Well, that certainly took less time than I had hoped.
I'm going to try to explain by taking the high road. This usually results in feedback about lecturing, when what is intended is a non-judging, careful explanation of my position. I find the less agreement the points are greeted with, the more judgement (especially about lecturing) is cast upon it. But so be it.
First up:
>>statement like "Immo is a mutant build" isn't being triggered
There are only two reasons I can think of for this type of reaction to my post. The high road suggests that I ignore the potential for the second reason and look within my own actions and consequences first. It would appear that my calling Immolation a mutant build and joking you were triggered by it is offensive to you, Methais. I must admit that I didn't worry about it overly much given your publicly stated position about carrying less about how people say things - but I erred. I apologize for offending you with this.
There have been several classic builds in my time here that qualify as 'mutant' in my estimation. You may measure things differently, and I'll respect that. However, for me, any build that is designed purposefully to exploit a single spell (519 / 515 / 506 & 514 in GS3) outcome and sacrifices other skills or spell capability is a 'mutant' build. There are other types of mutant builds, as well - but this should suffice for our purposes. Even today, I'm comfortable with the war-mage being considered a mutant build, despite the contrasting to Gandalf as an archetype, and despite my having explored all these mutant builds myself. Here, mutant means a significant benefit that probably isn't intentionally a part of the game's design. And I'm very comfortable with my definition since all three of these builds have suffered 'course corrections' to them, which suggests they needed to be brought in line with the game's design. That's hindsight, though - and so it's kind of cheap to offer.
>>The irony of this though, since just yesterday you were the one throwing out accusations of dodging a question. A question that wasn't actually dodged even.
I felt as though I had provided exactly the same type of tangential irreverent answer to your question that you provided to mine - specifically a 'mirror' response. You didn't acknowledge consideration for the value of base effects of spells in our improvement suggestions dialog - you simply stated your opinion for one spell (in a general point) that it was garbage before, after and now. I didn't acknowledge that you might consider an Immolation build as a 'pure' build by simply stating my opinion that I didn't exclude war-mages (one build) from the discussion. Now, it appears that by offering you the offense above that I apologize for, you are escalating. I hope my explanation of why Immolation made my mutant build list plus the apology allows for a more reasonable dialog. I wouldn't have thought especially you would care about how I said things, but no matter - I'm sorry.
As part of the exchange, I would carefully consider how you might measure a mutant build - and if offered I will strive to keep that in mind in any future communications - it isn't my intent to offer you offense by saying things you might not like. I'd also hope for a clear-cut response from you to my question. But I don't require it - the reason I don't is up next.
>>Perhaps you should stick to the actual topic
I think, however, that this point is where I will draw a hard line. It would appear to me that there are some who believe that everyone else should be held to a standard they themselves are not willing to be accountable for. I have called (and continue to call) that behavior 'hypocrisy'. We're at a very exciting (and I'm sure, nerve-wracking for the staff) time in our community growth. We, the community, have been given much broader latitude to explore how we will communicate with each other. I think we like that, as a community. Now, I'm a fairly simple guy - there's a community standard, and I'll live within it or I won't be a part of the community.
However, and I want to be very clear about this - there is exactly and precisely one standard for the entire community. If irony, sarcasm, lack of consideration, humorous interjection, dramatic overstatement, labeling, rhetoric, off-color poking, disregard for others opinions and general disdain mark the tolerable and acceptable standard for the community, then that is the standard to which I accept being held accountable to by others, and no other.
I don't like that, personally. And in general, I will strive to hold myself to a higher standard. I've made attempts to point out how damaging that type of community interaction can be. This will count as another such attempt. I've ignored it when it happens (you'll just have to believe me, because I don't save responses I decided weren't worth posting). I've tried to brush past it (like your taking my thread off-topic on these matters we're covering here). I feel somewhat justified in that regard because more and more names in red are suggesting they don't like what they are seeing as well. A few of us seem to be missing that point, but it screams out to me whenever I see it. That's hindsight, though - and so it also is kind of cheap to offer.
