I got a task for Stone Trolls this AM for the AG. I usually try to avoid the giants as much as possible, but I'm 56 now and only two levels separate us, so I figured they shouldn't be so bad.
Was very, very wrong I guess.
Like I said, I'm a level 56 paladin, wear full plate, 1x in CM (plus 33 ranks from 1611), I'm 1x in PF, 2x OHE/Shield, and was in defensive stance for all of this. Is there any way to mitigate this? I'm not familiar with the new SMR stuff, but from the little I've seen, it destroys me.
A stone troll slaps the ground in front of a stone giant!
>
The ground begins to shake violently, making it hard to stand.
You lose your balance and fall over.
>u
You will have to stand up first or crawl there.
>
A stone troll swings a war hammer at you!
AS: +323 vs DS: +380 with AvD: +19 + d100 roll: +11 = -27
A clean miss.
>stand
A stone giant plunges his fist into the ground in front of you!
The ground beneath your feet begins to boil violently!
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 94, Bonus: 20)]
... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike to your left leg breaking tendons and bone!
You are stunned for 6 rounds!
>
You are still stunned.
>u
You are still stunned.
>
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 140 (Open d100: 41, Bonus: 69)]
... 25 points of damage!
Right hand fried to a crisp. Think barbecue sauce.
>
The ground buckles as a stone giant tunnels to the surface!
>beseech
You beseech Koar for some divine assistance.
Your petition to Koar has been heard and you feel a renewed freedom as a restricting force is abolished from you.
You are no longer stunned.
>stand
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 139 (Open d100: 67, Bonus: 39)]
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames chars neck a crispy black.
You are stunned for 2 rounds!
>
You are still stunned.
>u
You are still stunned.
>
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 119 (Open d100: 12, Bonus: 77)]
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left leg burns skin bright red.
>
A stone giant swings a war mattock at you!
Nearly insensible, you desperately block the attack with your aegis!
>crawl u
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 133 (Open d100: 26, Bonus: 78)]
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
>
The ground begins to shake violently, making it hard to stand.
>
A stone troll swings a war hammer at you!
AS: +323 vs DS: +340 with AvD: +19 + d100 roll: +43 = +45
A clean miss.
>
You are still stunned.
>crawl u
You are still stunned.
>
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath you!
[SMR result: 97 (Open d100: -11, Bonus: 79)]
You dodge out of the way!
The ground beneath you suddenly calms.
>crawl u
You are still stunned.
>crawl u
You are still stunned.
>
A stone giant plunges her fist into the ground in front of you!
CS: +257 - TD: +245 + CvA: -24 + d100: +64 == +52
Warded off!
>crawl u
You are still stunned.
>crawl u
You are still stunned.
>crawl u
You are still stunned.
>crawl u
You crawl up.
GHOSTRAVER
RATHBONER
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 08:06 AM CDT
For SMRv2 results, apart from skills you listed, perception and dodge.
Stats are AGI and DEX+INT as secondary effects.
Spells 215,313,535,704(Sorc only),712,913,1109,1611(Pal only) as well as the ones that give dodge ranks (e.g. Blurs should be easy to get in the Landing and counts for 20 dodge ranks)
For gear against Earthern Fury, resistances to its damage types (Impact/Fire in your clip, Puncture/Cold also possible from the spell) and crit padding.
Crawl at the first opportunity, if you get one, don't stand when its being cast.
Your results look pretty good to me. Thats the sort of EF result I get at 10 levels over the critter, not 2 levels under. I don't think I've survived a cast from a critter I could learn from yet. Its that spell, not SMRv2 itself which I seem to do rather better against than the old SMR on other manoevers.
Dead critters don't cast. Critters with bad headaches don't cast. Critters without right arms don't cast. Critters in RT don't cast. Use whatever control method you find most effective, but stopping them casting in the first place is the best mitigation.
Stats are AGI and DEX+INT as secondary effects.
Spells 215,313,535,704(Sorc only),712,913,1109,1611(Pal only) as well as the ones that give dodge ranks (e.g. Blurs should be easy to get in the Landing and counts for 20 dodge ranks)
For gear against Earthern Fury, resistances to its damage types (Impact/Fire in your clip, Puncture/Cold also possible from the spell) and crit padding.
Crawl at the first opportunity, if you get one, don't stand when its being cast.
Your results look pretty good to me. Thats the sort of EF result I get at 10 levels over the critter, not 2 levels under. I don't think I've survived a cast from a critter I could learn from yet. Its that spell, not SMRv2 itself which I seem to do rather better against than the old SMR on other manoevers.
