A quick look at the spells seems to confirm your math.

Cleric:
Bravery/Heroism = 40
Benediction = 51
91 total, plus 1 for every 10 ranks of Blessings Lore
Requirements: 1x Cleric circle at cap, 15 ranks of Major Spirit (very easy, nearly guaranteed by cap)

Empath
Bravery/Heroism = 40
Intensity = 55
95 total, plus 1 for every 10 ranks of Blessings Lore
Requirements: 1x Empath circle at cap, 15 ranks of Major Spirit (very easy, nearly guaranteed by cap)

Wizard
Elemental Targetting = 50
Elemental Focus = 63
113, without the possibility of self-cast Spirit Strike, however
Requirements: 1x Major Elemental at cap, 75 ranks of Minor Elemental (somewhat challenging, some builds will have this by cap)

Sorcerer
Elemental Targetting = 50
Curse of the Star = 38
88 total
Requirements: 1x Sorcerer circle at cap, 75 ranks of Minor Elemental (very rarely accomplished by cap)

I didn't even take Bolt AS into consideration a few months ago when I did a self-cast comparison, but the conclusions I came to then were that Sorcerers have the worst self-cast DS in the game, and BY FAR the worst self-cast melee AS in the game, not to mention limited melee combat applications. A little bit of math did indicate that post-cap Sorcerers might surpass similarly trained post-cap Empaths, but only slightly, and only with significant training in our least favored spell circle.

So . . . yet another stat in which we are at the bottom of the barrel. It also strikes me as odd that the maximum AS we can muster self-cast also has steeper training requirements (by the standard training of the profession) than others. I don't begrudge Wizards their best bolt AS, especially since it comes with the melee penalty imposed by Elemental Focus, and the lack of Spirit Strike. They also have the "second" hardest requirements for their outcome.

To echo a sentiment from a few months ago, and expand upon it:

Why do we have the worst self-cast DS (in all but a handful of situations), the worst self-cast melee AS, and the worst self-cast bolt AS? We don't have the "worst TD", in that we have a balanced Spirit and Elemental TD, but we hardly have the best TD either, in that Wizards have higher elemental TD and clerics and empaths have higher spirit TD (and thats fair, honestly, but it can't be counted for us, since we aren't better, only equal).


________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"

>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."

Then why isn't Charge Item and Enchant factored into Wizard balance? After all, they can enchant their own armor and weapons to 7x, so wouldn't that warrant a DS penalty of about 15 compared to other classes? They can get effectively permanent access to spells, even more long term than scrolls provide, through rechargable magic items, and can double-train MIU very easy to get tons of duration. Where is the penalty there?

Don't get me wrong. I don't think that should actually happen. But we shouldn't be bad because Scroll Infusion exists.
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>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"

>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."

>>Why do we have the worst self-cast DS (in all but a handful of situations), the worst self-cast melee AS, and the worst self-cast bolt AS?<<

Because you are paying for those years when sorcerers were overpowered; the Gms hate you. Or maybe because sorcerers just suck P

>>Wizard
Elemental Targetting = 50
Elemental Focus = 63
113, without the possibility of self-cast Spirit Strike, however
Requirements: 1x Major Elemental at cap, 75 ranks of Minor Elemental (somewhat challenging, some builds will have this by cap)<<

Meh; I never even use 513. Irrelevant to a warmage. I can still hit things with bolting; critter bolt DS is usually a fair amount less than their DS vs weapons. If I can hit them with bolts without using 513, sorcerers can hit them even better. Also note that I CAN use spirit stike; I just get some blue crystals and multi-charge them. Oh, and please note that sorcerers can use pure potions/211 imbeds, 513 scrolls, 215 items and all sorts of miscellaneous junk (enhancive items, signs/symbols/sigils etc.). Whoever collects the most toys gets the better bolt AS.

