Hello rangers.
As I mentioned in the other post, I just recently returned after a six year hiatus. The upshot is that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot that I've missed regarding the ranger profession, other than the noticeable increase and/or stackability of some/most of the spells.
However, there seems to be a new CMAN - cunning defense?
Due to my mutant training path (Ranged/Thrown/TWC), I have a decent amount of CM training, which I have used as follows:
Skill name
Ranks
Dirtkick
5
Disarm Weapon
5
Feint
4
However, in practice, these have been mostly for defensive reasons. The possible exception is disarm weapon, which is handy when an Illoke Elder picks up my thrown weapon and attempts to beat me with it. Dirtkick is nice for RP, but I do not recall any particular advantage, and feint - feint is irrelevant against ranged AS, most of the time.
Therefore, I am inclined to drop some ranks in at least two of those and apply them towards Cunning Defense. However, it could be that it's very terrible and you recommend against it.
And before any other skills are suggested - shadow mastery I won't use, because I don't like the upkeep cost. (I have a hard enough with Assume Aspect). Shield skills I won't use because I have no shield. Sweep I won't use, because it's not my style (Let me throw an axe in your eye and then run up and sweep you? No.) Not the stance one, because I don't have that kind of luxury to never either be in full offense or full ds stance. Not Mfire because the RT doesn't seem to sync up with what is possible firing arrows individually. (Although I do like the flash of it.)
Anyway, is Cunning Defense a worthy CMan? Your feedback is appreciated.
~ Bill, Coyote.
COYOTERRE
JARHEAD
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/25/2014 04:44 PM CDT
Being that you've stated you're hunting Illoke I would recommend SWEEP. I understand what you stated about the axe in the eye, but they will fall on you with regularity. Sweep is just the insurance policy. Granted, you can drop them with spike, but unless you have a boatload of mana it tends to go pretty quick down there. I swept exclusively when I hunted there, and used spike when my stamina got low and it was exceedingly effective, especially with the ease of 1 shot eye kills on a prone opponent.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
COYOTERRE
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/25/2014 07:19 PM CDT
I forgot about the formatting in this place. My post looks dumb. :(
I looked through my old logs briefly (trying to figure out what I was thinking when I changed my training) and I did find that I was legging all the Illoke with either arrow or axe, before I went for the head shot, and that seemed to be pretty effective.
So, I get what you're saying about Sweep, Radeek. It's tempting.
Cunning Defense, not to your liking? I say Driikn's post (after I posted, duh)(hi Driikn!) and there seemed a few ppl who seemed to like it.
I haven't done anything yet. I think I'm going to attempt to hunt tonight (Rift, I'm told, by my local tourguide) and see how it goes.
I looked through my old logs briefly (trying to figure out what I was thinking when I changed my training) and I did find that I was legging all the Illoke with either arrow or axe, before I went for the head shot, and that seemed to be pretty effective.
So, I get what you're saying about Sweep, Radeek. It's tempting.
Cunning Defense, not to your liking? I say Driikn's post (after I posted, duh)(hi Driikn!) and there seemed a few ppl who seemed to like it.
I haven't done anything yet. I think I'm going to attempt to hunt tonight (Rift, I'm told, by my local tourguide) and see how it goes.
JARHEAD
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/25/2014 08:23 PM CDT
Personally I don't care for the rift. I'm sunfist now instead of voln, so undead just don't hold much appeal to me and I carry a capped hunting ground around in my back pocket. I used sweep in the bowels rather than legging. I found it more effective, especially with spiked leg grieves. I have yet to mess with Cunning Defence, but it does look tempting. As with everything else here, go with what fits you. That's one of the best things about being a ranger. We're very versatile.
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Radeek Andoran
General, Drakes Vanguard
DMWCINCY
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/26/2014 12:33 AM CDT
For pup I went with disarm and cdefense to max out as much defense as he can get for being disarmed. Cunning defense is very cheap to not max out. As he is a sunfist and between ambush ranks and sigils he had no issues legging a illoke...spike thorn if needed then another ambush to off the head. Do know he is train sword and board and as a true semi...even on weapon and magic training. I hunted bowels the best alone as an ambusher.
PENNINGTONB1
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/26/2014 01:25 AM CDT
I basically look at CMANs as defensive abilities. About the only time I use them offensively is to help lower level friends hunt more efficiently. Most of the CMANs available to rangers can be replaced in function by our spells, which are generally more effective and won't leave you as prone to taking hits (e.g. can be used from a higher stance, and only induce soft RT) as the CMANs will (offensive and hard RT). At your level (though I would argue that there are better options at any level), you should have enough mana to make nearly endless use of 610/607, along with the occasional use of 616/635.