But I will not tolerate another community member attempting to hold me to any standard other than the community's standard. I would not expect any member of the community to tolerate it, either. If you feel 'I should' perhaps we together can reinforce that concept throughout the community and work together to improve it, each in our way. But if you feel 'I should' yet you have no need for such consideration, then that double standard is unacceptable. If irreverent, off-color joking exchanges interjected at will are to be tolerated, then I accept that standard and will not complain. Nor will I be held to a different one.
Doug
DOUG
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: The Single Target High Kill Ratio Challenge - Brief Tangent
04/29/2017 12:03 AM CDT
> It would appear that my calling Immolation a mutant build and joking you were triggered by it is offensive to you, Methais.
Actually I thought you were being serious. Because you didn't seem like you were joking. So I asked you to explain and got some ridiculous response.
I don't know why you keep saying I'm all triggered and offended over it when in reality I was simply asking how you came to that conclusion about Immo builds, because all you're doing is repeatedly arguing a point that doesn't exist. If anything I was sitting here scratching my head. I can appreciate a good trolling though, so hats off.
>I wouldn't have thought especially you would care about how I said things
That's because I don't. My response would have been the same regardless of "how" you said it. Barring the whole "I was just joking" revelation anyway.
>I think, however, that this point is where I will draw a hard line. It would appear to me that there are some who believe that everyone else should be held to a standard they themselves are not willing to be accountable for. I have called (and continue to call) that behavior 'hypocrisy'.
What I was saying by that is just quit obsessing over picking apart every syllable of a post when it really does no good for and is usually irrelevant to the actual discussion and almost always ends up derailing things. A 40 paragraph response isn't going to change that, and it has nothing to do with anything you just said. We'll probably never agree on this so it's pointless to keep posting back and forth about it. You can keep thinking I'm triggered or whatever. Unless it's going to get us buffed or nerfed, it really doesn't matter.
>I feel somewhat justified in that regard because more and more names in red are suggesting they don't like what they are seeing as well.
Can't imagine why...
>But I will not tolerate another community member attempting to hold me to any standard other than the community's standard. I would not expect any member of the community to tolerate it, either. If you feel 'I should' perhaps we together can reinforce that concept throughout the community and work together to improve it, each in our way. But if you feel 'I should' yet you have no need for such consideration, then that double standard is unacceptable. If irreverent, off-color joking exchanges interjected at will are to be tolerated, then I accept that standard and will not complain. Nor will I be held to a different one.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/acaHbMWwwaFBS/giphy.gif
Now back to wizard stuff...
>However, for me, any build that is designed purposefully to exploit a single spell (519 / 515 / 506 & 514 in GS3) outcome and sacrifices other skills or spell capability is a 'mutant' build.
What was being sacrificed though? Casting old trash Boil Earth on multiple targets with earth lore? 514 being a little less garbage while still being garbage?
Other than air lore for Haste, you weren't really missing out on much by not picking up any other lores. And even then, Haste with all those MjE ranks was plenty enough to swing most weapons in 1 second with no air lore. Rapid 901 builds still obliterated everything just as easily too. And water lore...yeah.
Enchanting? I had 67 wizard ranks and never failed a cast, and did plenty of 7x fusions and always had a major project going.
913 bonus? Most things usually died fast enough to make up for it. 919 is also easily affordable when needed at cap.
At that time, an Immolate mage could still perform very well in the other 2 main builds (war mage, shock mage) without really having to sacrifice anything. Unless you just really wanted extra disk space or something, there was very little reason to not go all in on fire. And in those cases, 178 fire/24 air is fine and the difference from 202 is pretty much unnoticeable. War mage is assuming you're far enough post cap to pick up a weapon, but with a shock build it didn't matter. Rapid 901 builds only cared about INCANT 515 and INCANT 901 x487320472729. It really didn't care if you had air/water lore or not. Immolate builds on the other hand, cared very much if you had fire lore. And having 906 hit like 910/510 was icing on the cake.
If anything, it was a "What's the point to any of the other builds?" build because it can handle those too. This wasn't a problem with Immolate being OP. It was a problem with the other lores having too little to offer. And for some reason the solution was to take away our both builds, leaving a void that still exists today.
