some nifty set-up spells). However, don't expect to be that eye shooting maniac that properly trained ranged-using rogues and rangers become, but empaths can certainly be viable archers in their own right.
General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
http://radeekandoran.blogspot.ca/
http://thetehirchronicles.blogspot.ca/
HEALERRICHIE
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/27/2017 10:14 PM CDT
I've noticed since I've been playing I've been having fun with 1700 a lot. A part of me is wondering should I switch to a runestaff. The thing is, if I switch to a runestaff, I'm more than likely going to do the 8 magical ranks minimum. The reason I'm using the bow right now is because I'm also training in 2x survival and 2x first aid for skinning. I'm trying to go for a hunter/empath type character. I'm just trying to make sure when I fight I have the DS I need in defensive stance to even fight. I figured up the numbers and if I switched up my bow for a sword and board combo I'd have just enough points to do that, if I took out the perception too. Just trying to make sure I'm going to be ABLE to hunt, or do you need spells in addition to your training no matter what weapon combo you use?
However, if you guys say that it IS possible for be an archer empath, then I'm gonna stick with it. Even though I don't use the bow right now, I like the feel of it and knowing I have a backup weapon for when mana runs out, because I haven't perfected ever playing a pure caster, not to mention I'm going for a good skinner path as well, not just the best hunter.
Thanks for all the info.
ARCHSENEX
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/27/2017 10:19 PM CDT
My empath is Mace and Shield, and she does just fine. You still rely on spells, but you can make the points fit. Empaths will always need their spells for offense boost no matter what training. It's baked into the class mechanisms, all pures are required to take spells, even if they're not what you hunt with.
THROGG
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/28/2017 01:14 AM CDT
Empaths, oddly enough, are better with weapons than clerics, due to their spell circle. I haven't tried archery ... you need lots of perception to make it work, from what I have read ... but my gal is doing fine with THWs. One benefit is that I can whack constructs in OTF, which most casters hate to hunt. Presumably you will have the same edge with archery as a secondary hunting mode.
THROGG
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/28/2017 01:19 AM CDT
Oh, by the way, there is no reason you can't buy a cheap 4x runestaff and use it when the situation calls for it. Just make a quick macro to stow your weapon and shield and grab the runestaff. (You can have 3 line macros if you are Premium).
stow r\r stow l\r get runestaff\r for example. Or use wear shield instead of stow l, if you prefer.
stow r\r stow l\r get runestaff\r for example. Or use wear shield instead of stow l, if you prefer.
RATHBONER
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/28/2017 08:16 AM CDT
>I've noticed since I've been playing I've been having fun with 1700 a lot. A part of me is wondering should I switch to a runestaff. The thing is, if I switch to a runestaff, I'm more than likely going to do the 8 magical ranks minimum. The reason I'm using the bow right now is because I'm also training in 2x survival and 2x first aid for skinning.
Don't worry about the 8 ranks. Its a myth that they are needed. At level 5 the difference between 6 ranks per level and 8 ranks per level is probably 1 DS, though it will round down to exactly the same DS in many situations. The important thing is to be holding it and to train the magic skills you need for your training path. Runestaff defense will look after itself providing you train as a pure and hold the runestaff. Its far, far more important to pick up your DS spells in a timely fashion than to have a set number of magic ranks.
You only need 2x between first aid and survival for skinning, though skill takes a while to build up so you will see an advantage as you build it up faster at low level. However, you'd be top notch at about level 20 and you'd only need to add 2 ranks between them after that to stay there. (The only way to get top quality skins at lower levels is with the ranger spell 604, extreme training doesn't help much) 2x survival on an empath is really extreme, but if you can spare the points to back up your character idea, go for it.
Don't worry about the 8 ranks. Its a myth that they are needed. At level 5 the difference between 6 ranks per level and 8 ranks per level is probably 1 DS, though it will round down to exactly the same DS in many situations. The important thing is to be holding it and to train the magic skills you need for your training path. Runestaff defense will look after itself providing you train as a pure and hold the runestaff. Its far, far more important to pick up your DS spells in a timely fashion than to have a set number of magic ranks.