Dead critters don't cast. Critters with bad headaches don't cast. Critters without right arms don't cast. Critters in RT don't cast. Use whatever control method you find most effective, but stopping them casting in the first place is the best mitigation.
ARCHSENEX
DRUMPEL
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 10:06 AM CDT
>[SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 94, Bonus: 20)]
The roll was high, but not an open roll. That's what really pushed the spell into the range that makes it hurt for your cast.
Also, the creature has a +20 bonus against you since you were prone. Those bonuses are in favor of the caster and they build up quick. If you're legs are wounded, the caster gets a higher bonus over say your arm being wounded on the initial cast. Once you're on the ground, that's 20 to the caster, not to mention your injuries, encumbrance and not being fully trained for your armor also add into it as well.
>[SMR result: 140 (Open d100: 41, Bonus: 69)]
The initial cast broke your leg, plus you are prone. That nasty leg break added another 49 to the caster's bonus - ouch.
There's not really much more you can do other than keeping healed and not being prone. RATHBONER laid out the gist of everything you can possibly do to help protect yourself. If you have no perception, be sure to start training that. Dodge will also help, but I'm not sure how dedicated you are to it since you're already in full plate.
-Drumpel
The roll was high, but not an open roll. That's what really pushed the spell into the range that makes it hurt for your cast.
Also, the creature has a +20 bonus against you since you were prone. Those bonuses are in favor of the caster and they build up quick. If you're legs are wounded, the caster gets a higher bonus over say your arm being wounded on the initial cast. Once you're on the ground, that's 20 to the caster, not to mention your injuries, encumbrance and not being fully trained for your armor also add into it as well.
>[SMR result: 140 (Open d100: 41, Bonus: 69)]
The initial cast broke your leg, plus you are prone. That nasty leg break added another 49 to the caster's bonus - ouch.
There's not really much more you can do other than keeping healed and not being prone. RATHBONER laid out the gist of everything you can possibly do to help protect yourself. If you have no perception, be sure to start training that. Dodge will also help, but I'm not sure how dedicated you are to it since you're already in full plate.
-Drumpel
RATHBONER
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 10:43 AM CDT
>The initial cast broke your leg, plus you are prone. That nasty leg break added another 49 to the caster's bonus - ouch.
Wounds don't count against magical SMRv2 manoevers in general and this one in particular is cited as the official example of a spell where wound penalties don't count.
If it is counting wounds rather than just prone and stunned, that might be a reason its more deadly than it ought to be.
Wounds don't count against magical SMRv2 manoevers in general and this one in particular is cited as the official example of a spell where wound penalties don't count.
If it is counting wounds rather than just prone and stunned, that might be a reason its more deadly than it ought to be.
KRAKII
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 11:44 AM CDT
My Bard trained up a bunch of PF and Perception, because they were cheap and all skills were listed as equal in value.
If Paladins can learn the Maneuver to brace up on their shield (and "not fall down" thereby, that would be good to have.
If Paladins can learn the Maneuver to brace up on their shield (and "not fall down" thereby, that would be good to have.
RATHBONER
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 11:58 AM CDT
>If Paladins can learn the Maneuver to brace up on their shield (and "not fall down" thereby, that would be good to have.
Prop up. Big shield manoever available to paladins as well as warriors. Definitely one to have at some point, though shield points are likely still at a premium for you.
Prop up. Big shield manoever available to paladins as well as warriors. Definitely one to have at some point, though shield points are likely still at a premium for you.
CAVEMANIAC
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 06:37 PM CDT
Does Sigil of Determination negate the wound modifier for this spell?
GHOSTRAVER
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 10:15 PM CDT
Thanks all.
I just got my first rank of prop up, hoping to see that pay some dividends in the future. As it stands currently, the giants are too beefy to reliably stop casting when they show up, especially when it gets swarm-y. I had to drop my Ambush ranks in favor of MOC because of the stupid 10s failed to find opening bug with ohe/shield combo. They also can't be bashed if I recall, so these things are a nightmare.
I just got my first rank of prop up, hoping to see that pay some dividends in the future. As it stands currently, the giants are too beefy to reliably stop casting when they show up, especially when it gets swarm-y. I had to drop my Ambush ranks in favor of MOC because of the stupid 10s failed to find opening bug with ohe/shield combo. They also can't be bashed if I recall, so these things are a nightmare.