Speaking of 906, that spell was used a lot too as a finisher in the Immo build. If I wasn't casting 519, I was usually casting 906. People have this misconception that every time you cast 519 at something the target died. This was far from the case, and when Immolate didn't kill, 906 was the finisher, and its increased DF is what often made it not require a second cast. Immolate was the meat of the build, but enhanced 906 was the fries and drink. Because America.
So there we have it. Even by your own definition, Immolate is not a mutant build. It is a specialization build. A specialization build that specializes in fire. You sacrificed little to nothing by having it, and lost a lot by not having it. Now that build and shock mage builds are gone with nothing left in its place and they wonder why a lot of wizards are upset. 917 is great vs. squishy targets. It's not so great against not so squishy targets.
>I understand this won't be a popular suggestion, but maybe we could resolve this by removing instant kill altogether in favor of crits. Isn't that how weapons work?
When I'm saying instant kill, I'm referring to a combination of instant kill procs and crit deaths that happen frequently enough to consider it a reliable kill spell. I'm assuming Fleurs and whoever else means something along those lines as well.
I pretty much never expected to bleed something out with one cast of Immolate back when it was still a reliable kill spell. It technically could now with a bunch of fire lore on a low TD target with a high end roll and a bunch of luck with the concussion damage, but not with any sort of reliability at all. I see it happen, but very rarely, and is usually against ice/water elementals which are weak to fire.
If Immolate did concussion damage on par with 317, we might not even be having this conversation. But Estild buffed the concussion damage once already shortly after the nerf, so I'm not gonna sit around expecting him to do it again, and I'm pretty sure he decided "no" on a 240 style booster.
~ Methais
Actually I thought you were being serious. Because you didn't seem like you were joking. So I asked you to explain and got some ridiculous response.
I don't know why you keep saying I'm all triggered and offended over it when in reality I was simply asking how you came to that conclusion about Immo builds, because all you're doing is repeatedly arguing a point that doesn't exist. If anything I was sitting here scratching my head. I can appreciate a good trolling though, so hats off.
>I wouldn't have thought especially you would care about how I said things
That's because I don't. My response would have been the same regardless of "how" you said it. Barring the whole "I was just joking" revelation anyway.
>I think, however, that this point is where I will draw a hard line. It would appear to me that there are some who believe that everyone else should be held to a standard they themselves are not willing to be accountable for. I have called (and continue to call) that behavior 'hypocrisy'.
What I was saying by that is just quit obsessing over picking apart every syllable of a post when it really does no good for and is usually irrelevant to the actual discussion and almost always ends up derailing things. A 40 paragraph response isn't going to change that, and it has nothing to do with anything you just said. We'll probably never agree on this so it's pointless to keep posting back and forth about it. You can keep thinking I'm triggered or whatever. Unless it's going to get us buffed or nerfed, it really doesn't matter.
>I feel somewhat justified in that regard because more and more names in red are suggesting they don't like what they are seeing as well.
Can't imagine why...
>But I will not tolerate another community member attempting to hold me to any standard other than the community's standard. I would not expect any member of the community to tolerate it, either. If you feel 'I should' perhaps we together can reinforce that concept throughout the community and work together to improve it, each in our way. But if you feel 'I should' yet you have no need for such consideration, then that double standard is unacceptable. If irreverent, off-color joking exchanges interjected at will are to be tolerated, then I accept that standard and will not complain. Nor will I be held to a different one.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/acaHbMWwwaFBS/giphy.gif
Now back to wizard stuff...
>However, for me, any build that is designed purposefully to exploit a single spell (519 / 515 / 506 & 514 in GS3) outcome and sacrifices other skills or spell capability is a 'mutant' build.
What was being sacrificed though? Casting old trash Boil Earth on multiple targets with earth lore? 514 being a little less garbage while still being garbage?
Other than air lore for Haste, you weren't really missing out on much by not picking up any other lores. And even then, Haste with all those MjE ranks was plenty enough to swing most weapons in 1 second with no air lore. Rapid 901 builds still obliterated everything just as easily too. And water lore...yeah.
Enchanting? I had 67 wizard ranks and never failed a cast, and did plenty of 7x fusions and always had a major project going.
