Greetings,

All week, I've been working hard for the adventurer's guild in Icemule.

And all week... I've been affected by mass attack spells. One was arms grabbing and pulling me down every time I has a task that brings me through the glacier. Been injured, but not killed. Another time, on the Trail, I gots hits by nature's fury (I lived, but my partner died--freshly Dreavened too!) and...

Just a few minutes ago, while escorting down the Trail, I was killed by a bard? song? See below.

I was advised by Rohese and Elidi to post here.

Here is my case:

Mass attack spells should NOT target players unless they are specifically targeted by the caster.

It was established that the players attacking me, did not do so "intentionally." This being the case, ALL mass spells should be immediately modified to NOT target players unless the caster specifically targets them.

There is precedent for this: berserk. Berserk won't target another player. In fact, berserk won't even allow me to enter a room occupied by a player not in my group--unless chasing a creature that ran into that room. So, if players wanted to be mean, they could box a berserker warrior into one room.

How many casters would want a claidh-wielding berserker running about cutting everyone down? Yeah, they wouldn't want that.

Elidi and I established that most players don't want to harm other players. So, according to policy, https://gswiki.play.net/Policy#Abusive.2FDisruptive_Behavior , "Because GemStone IV is a multi-player game, there can sometimes be a conflict between an individual player's idea of entertainment and that of the majority of the players as a whole. In such situations, the majority will be given the greatest weight." Most players' idea of entertainment does not include killing off unsuspecting players walking by.

It has been written here, https://gswiki.play.net/Wizard#Major_Elemental , that the mass spell meteor storm sends a "warning to GameMasters due to its potential for abuse." This should be done for every mass spell until the spells no longer "unintentionally" target players. Mayhaps then, the gods will see the frequency of deaths and injuries.

In the policy, here https://gswiki.play.net/Policy#Game_Mechanics_and_Changes , it states: "Simutronics has a responsibility to preserve the balance of the game for the majority of the players, and furthermore, to maintain a level of challenge that is adequate for this type of product. Therefore, Simutronics will routinely add new rules, modify existing rules, and even go back and change new additions that did not function as expected."

Unless the GM's expect casters to harm/kill players, this request to make ALL mass attack spells NOT target players (unless the player is specifically targeted) should be implemented immediately.

In the policy, here, https://gswiki.play.net/Policy#Player_vs_Player_Conflict , it says: "There are elements in GemStone IV that promote a competitive environment. GemStone IV has been designed to promote competition as player vs. creature, or player vs. puzzle, and not generally player vs. player."

When casters use mass spells to attack EVERYTHING in the room, this becomes player vs player. The policy outlines that pvp should be restricted to gladiatorial matches or role play. The policy clearly states: "What is not acceptable is to initiate combat against unsuspecting victims, especially to prey upon weaker players for the singular enjoyment of the attacker." When a mas spell is cast on an unsuspecting victim, this is an initiation of combat. Yet, "pvp is not the design of the game." Weaker players take the brunt of casters' in ability to kill without killing everything. That is a combination of the player's lack of skill (as they should know not to cast mass attacks in public areas) and programming error with respect to the stated policies.

You heartily ask, "Is it not abusive to cast a known mass attack spell where people travel?"
>
Elidi says, "Towns don't have critters for players to hunt (except maybe in an invasion). So there's no call for using attack spells in towns."
>
Elidi says, "Out in the wilds, which is anywhere outside the town gates, players can be hunting, and using mass attack spells."
>
You heartily ask, "So... what am I to do... hire assassins to start killing mass casters?"
>
Elidi says, "No, that's definitely not something you should ever do." <-- Policy actually allows it here: As a rule of thumb, Character vs. Character (role-playing -CvC) combat is acceptable, while Player vs. Player (OOC or disruptive - PvP) is not. <-- As long as it is "role-played."
>
You heartily say, "I mean... I gets killed and harmed by lack of forthought in magic use, and that's okay."
>
You heartily say, "But... ifs I kills them because... this is a conflict."
>
You heartily say, "Conflict should not be allowed to begin because of the programming."
>
You heartily say, "I know these players not trying to kills me... at least that is what I presume."
>
Elidi says, "I'm not saying it's okay that you were killed, it's frustrating. But if they weren't targeting you, and it was unintentional, it was an accident. Killing them in retaliation or hiring assassins to do it on your behalf is against policy." <-- not true according to policy referenced above.
>
You heartily say, "However, when it happens repeatedly, that is against the policy." <-- I've been attacked by mass magics nearly every day for the last week (sorcs, rangers, now bards?) along WELL-traveled roads. These roads should be treated like Town and the culprits duly punished. One of my party members was killed last night by someone else cast nature's fury--"unintentionally."