JTU
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/03/2017 10:25 PM CDT
Are you in Voln? If you are in Voln and use symbol of transcendence immediately after the first cycle breaks your leg/stuns/prones you/whatever, you become incorporeal and immune to additional wounds and crit death from the subsequent cycles, and just take hp damage. This will give you a very good chance to live through the spell with minimal wounds for you to run away when the stun wears off. If you combine this with beseech you're pretty much guaranteed to walk away alive.
DRUMPEL
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/04/2017 02:04 AM CDT
>Wounds don't count against magical SMRv2 manoevers in general and this one in particular is cited as the official example of a spell where wound penalties don't count.
>If it is counting wounds rather than just prone and stunned, that might be a reason its more deadly than it ought to be.
Stunned/prone nets +20-40 bonus. I do believe each will, without checking again, give a +20.
Injuries stack the bonus up with a diminishing return. That's how it works with 917.
This line from the wiki:
"Some factors may not be considered for a particular maneuver, depending upon its specifics. For example, magical maneuvers such as Earthen Fury (917) do not factor in the caster's stance or injuries"
It's talking about the caster. Not the target. Even if the caster is injured (no legs for example) and can still cast 917, the caster's spell does not become hindered. Think of it as a CS spell. Even if you have no legs, your CS doesn't take a hit when you cast the spell.
-Drumpel
>If it is counting wounds rather than just prone and stunned, that might be a reason its more deadly than it ought to be.
Stunned/prone nets +20-40 bonus. I do believe each will, without checking again, give a +20.
Injuries stack the bonus up with a diminishing return. That's how it works with 917.
This line from the wiki:
"Some factors may not be considered for a particular maneuver, depending upon its specifics. For example, magical maneuvers such as Earthen Fury (917) do not factor in the caster's stance or injuries"
It's talking about the caster. Not the target. Even if the caster is injured (no legs for example) and can still cast 917, the caster's spell does not become hindered. Think of it as a CS spell. Even if you have no legs, your CS doesn't take a hit when you cast the spell.
-Drumpel
THROGG
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/04/2017 09:05 PM CDT
Earthen Fury is quite survivable. However, it's effects are a greatly increased if the target is prone. The big problem was the tremors spell cast by the stone troll, which knocked you down. When I was hunting there at that level, I tried to avoid the giants and just take on the trolls.
As far a creature's casting goes ... yes, head wounds and arm loss will stop them from casting spells. However, some of the Iloke attacks are classified as innate abilities, and not spells, in which case they can use them regardless of wounds. The Jarl stone fist attack, for example, can be used even if the Jarl is silenced and missing a right arm. I don't remember if the stone trolls and giants fall into this category, or if their spell like abilities are considered true spells.
As far a creature's casting goes ... yes, head wounds and arm loss will stop them from casting spells. However, some of the Iloke attacks are classified as innate abilities, and not spells, in which case they can use them regardless of wounds. The Jarl stone fist attack, for example, can be used even if the Jarl is silenced and missing a right arm. I don't remember if the stone trolls and giants fall into this category, or if their spell like abilities are considered true spells.
DOUG
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/04/2017 11:07 PM CDT
>>Stunned/prone nets +20-40 bonus. I do believe each will, without checking again, give a +20.
Injuries stack the bonus up with a diminishing return. That's how it works with 917.
>>It's talking about the caster.
Drumpel's got this one nailed, Rath. Wounds count (huge, too) on the target and add in nicely to the bonus leading to more damage. The caster, however. . . if the caster can cast, no penalties for the caster's wounds in SMRv2 for 917.
Doug
Injuries stack the bonus up with a diminishing return. That's how it works with 917.
>>It's talking about the caster.
Drumpel's got this one nailed, Rath. Wounds count (huge, too) on the target and add in nicely to the bonus leading to more damage. The caster, however. . . if the caster can cast, no penalties for the caster's wounds in SMRv2 for 917.
Doug
RATHBONER
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/05/2017 07:00 AM CDT
>Drumpel's got this one nailed, Rath. Wounds count (huge, too) on the target and add in nicely to the bonus leading to more damage. The caster, however. . . if the caster can cast, no penalties for the caster's wounds in SMRv2 for 917.
Its, ambiguous, but I still think the natural reading of that post, in the context of the whole post, is that wounds on the target should not be counting. I don't see why Konacon would even have bothered to have included that mention if that wasn't the intent.
Its, ambiguous, but I still think the natural reading of that post, in the context of the whole post, is that wounds on the target should not be counting. I don't see why Konacon would even have bothered to have included that mention if that wasn't the intent.
ZENDADA
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/05/2017 08:27 AM CDT
If no one has mentioned it... stay unencumbered!