913 bonus? Most things usually died fast enough to make up for it. 919 is also easily affordable when needed at cap.
At that time, an Immolate mage could still perform very well in the other 2 main builds (war mage, shock mage) without really having to sacrifice anything. Unless you just really wanted extra disk space or something, there was very little reason to not go all in on fire. And in those cases, 178 fire/24 air is fine and the difference from 202 is pretty much unnoticeable. War mage is assuming you're far enough post cap to pick up a weapon, but with a shock build it didn't matter. Rapid 901 builds only cared about INCANT 515 and INCANT 901 x487320472729. It really didn't care if you had air/water lore or not. Immolate builds on the other hand, cared very much if you had fire lore. And having 906 hit like 910/510 was icing on the cake.
If anything, it was a "What's the point to any of the other builds?" build because it can handle those too. This wasn't a problem with Immolate being OP. It was a problem with the other lores having too little to offer. And for some reason the solution was to take away our both builds, leaving a void that still exists today.
Speaking of 906, that spell was used a lot too as a finisher in the Immo build. If I wasn't casting 519, I was usually casting 906. People have this misconception that every time you cast 519 at something the target died. This was far from the case, and when Immolate didn't kill, 906 was the finisher, and its increased DF is what often made it not require a second cast. Immolate was the meat of the build, but enhanced 906 was the fries and drink. Because America.
So there we have it. Even by your own definition, Immolate is not a mutant build. It is a specialization build. A specialization build that specializes in fire. You sacrificed little to nothing by having it, and lost a lot by not having it. Now that build and shock mage builds are gone with nothing left in its place and they wonder why a lot of wizards are upset. 917 is great vs. squishy targets. It's not so great against not so squishy targets.
>I understand this won't be a popular suggestion, but maybe we could resolve this by removing instant kill altogether in favor of crits. Isn't that how weapons work?
When I'm saying instant kill, I'm referring to a combination of instant kill procs and crit deaths that happen frequently enough to consider it a reliable kill spell. I'm assuming Fleurs and whoever else means something along those lines as well.
I pretty much never expected to bleed something out with one cast of Immolate back when it was still a reliable kill spell. It technically could now with a bunch of fire lore on a low TD target with a high end roll and a bunch of luck with the concussion damage, but not with any sort of reliability at all. I see it happen, but very rarely, and is usually against ice/water elementals which are weak to fire.
If Immolate did concussion damage on par with 317, we might not even be having this conversation. But Estild buffed the concussion damage once already shortly after the nerf, so I'm not gonna sit around expecting him to do it again, and I'm pretty sure he decided "no" on a 240 style booster.
~ Methais
DOUG
Re: The Single Target High Kill Ratio Challenge - Brief Tangent
04/29/2017 08:31 AM CDT
>>So there we have it.
Excellent, thank you for sharing your perspective. When addressing you specifically, this will be a specialization build discussion - so you don't go all srs and schtuff. You're no fun like this. And you don't have to go all srs and schtuff when I use it casually in general discussion. No AFE will change what it is.
>>Even by your own definition,
Naw, my definition is my own, it's complete, and took 1 paragraph to explain. Immo to me is a mutant build and to you a specialization build. But we like labels!
>>Can't imagine why...
Yep, that's usually one of the first symptoms others see.
Thanks for the chat - now that we're level set, I'm off to respond to your "Doug Show" dig. Should be fun. Well, for me anyway.
Doug
Excellent, thank you for sharing your perspective. When addressing you specifically, this will be a specialization build discussion - so you don't go all srs and schtuff. You're no fun like this. And you don't have to go all srs and schtuff when I use it casually in general discussion. No AFE will change what it is.
>>Even by your own definition,
Naw, my definition is my own, it's complete, and took 1 paragraph to explain. Immo to me is a mutant build and to you a specialization build. But we like labels!
>>Can't imagine why...
Yep, that's usually one of the first symptoms others see.
Thanks for the chat - now that we're level set, I'm off to respond to your "Doug Show" dig. Should be fun. Well, for me anyway.