I know, I know ... you are just comparing the basic bolt AS adders of each profession; but really, by the time you get to cap you should have all sorts of nice toys to play with. Also, the bread and butter of sorcerous hunting is CS based spells. I suspect the designers just tacked on balefire as a sop to sorcerers who wanted to bolt.






The bells of Hell
go ting-a-ling-a-ling
for you but not for me

and getting 75 ranks in the minor elem circle is WAY post-cap, IMO. most of us get sorcerer ranks first.

~Moredin

we have to spend a more mana and do a more work for less AS. and IMO, elementalists should be better bolters than spiritualists.

1 bolt AS less than a cleric is way lower than where I think sorcerers should be.

~Moredin

and getting 75 ranks in the minor elem circle is WAY post-cap, IMO. most of us get sorcerer ranks first.

Well, I wouldn't say that; with the CS boost that 425 gives, most sorcs have 75 ranks of MnE by cap, or close to it, at least.

Doesn't negate the fact (not opinion, but numerical fact) that of all the pures and pure hybrids (clerics, sorcs, wizards and empaths, for those confused) sorcs have both the most expensive (mana wise) bolt spells and the worst AS. Obviously, someone has to be the worst, but by class focus/descriptions, I would say that should be empaths...

Of course that's made up by having the most powerful CS spells. Oh, wait, that's bards, followed closely by immolating wizards. Ah well.

I just want to add in my semi-regular plug for a bolt variant of 705 based on necro lore, necro-bolt, with a damage over time effect similar to holy bolt, but works on all things. It's not like it would be hard to code, the code already exists for holy bolt, nor would it be overpowering (if done right, with the correct DF and all)

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

>> I wasn't joking.

Ah, apologies, then.

>>I believe it was stated as a reason when this initially came up around the time the curse of the star was introduced as a bolt AS booster.

I recall it being opined by members, don't recall it being asserted by NIR. Could have missed it.

Flip side, though -- if it wasn't contested by NIR, then silence is often taken as concurrence, too.

I do recall one very important point that was made during that discussion in that context you offer, though, Dgry. It is more and more a challenge to 'buy in' on this point.

>>It only takes 1 outside spell to overtake the spiritualists.

This holds true in round robin fashion -- spiritualists only need 513, wizards only need 211 / 215, and we're back to the same perspective. These spells are generally available, and as a result the only 'benefit' Infusion carries in this scenario is that it is cast for cast 'easier' for the sorcerer to benefit from these spells.

Which started the dialog about the extra training / implements required to gain that benefit -- again positioning the sorcerer collective opinion that at best it is a wash, thus the sorcerer still remains bottom of the stack.

And again, here we are. For my part, it's a pickle. No doubt about it.

Doug

>Actually, my capped cleric hunts with a capped sorcerer on a regular basis. The sorcerer has a bolt AS a whole 1 lower than my cleric.

All other things being equal (Race, Stats, Society, outside spells), and the Cleric AND Sorcerer both being optimally trained for bolt AS (much harder to do for a Sorcerer), this would not be the ordinary scenario, however, the differen't wouldn't be all that much higher. A Cleric with no blessings lore would only have 3 extra points of bolt AS, but many Clerics DO, especially raising clerics, and that could account for a LOT more, I'd say as much at 10 extra.

And as mentioned, a Cleric can hit this "maximum bolt AS at spell ranks per level" as early as level 15, and then gradually increase as their Cleric circle rises. Sorcerers would have to 1x both Sorcerer circle AND Minor Elemental until level 75, which is very unusual and would gimp the Sorcerer in Sorcerer spell ranks and their already poor DS (because they need some Minor Spiritual, afterall, and it gives more DS than Minor Elemental).

________________________________
>Barnom exclaims, "I smell delicious!"

>Barnom says, "Like sage and nutmeg."

713 is the hardest hitting ball spell of all ball spells, based on DF. Whether it is worth 13 mana is a subjective opinion, of course. One benefit to 713 is the extra crits from demon support, if you go that route, but it is a PITA and like all sorcerous things requires components, at least to summon the demon initially, and then requires guild work if you ever want to bring your demon into town. And we all know how much a PITA guild work is. Regardless, 713 does hit hard.