Bottom line:

Mass spells cause unintentional conflict because of the programming. The spells can be modified to not target players unless the player is specifically targeted. (if you wants group fights, allow mass spells to target anyone in the target's group as well--mass buffs are the precedent here. But, this still requires a PLAYER to target another PLAYER rather than improper programming that is in conflict with stated policies mentioned above.

The precedent is berserk. It does not target other players. Cut and paste the appropriate code into all the mass attack spells. Or, use the code from mass buff spells (guards, blurs, colors) to modify the mass attack spell code.

If you think this is too much, ask yourself this: How would you feel or how you think new players would feel if they are following the rules but are being attacked daily by other players with no enforcement being done? This is not the first time this has happened to me. And I'm sure it happens to many others. But I have begun reaching my limits on this matter.

I'm playing to learn how to use this game as a tool for teaching in my local county. I think text-based games can help promote reading, writing, typing, programming (scripting), math, science, critical thinking, conflict resolution, web design, communication skills and much more. I am developing a webpage of my adventures to present to the county showing the benefits of this project. I am not being paid by Simutronics to do this. I think this is a fine game and I think that even if a fraction of the over 42,000 students and 17,000 staff in the county obtain accounts, it would be beneficial to Simutronics and it would help to expand the game.

However, it is difficult to promote this idea to an audience when the Programming of the game is not in-line with the Policies of the game.

I hope this is read and my words considered.

Sincerely,

- Kotin


Most recent attack from a mass attack spell (player name omitted):

[Icemule Trail, Tree Path]
A snowy owl glides silently among the trees above the path, searching for a likely victim in the falling snow. The ghostly figure suddenly dives, then rises--a tiny animal grasped in its talons--and quickly spirals up out of the trees and wings its way home. You also see the <player> disk, a half-elven thief that is lying down, a giantman rogue that is lying down, a human thief that is lying down, a troll-claw, a reinforced shield and a broadsword.
Also here: Ambassador <player>
Obvious paths: west, down
>
<player> skillfully begins to weave another verse into his harmony.
CS: +439 - TD: +159 + CvA: -21 + d100: +55 - -5 == +319
Warding failed!
Waves of sonic vibration wash over you with tremendous force!
Sound waves disrupt you for 153 damage!
... 135 points of damage!
Your eye explodes shattering the skull into a thousand pieces.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
You feel your extra strength departing.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The air about you stops shimmering.
You return to normal color.
You no longer feel so dextrous.
The light blue glow leaves you.
The deep blue glow leaves you.
You sense that your attunement to the minds of others has ceased.
You become solid again.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

You mentally give a sigh of relief as you remember that the Goddess Lorminstra owes you a favor.

...departing in 13 mins...

CS: +439 - TD: +340 + CvA: -1 + d100: +25 == +123
Warding failed!
A half-elven thief reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 35 damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Gaping hole torn in the half-elven thief's back exposing ribs.
The half-elven thief is stunned!

CS: +439 - TD: +333 + CvA: -10 + d100: +92 == +188
Warding failed!
A giantman rogue reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 74 damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Heart explodes rupturing the giantman rogue's chest.
The giantman rogue rolls over and dies.

CS: +439 - TD: +348 + CvA: -2 + d100: +82 == +171
Warding failed!
A human thief reels under the force of the sonic vibrations!
Sound waves disrupt for 64 damage!
... 55 points of damage!
The human thief's head vibrates violently, before melting away in a rush of heat.
The human thief rolls over and dies.

A halfling traveller arrives, following you.

<player> says, "Ack."

[You have failed your current Adventurer's Guild task.]
A halfling traveller flees, her eyes wide with terror!

<player> says, "No non o."

You heartily ask, "Why?"

<player> says, "Kang bandits, I screwed up."

You heartily say, "Bandits not starts with a K."

<player> says, "I did an area spell becaue I was hurt."

(healer noted <player> was bleeding)

You heartily say, "This is a populated trail."

You heartily ask, "Is my traveler dead too?"

You heartily say, "Yep.. failed."

<player> says, "Yes."



You heartily say, "The bandits were all already laying down."

Yep... the bandits were already laying down when I walked in. If you hurt and gots the enemies down... run home... don't kill innocent passersby.