Doug
DRUMPEL
Re: The Single Target High Kill Ratio Challenge - Brief Tangent
04/29/2017 08:48 AM CDT
>What was being sacrificed though? Casting old trash Boil Earth on multiple targets with earth lore? 514 being a little less garbage while still being garbage?
Old Boil Earth, it wasn't impressive at all with lots of earth lore. I could get all 3 targets the spell would allow you to hit and all sorts of screen scroll looked amazing! That is, until you actually looked and saw that each creature was probably not stunned and/or damaged much. 514 is a situational spell (at best), even with lots of lore to a point you can get POUND to trigger 50% of the time. I generally just use 514 to smash feras/drake weapons that creatures drop. Then I don't have to worry about leaving them and having another creature picking them up.
I can concur that you weren't doing any fancy killing with high earth lore using old 917 or even 514. However, you were missing out on what 519 was capable of with high lore back in the day.
-Drumpel
Old Boil Earth, it wasn't impressive at all with lots of earth lore. I could get all 3 targets the spell would allow you to hit and all sorts of screen scroll looked amazing! That is, until you actually looked and saw that each creature was probably not stunned and/or damaged much. 514 is a situational spell (at best), even with lots of lore to a point you can get POUND to trigger 50% of the time. I generally just use 514 to smash feras/drake weapons that creatures drop. Then I don't have to worry about leaving them and having another creature picking them up.
I can concur that you weren't doing any fancy killing with high earth lore using old 917 or even 514. However, you were missing out on what 519 was capable of with high lore back in the day.
-Drumpel
TRIPLEGAME226
Re: The Single Target High Kill Ratio Challenge - Brief Tangent
04/29/2017 11:16 AM CDT
>Naw, my definition is my own, it's complete, and took 1 paragraph to explain. Immo to me is a mutant build and to you a specialization build. But we like labels
Healing empaths are mutants too. And Bone Shatter/Wither Empaths. And lockpicking rogues. And ambush rogues. And pure bards. And Savants. And Ardwen.
>I don't know why anyone would say that. There's only been a couple of 'no' comments that I think we need to account for. No to reverting 519. And no to single target 950
That's why I said decided instead of announced. He briefly mentioned it once and if I'm remembering right, never really responded to any "hey what about that 240 style booster thing?" follow ups. Same with trying to get his opinion on the ATTUNE phantom lore ranks idea. Of course it could also mean it's in the works and a nice surprise is on the way, but I'm not exactly expecting that.
>Stone Fist
New Stone Fist idea: Turns your hands into giant fists of stone that are weightless to the wizard, one hand with masterful crit weighting, the other with masterful damage weighting, and both with Blink flares. Also grants 500 phantom ranks of brawling, 100 ranks of multi-opponent combat, and increases strength by 250.
24 hour cooldown, 23h 59m duration, persists through death and is immune to dispel.
~ Methais
Healing empaths are mutants too. And Bone Shatter/Wither Empaths. And lockpicking rogues. And ambush rogues. And pure bards. And Savants. And Ardwen.
>I don't know why anyone would say that. There's only been a couple of 'no' comments that I think we need to account for. No to reverting 519. And no to single target 950
That's why I said decided instead of announced. He briefly mentioned it once and if I'm remembering right, never really responded to any "hey what about that 240 style booster thing?" follow ups. Same with trying to get his opinion on the ATTUNE phantom lore ranks idea. Of course it could also mean it's in the works and a nice surprise is on the way, but I'm not exactly expecting that.
>Stone Fist
New Stone Fist idea: Turns your hands into giant fists of stone that are weightless to the wizard, one hand with masterful crit weighting, the other with masterful damage weighting, and both with Blink flares. Also grants 500 phantom ranks of brawling, 100 ranks of multi-opponent combat, and increases strength by 250.
24 hour cooldown, 23h 59m duration, persists through death and is immune to dispel.
~ Methais
UMBDAY
Re: The Single Target High Kill Ratio Challenge - Brief Tangent
04/29/2017 12:31 PM CDT
>24 hour cooldown, 23h 59m duration, persists through death and is immune to dispel.
inb4 someone complains about having to wait around for a tedious 1 minute
inb4 someone complains about having to wait around for a tedious 1 minute