You only need 2x between first aid and survival for skinning, though skill takes a while to build up so you will see an advantage as you build it up faster at low level. However, you'd be top notch at about level 20 and you'd only need to add 2 ranks between them after that to stay there. (The only way to get top quality skins at lower levels is with the ranger spell 604, extreme training doesn't help much) 2x survival on an empath is really extreme, but if you can spare the points to back up your character idea, go for it.
ARCHSENEX
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/28/2017 08:46 AM CDT
Also, for runestaves, remember that Arcane Symbols, Magic item use, spell aiming, and lores count. If you're building a pure empath, then you probably should take Spell aiming. It's cheap, and you'll have a few bolt spells you can fall back on while hunting creatures that might be hard to ward.
That's ONLY if you go full pure, if you're using a physical weapon, then you can still use your spells and swing on things you can't ward.
1106, Bone Shatter, is one of many great offesnsive spells that Empaths have, that even an empath built for physical attacks would still want to consider as an opener. My warpath uses 1106 as an opener, and then moves into just swinging as normal (using quickstrike. I cannot express how awesome quickstrike is for swinging empaths, since you have so much stamina from physical training). Later enemies you might also start using 117 in combination with your swings (and blessings lore to keep it up).
Honestly, Empaths are a really versatile class. They won't be the BEST swingers, but they're able to hold their own. But yes, no matter what you do, you should plan to get your spells, everything is balanced around that assumption.
That's ONLY if you go full pure, if you're using a physical weapon, then you can still use your spells and swing on things you can't ward.
1106, Bone Shatter, is one of many great offesnsive spells that Empaths have, that even an empath built for physical attacks would still want to consider as an opener. My warpath uses 1106 as an opener, and then moves into just swinging as normal (using quickstrike. I cannot express how awesome quickstrike is for swinging empaths, since you have so much stamina from physical training). Later enemies you might also start using 117 in combination with your swings (and blessings lore to keep it up).
Honestly, Empaths are a really versatile class. They won't be the BEST swingers, but they're able to hold their own. But yes, no matter what you do, you should plan to get your spells, everything is balanced around that assumption.
KRAKII
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/30/2017 09:48 AM CDT
"stow r\r stow l\r get runestaff\r for example. Or use wear shield instead of stow l, if you prefer." -- Throgg
Given that you are nearly guaranteed to be in a dangerous area when this is relevant, I would not recommend this particular macro.
(Because after two commands, you have nothing in either hand and precisely no melee defense, unless you are also training in Brawling.)
Absolute worst case, I would put away the right (1) and get the runestaff (2) before then putting away the shield (3) through whichever method you chose. This still gives you the shield defense throughout (to include chance for Block) but your defense goes down by Empty Right Hand amount between when your melee weapon leaves and your runestaff appears.
More ideally, I would put away the shield (1), get the runestaff [goes to the left hand] (2) but you still have melee defense from your weapon, SWAP (3) so that you go from melee defense (weapon) to melee defense (runestaff), and only then put away the weapon [from your left hand, now] (4).
Given that you are nearly guaranteed to be in a dangerous area when this is relevant, I would not recommend this particular macro.
(Because after two commands, you have nothing in either hand and precisely no melee defense, unless you are also training in Brawling.)
Absolute worst case, I would put away the right (1) and get the runestaff (2) before then putting away the shield (3) through whichever method you chose. This still gives you the shield defense throughout (to include chance for Block) but your defense goes down by Empty Right Hand amount between when your melee weapon leaves and your runestaff appears.
More ideally, I would put away the shield (1), get the runestaff [goes to the left hand] (2) but you still have melee defense from your weapon, SWAP (3) so that you go from melee defense (weapon) to melee defense (runestaff), and only then put away the weapon [from your left hand, now] (4).