I would love GS to adopt the DR spell-casting standards to be usable for spellsongs. Clearly there are other spells that would benefit, too.

CAST [TARGET NAME] ... no change, how it works now.
CAST CREATURE ... only hits creatures with you in the room
CAST AREA ... open area WHAMMY, like CAST by itself works now.

With all the wonderful friendly changes that have come to GS in the last 20 years, I think this one is due. If you MEAN to hit other characters, then you have a way to do it on purpose. For the most part, people in GemStone don't run around trying to kill others, let alone younger level players.

These area attack spells are a real mess on public roads, which seem to be the only place bandits are - and bandits are a big enough mess all on their own.

For a while, I never used any songspell that could hit someone in these busy places, but ... one's opponents get faster, more deadly, and more numerous as levels increase, and I have needed to start using them. :(

~L.

---
Rohese: "... the TownCrier (tune in if you haven’t, it’s without doubt the best thing to ever happen on LNet)"
;tune towncrier

TownCrier News Submission link: http://bit.ly/TownCrierNews
TownCrier News Dailies via Email: http://bit.ly/2ivAJfw

There is no reason to "reduce effectiveness." Modify the code to that of Berserk or Mass spell buffs. Can still has devastating magics that don't kill other players.


https://kotin17.wixsite.com/kotin

Lot of wizard spells are the same way.

Heck, grasp used to be way worse, stuck around a while after the sorc left.

Area spells hitting players isn't a bug, and yes it's been mentioned to dev many times for many years that it's something players don't enjoy. These spells are designed to be unfriendly to players. Even spells released recently have this aspect (grasp and cone of elements are both relatively recent releases).

Oh, I agree it's hypocritical, and I've died more than a few times to it. What sucks even more is that combat is balanced around players being expected to use these spells.

Thank you BRANDTJRT,

https://gswiki.play.net/Cone_of_Elements_(518) "When CAST normally, Cone will ignore other player characters (PCs) in the room." ALL mass attack spells should be like this. The programmers can cut and paste code directly from this spell!


Furthermore, I do use the thought net and I do announce that I am "escorting from Icemule to <destination>" and when clearing bandits "The Bandit Cleavers of Elanthia has been dispatched to clear the Trail of bandits." I even update when the escort is long, informing of my current location. I do this for two reasons: 1 to encourage group escorting/role play and 2 to make my position known. Therefore, casters are made aware that there will be at least one player on the road.

With this knowledge, how can it be "unintentional" that they cast a known player-hazardous, mass attack spell with knowledge of other player's nearby?

It in incumbent upon them to pay attentions to the thought net. I know most players follow that lich lord, but the lich lord is not an official part of the game. Players should be able to use OFFICIAL game functions to enjoy the game.

Not only should the caster be aware, the caster should be held accountable for the action.

https://kotin17.wixsite.com/kotin

I didn't recall Cone having been changed; that's excellent.

It used to be entirely player-UNfriendly. Starsnuffer was notorious for wasting a ton of people in the middle of town when he hit the wrong spell and racked up a couple million in court fees instantly. (Back in the day when a million coins was real money.)

Then it got changed, and was entirely player-friendly.

.

Having it be changed, AGAIN, to now give both options...

...yeah, that is definitely the direction spell design should be revamped to.

You are wrong, Archsenex, at least according to documentation: "When CAST normally, Cone will ignore other player characters (PCs) in the room. When EVOKEd, Cone will cast a group-friendly version against more potential targets, including hidden and invisible ones, which will become visible upon a successful hit."

https://gswiki.play.net/Cone_of_Elements_(518)

In both cases, it is supposed to ignore players.

- Kotin

https://kotin17.wixsite.com/kotin

I would be delighted to get that split for the BardSongs, because then they would be usable (like in Gladiatorial Arena combats) still, against opponents.

I've been agreeing with you the whole time, that mass spells shouldn't hit players. I'm just trying to say that this has been requested for a long, long time, with no sign of much movement on the part of dev to agree. And cone is the exception that it has a player-friendly version at all. Grasp, Slow, bard spells, etc. all don't have the option.

>There is precedent for this: berserk. Berserk won't target another player.

In support of this, I'd add that MSTRIKE is also player-friendly. Most combat maneuvers won't redirect an attack onto a PC. Shield Trample, I think, is also player-friendly. Maybe there are player-unfriendly CMANs out there, but I can't think of one.

