This is just one symptom of monks being released on a design that was many years out of date. Other squares have had huge increases in their multiple attack and disablement capability in that time but monks are back somewhere before the MOC/beserk upgrades. And its just got worse since release. Other classes that already had several have been given additional tools in this area. Monks remain with none.

Vertigo doesn't actually disable critters when they fail a warding roll. That's down to hidden checks made later. If the critter is killed before any of those checks are made, which will happen quite a lot in a big group, giving AG credit on vertigo would be giving credit so someone that had contributed nothing by way of damage or disablement to the kill. It doesn't really do anything for the profession to give AG credit for throwing a bit of mana around uselessly.

Yes, the most effective monk build is an imitation ranger. Physical armor, use a bow and that opens up mfire. You think this means monks are fine?

I do bandit tasks with groups of warriors, where we avoid mstriking to be sure everyone gets a hit in. Sometimes our groups include monks, and they get their hits in too. Group bandit tasks aren't that difficult if your group acts as a team. You don't need a multi-attack method, just good teammates. I can't speak to the over-all effectiveness of monks, but that wasn't the question was it?

Kerl

OK, this isn't quite on topic; but yes, any profession can hunt in a group if everyone takes care to let you get a hit in. But as a general rule ... well, let's just say that monks, hunting alone, suck big time. OK, if you converted a high level warrior or rogue or whatever to a capped or near capped monk, you can do well. Trying to bring up a monk from level 0, using UAC and wearing robes, (which is what they are designed to do) I got seriously frustrated. I ended up having to underhunt by 5 levels to avoid getting slaughtered. I have taken every other profession up to at least level 40, and capped 3 so far. I gave up on my monk at level 9. It just wasn't worth the heartache.

Yes, I could make her more viable by fixskilling her over to, say, ranged weapons, and bump up her armor etc., but then why bother having a monk in the first place? Better off being a ranger or rogue. I have 2 rogues who are now purely brawling. The UAC rocks from ambush; not so much so from the open.

"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."

Thanks, Finros!

>>And if they don't? You can join in the mstriking and not be much worse off. The monk can't. In with a like level group, the monk has to be babysat, other professions don't.


I am going to say then that you are doing something wrong. I've hunted with a monk in a group doing post cap bandits. The monk has zero issues keeping up with the kills and at times will finish bandits before I do. No need to slow down for the monk. No need to wait for the monk. No need to babysit the monk. As mention if you are in a GROUP, fight like a group and support each other. Not be greedy and take all the kills. In a group Mass attack spells are not needed.

Pup's Player

Yeah maybe I was a bit negative on the tone there. Yes the spell was broke and now fixed. I'm all for improving things for everyone and in this case yes it should give credit to monks when used. Am glad the GM noticed and fixed the issue.

With that said, what I am trying to say is you do not need a mass affect to be effective in a group hunt for bandits. I have witnessed a high level monk that easily keeps up with the rest of the group. Its doable and very effective in a group hunt. Saying monks are not effective just because they can't hit every bandit at once is simply wrong. I'm not sure if its due to laziness in tactics, the need to kill everything at once so the hunt is done in 5 seconds or some other reason? I can't know the motivations behind it. BUT with a little work in how a group works a monk has zero issues keeping up with the group.

You can take this as me being negative. I'm simply pointing out a false statement is all. I know a number of monks that are very successful. I also realize that monks do need work on but heck you are talking about a very new profession compare to the rest of the ones in game. A course there needs to be work.

There's a reason I posted this in "game balance". ;) My girl's been hunting with a monk from TKs to the Rift, and I have sympathetic pains for how he's had to really push to keep up with me. Our hunting goes something like: E-wave/force barrier. Then 702, jab/punch/kick/grapple, rinse & repeat until creature is dead.

That works in a small group. That even works in a larger group if everyone is courteous. But it's not exactly balanced, and that's why UAC for monks is somewhat of a joke: you'd be better off as a rogue, or even a paladin with regards to TP costs and rewards at the higher levels.

Its a step in the right direction, though, and I am supremely happy that Finros (and the staff) took the suggestion to heart and made a change for the better.

L 48 rogue vs like level critter; the buckler barely slows her down, nor does her armor.