With such a defensive outlook regarding CMANs, Cunning Defense seems a very worthwhile expenditure, especially because a large variety of maneuvers are used throughout all capped hunting grounds (including bandits) which makes it impossible to train up individual skills for defense against specific maneuvers.
My CMAN list looks like this:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Movement cmovement 2 (prereq for Side By Side)
Combat Focus focus 1 (had extra points and always need TD)
Shadow Mastery smastery 5 (RT reduction)
Shield Bash sbash 5 (for roleplaying purposes)
Disarm Weapon disarm 4 (defense)
Sweep sweep 2 (mostly use to help other characters hunt)
Feint feint 4 (defense, use to help others)
Side by Side sidebyside 2 (don't really need, but it's a neat skill)
Cunning Defense cdefense 5 (defense)
~Brian, Sepher's player
With such a defensive outlook regarding CMANs, Cunning Defense seems a very worthwhile expenditure, especially because a large variety of maneuvers are used throughout all capped hunting grounds (including bandits) which makes it impossible to train up individual skills for defense against specific maneuvers.
My CMAN list looks like this:
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Combat Movement cmovement 2 (prereq for Side By Side)
Combat Focus focus 1 (had extra points and always need TD)
Shadow Mastery smastery 5 (RT reduction)
Shield Bash sbash 5 (for roleplaying purposes)
Disarm Weapon disarm 4 (defense)
Sweep sweep 2 (mostly use to help other characters hunt)
Feint feint 4 (defense, use to help others)
Side by Side sidebyside 2 (don't really need, but it's a neat skill)
Cunning Defense cdefense 5 (defense)
~Brian, Sepher's player
TROUBLE13
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/26/2014 07:27 PM CDT
Something to keep in mind, last I knew he was hunting in fullplate, so spells were/are kind of out the window.
SABLANJM
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/26/2014 08:59 PM CDT
Someone listed SBASH above for roleplaying purposes, I have it for defensive purposes as it is our only option to defend against the SMAN and shield based CMAN maneuvers of which the Grimswarm and bandits seem to be picking more and more of them up.
Rangers kind of get shafted on CMAN's for offensive purposes, especially thrown and ranged rangers, they say it is because we have spells or some such...but you can buy most of our spells in self mana item format if you have the silver you can't buy those CMAN options.
I have Cdefense, Sbash, and Disarm, all for defensive purposes, I might try to get dirtkick at some point.
ELIZAISGOD
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/27/2014 07:16 PM CDT
I'll echo everyone else saying that CMANs are almost entirely defensive for rangers. With how easy it is to migrate CMAN points these days, you should really tailor your CMAN set up to whatever it is you're hunting at the moment. This is what my loadout looks like for Scatter/Grimswarm/Bandits:
Combat Focus focus 4
Dirtkick dirtkick 5
Disarm Weapon disarm 5
Sweep sweep 2
Hamstring hamstring 4
Subdual Strike sstrike 5
Cunning Defense cdefense 5
Regarding your question about cdefense, it's probably our best overall maneuver. Every single ranger should train it.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
Combat Focus focus 4
Dirtkick dirtkick 5
Disarm Weapon disarm 5
Sweep sweep 2
Hamstring hamstring 4
Subdual Strike sstrike 5
Cunning Defense cdefense 5
Regarding your question about cdefense, it's probably our best overall maneuver. Every single ranger should train it.
Droit
Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
COYOTERRE
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/27/2014 08:56 PM CDT
You can tell the post-cap rangers, they got like ten million cman points spread out over the whole thing. I had to do a triple take before I realized what I was looking at. :-p
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Some things change, some things remain the same: My Cman training was always for defense (or RP), so I've trained in cdefense and will add back levels to various cmans as points become available. That was my inclination, but the feedback helped me come to that conclusion.
Thanks again.
~ Bill, still rusty, but getting there.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Some things change, some things remain the same: My Cman training was always for defense (or RP), so I've trained in cdefense and will add back levels to various cmans as points become available. That was my inclination, but the feedback helped me come to that conclusion.
Thanks again.
~ Bill, still rusty, but getting there.
ZENNSUNNI
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/28/2014 12:09 PM CDT
Yeah, this thread is a little misleading for some I think. The OP was, I believe, post-cap. This changes the context quite a bit.
To all those rangers levelling out there and reading this, CM is optional for most of your leveling days. You could easily cap with zero on a ranged build. Personally at 46 I've yet to decide whether or not I'm going to train in CM. Currently, grinding out 3-4 ranks of lore every train to catch it up to 1x seems more profitable for nasty 635's. Nearer to cap, one might think about all the stuff these guys are discussing, like defensive CMAN training.