Sorcerers do not currently have a variety of bolts. Same number as clerics and empaths (3: all 3 classes have 111 and the bolt version of 118, while sorcs have 713, clerics have 306 and superpaths have 1110 (which in and of itself is overpowered, hard hitting DF AND a follow on CS effect...) As has been shown, all other things being equal, sorcs have the lowest bolt AS, which admittedley, used to be even worse prior to some recent changes. Still the worst, though.

I agree, we need more bolt options. I'll repeat my call for a bolt version of 705 based on necro lore (aka necro bolt, with a follow on acid effect like 306)

I would prefer two more bolt options instead of just one, but I would be happy with at least one. Certainly, sorcs shouldn't have as many bolt options as wizards, but as a mix between spiritualists and elementalists, we should at least be better than the spiritualists.

As for training, my experience is that most sorcs keep 400s at level, 700s at level +20 and 100s as they can, after getting 120.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

I agree, we need more bolt options. I'll repeat my call for a bolt version of 705 based on necro lore (aka necro bolt, with a follow on acid effect like 306)

I would prefer two more bolt options instead of just one, but I would be happy with at least one. Certainly, sorcs shouldn't have as many bolt options as wizards, but as a mix between spiritualists and elementalists, we should at least be better than the spiritualists.

Yes, I quoted myself.

I was thinking what would make a good second bolt spell (if two more bolt options were implemented, with a bolt version of 705 being the first) and I thought of a bolt version of 719....

Unlocked via having 25 total ranks of elemental lores (of any kind), cast for 10 mana, bolt, not a ball, so no splashing, with the DF of 1709, and with possible extra crits. The first crit would be based on the damage, and would be whatever element the sorc is attuned to, or random. Each other element would get a chance for a crit based on the number of ranks of that lore. So, 10 ranks of air lore, 10% of an extra vacuum crit. 5 ranks of fire lore, 5% of an extra fire crit. 100 ranks of earth lore (obviously not very common on a sorc), 100% of an extra crush crit.

Treads a bit on wizard territory, but as we are supposed to be hybrids of spirits and elements, that makes sense.

Too bad it seems sorc dev has stopped.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

two things in this discussion keep jumping out at me...

1) wizards only need 211 / 215, and we're back to the same perspective. These spells are generally available,

You're half right. 211 is fairly common and can be bought as pure potions. 215, is much more rare and far higher cost wise to charge. Along with 219, and ignoring the no longer available 318, it's the highest cost spell I've found when charging.

2) Sorcerer bolt AS is lower and mana costs are higher, but the DF is generally higher, and our disabler costs are lower. 8 mana and the critter never stands again. that's 50 DS for 8 mana. No other pure profession that I can think of can boast that. yes, spiritualists have bind for 14 mana, wizards have boil for 18, and of course they can ewave of tremor, but that's just RT, at best. Empaths can bone shatter for 6, but again, that doesn't ensure the critter is on it's back afterwards.

There's nothing terribly wrong with balefire from a balance persepective IMO. If you want to be 100% bolter...roll up a wizard. I don't believe balefire was ever designed to create a new class of sorcerers who primarily bolted. Like any other spell, it's part of the arsenal, and used with a little bit of strategy is amazing.

2.5) the extra cost for demon bolts really doesn't factor in. 1) you can fill the demon's head with mana while you're sitting on a node resting. if it runs out mid hunt and you can't must the extra mana, it doesn't make the spell useless, just takes out the extra punch.

D) None of this changes the fact that Sorcerers are still in need of the area we are truly best in...but Balefire and bolt AS just isn't the place to spend the energy on.

>Because you are paying for those years when sorcerers were overpowered; the Gms hate you

This may be close enough to true, but when sorcerers were that overpowered we were still paying hourly for internet and empaths couldn't hunt creatures they could learn from without a group. Time to move on.

--Jurp