>>[Darkstone, Dungeon]
The floor is slimy under your feet, and very slippery. Water seems to be running in trickles down the corridor from the east. Scuttling noises fill the air, but with all the echoes in this intersection, you can't tell where they're coming from. You also see an iron door.
Obvious exits: east, south, west
H>
Loud clicking noises vibrate through you as a kiramon defender darts in.
H>kick def left leg
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to kick a kiramon defender!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have good positioning against a kiramon defender.
UAF: 281 vs UDF: 278 = 1.010 * MM: 73 + d100: 98 = 171
... and hit for 51 points of damage!
Wheel kick connects with the left leg, tearing into tendons and muscle.
The kiramon defender is knocked to the ground!
The kiramon defender is stunned!
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>hide
Roundtime: 3 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
HR>pun def head
You leap from hiding to strike!
You make a precise attempt to punch a kiramon defender!
Your attack is hindered by holding a glistening sea-blue buckler!
You have excellent positioning against a kiramon defender.
UAF: 281 vs UDF: 218 = 1.288 * MM: 85 + d100: 63 = 172
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Awesome punch to forehead snaps head straight back with a sickening CRUNCH!
The kiramon defender clicks one last time and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.<<

OK, now THAT's what I'd like to see a monk be able to do, but while attacking from the open. But that's not what does occur. I'd strongly suggest giving monks a serious professional bonus to their UAC attacks. Wearing cloth armor is bad enough of a handicap. Throw them a bone; increase UAF and MM values, and increase crit levels on damage done. (I tried adding S&H and ambush to my monk's skill set, and fell woefully short on TPs).


"So, what does that green line on the graph represent?"
"Oh, that's the projection of a hypothetical offspring from a union between Sauron and Cruella de Ville; we use that as a baseline for determining character alignment."

>Then 702, jab/punch/kick/grapple, rinse & repeat until creature is dead.

If pures were restricted to spells below about 12th level, they'd be decently balanced with monks. However, if they want to, they can throw more mana at a critter and blow it away immediately or even blow away a swarm immediately. The monk has to go through a period of plinking before the blowing it away option opens up. This enforced plinking severely depletes the monk's capacity outside of a sparse hunting area.

>OK, now THAT's what I'd like to see a monk be able to do, but while attacking from the open.

In a sparse hunting area the monk can do this. 13s when the dice roll favorably is about right. Generally at low to mid levels such areas can be found. Higher levels get trickier. We really need a spell like Provoke, but that turns down spawning rather than turning it up.

>With that said, what I am trying to say is you do not need a mass affect to be effective in a group hunt for bandits. I have witnessed a high level monk that easily keeps up with the rest of the group. Its doable and very effective in a group hunt. Saying monks are not effective just because they can't hit every bandit at once is simply wrong. I'm not sure if its due to laziness in tactics, the need to kill everything at once so the hunt is done in 5 seconds or some other reason? I can't know the motivations behind it. BUT with a little work in how a group works a monk has zero issues keeping up with the group.

Maybe try this quiz.
You are in a hunting group of 5 hunting an area where you regularly hunt solo without issues. Your partners all say they are well fried and have been for some time. You are muddled and have struggled to get your mind that full, because the moment you plink a critter the rest of the party finishes it off, and your plink isn't enough for more than token experience.
Do you
A) lie about the state of your mind in order to get the unpleasant experience over as fast as possible
B) tell them you are muddled but have no way of improving on that due to their inability to comprehend and act on how UAC works and insist that the party leaves, either with you muddled, or without you so that you get a chance to fry solo,
C) not have the faintest idea one way or another because you aren't a monk and never get put in that position.

Bear in mind that there are only about 4 players that have played a monk most of the way from 0 to cap, and one of those routinely chooses A. Just how sure are you that your external judgement of how a monk is doing is correct?

Bear in mind also that haste or Tonis can make a huge difference. A monk with a pocket bard or wizard doesn't have a problem keeping up. They may find the scroll gives them a headache, but they can close their eyes and spam punch and keep up. Its still a pretty horrible experience though.

<<Maybe try this quiz.>>

I'll chime in here. As far as completing bandit tasks, it is easy. I just hit one of each and presto it's done.

As far as frying (especially from belled) on a bandit task, it won't happen unless your team is trying to let you. Or if there's a wizard hasting you.

Keep in mind I haven't really played anything but monk since I came back, but with that being said, I don't find it frustrating to hunt solo or in groups. I agree that monks are obviously underpowered compared to the rest of the classes, but I got to cap with basic gear and a lot of that was soloing.

I guess I mean to say, not being the best doesn't mean you're worthless.

And monks are obviously the most classy. So.

-The mind behind Rowmi's eyes.

According to cman help qstr, the minimum cost is 8. If dagger and jab don't qualify for that, what does?