Unfortunately, I do think certain spells would need to be less effective if they could be spammed without consequence. I've been hit more by open implosion than song of sonic disruption, but I think that's because it also affects adjacent rooms. Grasp of the grave seems to hit everyone, often.

<<https://gswiki.play.net/Cone_of_Elements_(518) "When CAST normally, Cone will ignore other player characters (PCs) in the room." ALL mass attack spells should be like this. The programmers can cut and paste code directly from this spell!

I'm not a DEV person at all, but I just wanted to point out that it is absolutely NEVER as easy to code as one can say it is without seeing behind the scenes; especially when the thought is "all you have to do is just cut/paste". With 20+ years of code written for game mechanics there are a lot of spells that are coded in probably a vast majority of ways. So cutting and pasting code from one spell to another would be an extremely slim chance of all that is needed.


~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er

<<Don't the spells have some targeting system? Why can't the targeting systems be cut (copied, actually) from spells where it works (buffs, Cone of Lightning, Berserk) and pasted to where it doesn't (all the mass attack spells that hit players)?

Without seeing behind the scenes it just isn't as easy as one thinks it is. We're talking about a game that has code written on top of code for over 20 years with multiple programmers and programming logic styles. So many things are intertwined whereas you could easily break something in one area (or more) while trying to "fix" something in another area.

GS is probably one of the most intricately written text-based games out there.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, in concept/theory. But in practice there's no simple "cut/paste/TADA!" change.

Personally, and this is from my own experience as a player, I like that there are spells out there that are dangerous to anyone and everyone when out hunting. It's teaches people to be careful in what they cast when and where and why. And I like the added danger flavor.


~Aulis
Platinum Co-Guru
Forums Manager
QC'er

>>These attacks are becoming a near-everyday occurrence. I don't see how this is NOT abuse. The game is not intended for pvp, yet pvp exist in a one-sided manner--against the non-caster of mass attack spells.

That may just be me, but if it's constantly happening, it sounds like it is a problem with that individual. So that is one thing that can be fixed.

In any case, one thing to consider in updating spells is not everything is being worked on at once. With wizard spells updated recently, there was the updates with 518. For some, they may get that when next worked on, but between bureaucracy and work on what's most broken first. I have no idea what all is being worked on now, but some things could be getting worked on even. At least, I am hoping for that, or additional smiting for irresponsible types at least.

_ _ _
Wyrom gestures at you, causing you to explode.

I'm not advocating for or against but I will suggest that the current design doesn't necessarily discourage some individuals from using said spells judiciously or with any modicum of caution.

-- Robert

Damp deeply exclaims, "It's a wizard's locked project!"

The more I think about this the more I have to wonder why has it been this way for so long? The community in general has come to accept this as "normal". The responsible player misses out on their powerful spells. The irresponsible player suffers zero consequences for non consensual PVP.

Having been on both sides of the issue it sucks.



Chad, player of a few

When an AOE spell is cast and it hits a player outside of your group....all I can think of is this quote "He shouldn't have been standing there."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1ZUC_oUS8

>>"He shouldn't have been standing there."

I'd offer the observation that perhaps a component of the 'keep AOE lethal where possible' mentality is that the character should think about the potential for harming others and perhaps not use that spell under that condition. Kind of like a regulator without coding it.

Said differently, if you're in an isolated hunting area, who's gonna know? But if you're on a frequently trafficked road - perhaps a different approach is called for.

It kind of falls apart as the game becomes less 'social', though.

For the purpose of this discussion, however, put me firmly in the camp of 'up the lethality, and up the consequences of failure to think'. Contrarian, true - but more 'social' than 'race to the top'.

Doug

Why should <these group of spells over here> be held apart, though?
MStrike, for example, from a capped character would wax many of the players in the game, yet they are completely immune because it only targets creatures.
Same with Berserk.

There's a big, big difference between "getting enough protection to be safe from the creatures in that area" [and their AS/CS], and "getting enough protection to be safe from the people hunting the creatures in that area" [where the AS/CS is going to be 50+ points higher, to overcome the creatures' DS/TD reliably].

.

Okay, fine: we get that it not simply a case of "pull code from that spell over there." Sure.

But there ARE Dev resources, there ARE back-end coding resources, there ARE profession specialists, there ARE the magic team members.
And there ARE people getting killed on a regular basis by these fricking spells.
Use the one, to fix the other, and call it solved.

Then leave design notes informing future hires to do it THIS way (cast/evoke/channel for one effect, <another one> for different), or else.