Chad, player of a few
Chad, player of a few
DRUMPEL
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/05/2017 09:26 AM CDT
>Its, ambiguous, but I still think the natural reading of that post, in the context of the whole post, is that wounds on the target should not be counting. I don't see why Konacon would even have bothered to have included that mention if that wasn't the intent.
I just think it was worded poorly.
Think of the caster's power for casting 917 the same as how a CS spell works; regardless of the caster's stance, prone or injuries (aside from ones that prevent casting).
I can have my wizard lay down and still cast 501 with the same CS as I can standing. I can cast 501 missing a leg with the same CS as I could with two legs. 917 works in the same manner for the caster.
The target however, the more they're injured, encumbered, under trained for their armor, stunned, prone and lower level than the caster, they're much more susceptible to the spell. As things compound (such as injuries) the bonus will continue to build with a diminishing return. The highest bonus I've seen from casting 917 against a target was just over 100. The target was prone, stunned, missing at least 1 leg, missing an eye and had various other wounds.
I think his just worded it wrong, because when I first read it I thought the same thing you did.
-Drumpel
I just think it was worded poorly.
Think of the caster's power for casting 917 the same as how a CS spell works; regardless of the caster's stance, prone or injuries (aside from ones that prevent casting).
I can have my wizard lay down and still cast 501 with the same CS as I can standing. I can cast 501 missing a leg with the same CS as I could with two legs. 917 works in the same manner for the caster.
The target however, the more they're injured, encumbered, under trained for their armor, stunned, prone and lower level than the caster, they're much more susceptible to the spell. As things compound (such as injuries) the bonus will continue to build with a diminishing return. The highest bonus I've seen from casting 917 against a target was just over 100. The target was prone, stunned, missing at least 1 leg, missing an eye and had various other wounds.
I think his just worded it wrong, because when I first read it I thought the same thing you did.
-Drumpel
DOUG
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/05/2017 10:22 AM CDT
I see.
I think the key note is to ensure we understand that under SMRv2, wounds affect both parties - injuries are specifically included as 'other factors' (aggressor can't get maximum bonus if missing a leg style of thing). But there would be some cases where wounds wouldn't affect the aggressor's result - and since Earthen Fury was launching, it was example-fied.
This clarification doesn't affect the advice given, though. That's all still solid. Just noticed, something after reviewing that. Highlighting the key part, because I know how you paladins enjoy your plate. . .
We should add to the list that you should strive to have fully trained away AP to the maximum extent possible, I believe. In fact, I might go so far as to suggest wearing a lower AG in favor of less AP. Not sure.
Doug
I think the key note is to ensure we understand that under SMRv2, wounds affect both parties - injuries are specifically included as 'other factors' (aggressor can't get maximum bonus if missing a leg style of thing). But there would be some cases where wounds wouldn't affect the aggressor's result - and since Earthen Fury was launching, it was example-fied.
This clarification doesn't affect the advice given, though. That's all still solid. Just noticed, something after reviewing that. Highlighting the key part, because I know how you paladins enjoy your plate. . .
| Other factors |
| Stance, level difference, size/race, injuries, encumbrance, armor penalty, and status conditions. |
| from: https://gswiki.play.net/Standard_maneuver_roll/saved_posts#Version_2 |
We should add to the list that you should strive to have fully trained away AP to the maximum extent possible, I believe. In fact, I might go so far as to suggest wearing a lower AG in favor of less AP. Not sure.
Doug
LEAFIARA
Re: Not sure how to counter
06/05/2017 12:28 PM CDT
>>In fact, I might go so far as to suggest wearing a lower AG in favor of less AP. Not sure.
Even though I was always in offensive because of Zealot, my paladin in metal breastplate didn't really have that much trouble against Earthen Fury for the whole run from stone trolls to warped tree spirits where that spell gets cast at you constantly. Still, it's hard to say if it was because of her armor or more because of 2x Physical Fitness, 1x Dodging, and being an elf...
At very least I'd definitely tell anyone it's worth a try. Go out in full plate and see what the numbers look like, go out in metal breastplate and see what the numbers look like, and then decide from there.
Even though I was always in offensive because of Zealot, my paladin in metal breastplate didn't really have that much trouble against Earthen Fury for the whole run from stone trolls to warped tree spirits where that spell gets cast at you constantly. Still, it's hard to say if it was because of her armor or more because of 2x Physical Fitness, 1x Dodging, and being an elf...
At very least I'd definitely tell anyone it's worth a try. Go out in full plate and see what the numbers look like, go out in metal breastplate and see what the numbers look like, and then decide from there.