ARCHSENEX
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/30/2017 10:27 AM CDT
Clearly, you need to invest in a cane stave, so that you can just turn the melee weapon into a staff, and then put away your sheild.
KRAKII
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/30/2017 10:31 AM CDT
Except that I'm pretty sure those come out as a quarterstaff, and not a runestaff.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
I would be delighted to be proven wrong.
ARCHSENEX
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/30/2017 10:58 AM CDT
The ones I got were runestaffs. They turned from bastard swords into runestaffs, both lightning flaring. GREAT for an early warpath (which is what I myself used, and still have two). There may be others that aren't runestaves, or maybe an old form? These were gotten about 5 years ago I believe during a FWI event.
ZHOUY1
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
05/30/2017 02:31 PM CDT
Archer empaths are usually more magic-inclined than their melee brethren, since they have more free training points: the cost for Ranged Weapons+2xPerception is only 14/12, compared to 25/11 for THW+CM or 31/10 for OHE+Shield+CM. You will be able to hunt exclusively with magic when trained as an archer. If you do this then I would recommend skipping Spell Aiming and going deep into spell ranks for better warding magic. Use warding spells to lead or disable and finish off with the bow.
DS will improve as you train in ranged weapons and scales with stance, and you will be absolutely fine in defensive/guarded against like-level, but (like THW) you only get it against melee attacks. Empaths do not usually train in Dodging so they are very weak against enemy archers (and bolters to some extent, though spells help there). Against them you will want to carry a runestaff for the extra defense.
If you just need to skin then 3x First Aid. The third rank in First Aid is cheaper than the first rank in Survival. Survival is more for foraging and environmental hazards.
DS will improve as you train in ranged weapons and scales with stance, and you will be absolutely fine in defensive/guarded against like-level, but (like THW) you only get it against melee attacks. Empaths do not usually train in Dodging so they are very weak against enemy archers (and bolters to some extent, though spells help there). Against them you will want to carry a runestaff for the extra defense.
If you just need to skin then 3x First Aid. The third rank in First Aid is cheaper than the first rank in Survival. Survival is more for foraging and environmental hazards.
THROGG
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
06/01/2017 01:29 AM CDT
>>Empaths are a really versatile class. They won't be the BEST swingers, but they're able to hold their own. But yes, no matter what you do, you should plan to get your spells, everything is balanced around that assumption.<<
Warpaths are cool; mine has 30 ranks of MOC for a focused MStrike. Being able to do Construct bounties is one side benefit. Also, ridiculous stamina, as noted.
Warpaths are cool; mine has 30 ranks of MOC for a focused MStrike. Being able to do Construct bounties is one side benefit. Also, ridiculous stamina, as noted.
THROGG
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
06/01/2017 01:36 AM CDT
>>Given that you are nearly guaranteed to be in a dangerous area when this is relevant, I would not recommend this particular macro.
(Because after two commands, you have nothing in either hand and precisely no melee defense, unless you are also training in Brawling.)<<
Unless there is lag, it takes something like 1/10 of a second to execute the macro. However, I do like the suggestion of altering the sequence and grabbing the runestaff before stowing the shield. It is always possible that a critter could get off an attack during the brief time both hands are empty.
(Because after two commands, you have nothing in either hand and precisely no melee defense, unless you are also training in Brawling.)<<
Unless there is lag, it takes something like 1/10 of a second to execute the macro. However, I do like the suggestion of altering the sequence and grabbing the runestaff before stowing the shield. It is always possible that a critter could get off an attack during the brief time both hands are empty.
KRAKII
Re: Do Ranged Weapons Get DS?
06/01/2017 08:33 AM CDT
Not just possible, but witnessed.
I have hit macro buttons that fire off several commands, and seen attacks (or casts, same thing) from new spawns or walk-ins or something already present that shakes a stun or....
Why take chances?
I have hit macro buttons that fire off several commands, and seen attacks (or casts, same thing) from new spawns or walk-ins or something already present that shakes a stun or....
Why take chances?