Player of Zeek
To all those rangers levelling out there and reading this, CM is optional for most of your leveling days. You could easily cap with zero on a ranged build. Personally at 46 I've yet to decide whether or not I'm going to train in CM. Currently, grinding out 3-4 ranks of lore every train to catch it up to 1x seems more profitable for nasty 635's. Nearer to cap, one might think about all the stuff these guys are discussing, like defensive CMAN training.
Player of Zeek
SABLANJM
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/28/2014 02:32 PM CDT
I don't know, I think it depends on how much you like bandits on doing the one hit kill shuffle on your head. It could be coincidence, maybe just the way the numbers roll but since picking up SBASH I have yet to have a one hit kill by a bandit, before I was getting it at least every other bandit hunt.
You can cap without bandits or grimswarm, I do both occasionally though and HCP armor is out of my price range so CMAN's it is.
COYOTERRE
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/28/2014 10:26 PM CDT
Yeah, this thread is a little misleading for some I think. The OP was, I believe, post-cap. This changes the context quite a bit.
To all those rangers levelling out there and reading this, CM is optional for most of your leveling days. You could easily cap with zero on a ranged build. Personally at 46 I've yet to decide whether or not I'm going to train in CM. Currently, grinding out 3-4 ranks of lore every train to catch it up to 1x seems more profitable for nasty 635's. Nearer to cap, one might think about all the stuff these guys are discussing, like defensive CMAN training.
Player of Zeek
No, not capped yet. I could have capped, way back when, but at the time it was an RP decision to have a weakness. Now, I'm back and there's lots of post-cap places to go and things to do, so cap isn't the 'end game' it once was. I'm sure I'll hit the cap soon (couple few months).
I have a younger ranger (still on ice) and he's more traditionally trained (as I recall), and I don't know that CM is a big part of his training. It will be, though.
I don't know that I agree with "you could easily cap with zero on a ranged build" because the creatures are notably more complex at the higher end of the hunting scale - and RT inducing effects tend to stack on top of area effects, etc. Getting forced into stance and RT in some of these areas (before cap) is generally death.
Is it an immediate concern? No, not for half the builds. But it is something that is needed before cap, imho.
To all those rangers levelling out there and reading this, CM is optional for most of your leveling days. You could easily cap with zero on a ranged build. Personally at 46 I've yet to decide whether or not I'm going to train in CM. Currently, grinding out 3-4 ranks of lore every train to catch it up to 1x seems more profitable for nasty 635's. Nearer to cap, one might think about all the stuff these guys are discussing, like defensive CMAN training.
Player of Zeek
No, not capped yet. I could have capped, way back when, but at the time it was an RP decision to have a weakness. Now, I'm back and there's lots of post-cap places to go and things to do, so cap isn't the 'end game' it once was. I'm sure I'll hit the cap soon (couple few months).
I have a younger ranger (still on ice) and he's more traditionally trained (as I recall), and I don't know that CM is a big part of his training. It will be, though.
I don't know that I agree with "you could easily cap with zero on a ranged build" because the creatures are notably more complex at the higher end of the hunting scale - and RT inducing effects tend to stack on top of area effects, etc. Getting forced into stance and RT in some of these areas (before cap) is generally death.
Is it an immediate concern? No, not for half the builds. But it is something that is needed before cap, imho.
ABBOTTB
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/29/2014 10:04 AM CDT
My ranged ranger didn't start to pick up Combat Maneuvers until he was level 60.
Currently he is level 88.
The Cmans he has are purely for defense. I had him get 5 ranks of Disarm first, then 5 ranks of Cunning Defense. Now he is working on Subdual Strike. Yes he is GoS and I have him hunt bandits.
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Disarm Weapon disarm 5
Subdual Strike sstrike 3
Cunning Defense cdefense 5
Peace
Zhelas
(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?
Currently he is level 88.
The Cmans he has are purely for defense. I had him get 5 ranks of Disarm first, then 5 ranks of Cunning Defense. Now he is working on Subdual Strike. Yes he is GoS and I have him hunt bandits.
Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Disarm Weapon disarm 5
Subdual Strike sstrike 3
Cunning Defense cdefense 5
Peace
Zhelas
(Lord Paladin walks around Droit examining his equipment.)
Lord Paladin: How does he....How does he work?
TROUBLE13
Re: Your thoughts on combat maneuvers.
03/30/2014 01:10 AM CDT
The OP isn't capped yet, but he is getting close.
